collapse

* "Unable to verify referring url. Please go back and try again" Problem Logging In?

If you get an "Unable to verify referring url. Please go back and try again" error when you try to log in, you need to be sure you are accessing the board with a url that starts with "https://ecauldron.com".  If it starts with https://www.ecauldron.com" (or "http://www.ecauldron.com") you will get this error because "www.ecauldron.com" is not technically the same website as "ecauldron.com". Moving to the more secure "https" means it is more picky about such things.

Author Topic: Modern Human Needs and Hellenic Religion  (Read 12740 times)

Nyktelios

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 562
  • Total likes: 2
    • View Profile
Re: Modern Human Needs and Hellenic Religion
« Reply #15 on: July 10, 2011, 12:44:45 pm »
Quote from: sailor;3601
I disagree with the idea that ancient marriage was more a civil event rather than a religious event. Ancient marriage included various sacrifices to different gods which are religious items.  You couldn't go to the city clerk and register a marriage as a civil event.


Well, in ancient Athens, marriage involved a contract between the husband and the father of the bride to give her over for the ploughing of legitimate children, and then the transfer of the bride into her new husband's household. There were various traditions like taking ritual baths, the girl giving over her childhood items to Artemis, sacrificing to marriage gods like Zeus, Hera and Aphrodite, and having a procession to the new household throwing nuts and reciting marriage hymns, however, these were not required practices. Poorer couples probably would just start living together and consider themselves married, as in the ancient world, marriage was the act of living together.

sailor

  • Grand Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 1505
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Modern Human Needs and Hellenic Religion
« Reply #16 on: July 10, 2011, 04:38:30 pm »
Quote from: Carnelian;3606
Well, in ancient Athens, marriage involved a contract between the husband and the father of the bride to give her over for the ploughing of legitimate children, and then the transfer of the bride into her new husband's household. There were various traditions like taking ritual baths, the girl giving over her childhood items to Artemis, sacrificing to marriage gods like Zeus, Hera and Aphrodite, and having a procession to the new household throwing nuts and reciting marriage hymns, however, these were not required practices. Poorer couples probably would just start living together and consider themselves married, as in the ancient world, marriage was the act of living together.

 
Right, and all those "various traditions" are what makes it a religious event.  They didn't take the contract to the city-state clerk to be married. What you have described is also basically the same as a modern Jewish marriage.

Nyktelios

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 562
  • Total likes: 2
    • View Profile
Re: Modern Human Needs and Hellenic Religion
« Reply #17 on: July 10, 2011, 05:38:47 pm »
Quote from: sailor;3667
Right, and all those "various traditions" are what makes it a religious event.  They didn't take the contract to the city-state clerk to be married. What you have described is also basically the same as a modern Jewish marriage.

 
But the religious elements were optional and mostly performed for the marriages of wealthy people. There were no clergy needed to bless the union or pronounce them married. It was a legal matter and the act of living together, not a sacrament ordained by heaven.

Juniperberry

  • Grand Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Banned!
  • Posts: 1891
  • Total likes: 3
    • View Profile
Re: Modern Human Needs and Hellenic Religion
« Reply #18 on: July 10, 2011, 05:43:40 pm »
Quote from: xerces_blue;3588
This, all of this, plus some other things, is what keeps me from being a Hellenic Recon. There seems to be much cherry-picking, and clinging only to sources that support their view. I don't know if I've ever seen a Hellenic thread where anyone is agreement about anything. I'm not saying it just happens among Hellenic reconstructionists, it's just the recon group I'm most drawn to and therefore where I notice it most.

Because culture and religion are so connected, as it's been said already, especially in ancient religion, I think it's honestly close to impossible to reconstruct an ancient religion and still have it be relevent to the time and culture we live in today. I think we can take some elements from ancient Hellenic philosophy, world view, worship practices and so on and incorporate them into a modern practice, but I think in order for some things to be workable, they would need to be adapted to the point in which it would no longer be the original religion of the Greeks. So in other words, I think making an ancient religion relevant to modern times while keeping it faithful to the original is basically impossible.

I would go on more about the issues I see with reconstructionism, but it would be going on tangents unrelated to the topic of modern needs and Hellenic religion, so I'll save it for another thread, another time. :)


I think I'm getting a clearer picture as to why there's a lot of disillusionment towards recon...and maybe why recon is misunderstood even by those who attempt it.

Personally, I think cherry-picking what you want from the religious texts is fine because in most of these cultures, there wasn't one unified religious movement. It seems some of these extremeist recons are trying to create that, though.

From my understanding recon is about rediscovering the worldview of a culture... which is not the same thing as rebuilding the religion. It wasn't the belief sytstem that connected these people- different regions had different gods and festivals- but the underlying philosophy of the world did.

I saw upthread some mention about the calander and those strict adherents to it...and then of course the fact that there was Gregorian and Julian dating systems....anyways, as I understand recon, the point isn't to rebuild the same dating system the point would be to look at the purpose of the calendar. Obvious, to mark time. Why did they use it blahblahblah. Its really that simple. I, too, would be annoyed by those who wanted to reenact the details of these past cultures rather than reconstructing the worldview.

How we view the philosophy of the world is a completely different animal then laying down a law that Freyr is a fertility god (to use a recent example). How would Freyr, his function and myth fit into to overarching worldview is the real question. Especially for me, because I focus on continental Germanic and Freyr isn't a recognized god there, but its still a useful exploration because it informs me of the broader heathen philosophy.

So yes, you can cherry pick the religious expressions, but you have to maintain the cultural worldview. Does that make sense?

Anyway, I probably rambled, but I agree that when recon is misused than it isn't viable. Hope a non-hellenic response was appropriate here.
The pace of progress in artificial intelligence (I’m not referring to narrow AI) is incredibly fast. [...] The risk of something seriously dangerous happening is in the five year timeframe. 10 years at most.--Elon Musk

I am in the camp that is concerned about super intelligence," [Bill] Gates wrote. "First the machines will do a lot of jobs for us and not be super intelligent. That should be positive if we manage it well. A few decades after that though the intelligence is strong enough to be a concern. I agree with Elon Musk and some others on this and don\'t understand why some people are not concerned."

Nyktelios

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 562
  • Total likes: 2
    • View Profile
Re: Modern Human Needs and Hellenic Religion
« Reply #19 on: July 10, 2011, 06:30:44 pm »
Quote from: xerces_blue;3588
TI think we can take some elements from ancient Hellenic philosophy, world view, worship practices and so on and incorporate them into a modern practice, but I think in order for some things to be workable, they would need to be adapted to the point in which it would no longer be the original religion of the Greeks. So in other words, I think making an ancient religion relevant to modern times while keeping it faithful to the original is basically impossible.

 
Agreed.

Quote from: Juniperberry;3687
So yes, you can cherry pick the religious expressions, but you have to maintain the cultural worldview. Does that make sense?


The thing is, there was no singular coherent worldview even within one culture. Each polis, cult and philosophical school had its own way of viewing things, which is why I'm very wary of those Hellenic Recons who tote the idea of "The One True Hellenic Worldview". Recons can get a bit too dogmatic for my liking, which I think is the result of narrow scholarship, if any at all.

sailor

  • Grand Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 1505
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Modern Human Needs and Hellenic Religion
« Reply #20 on: July 10, 2011, 06:53:49 pm »
Quote from: Carnelian;3686
But the religious elements were optional and mostly performed for the marriages of wealthy people. There were no clergy needed to bless the union or pronounce them married. It was a legal matter and the act of living together, not a sacrament ordained by heaven.

 
You seem to be saying that poor people were atheists. If they didn't do the religious rites associated with marriage out of poverty, why would they be doing any religious rites, since those rites would be more frequent and thus more steady a drain on the family.

Also, they'd still have to have had somebody draw up and write the contract. Or did poor people just move in together with no fan fare?

Juniperberry

  • Grand Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Banned!
  • Posts: 1891
  • Total likes: 3
    • View Profile
Re: Modern Human Needs and Hellenic Religion
« Reply #21 on: July 10, 2011, 07:09:24 pm »
Quote from: Carnelian;3696




The thing is, there was no singular coherent worldview even within one culture. Each polis, cult and philosophical school had its own way of viewing things, which is why I'm very wary of those Hellenic Recons who tote the idea of "The One True Hellenic Worldview". Recons can get a bit too dogmatic for my liking, which I think is the result of narrow scholarship, if any at all.


Right. Even among a culture there will be variations, but there are some cognitive similarities which tie them all together under the Hellenic heading. To say there is "one true" worldview would be incorrect. The idea that its incorrect is basically what polytheism IS. To say (I only know heathen examples, forgive me) that Hulda and Hel are the same because they existed in heathenry and there's one world view is incorrect- the culture of the cont. Germans and Norse had differences and the various gods reflected this. There were differences in burial methods and after-life locations-the only commonality was the underlying philosophy that the dead remained here and could interact. That is heathen...how you chose to view this in a spiritual context is up to you and why there were varying methods and systems.

If the Hellenic culture saw "A=1" and had various systems for expressing this either through, laws, economy or gods, and then someone comes in and says. "A=2" then that wouldn't be consistent with the worldview. But expressing "A=1" in various systems and conceptions is accurate. Recons shouldn't say there is only one correct expression of that- the expression or detail isn't the relevant matter. The only purpose of going through those details with a finetooth comb is to uncover the larger philosophy.
The pace of progress in artificial intelligence (I’m not referring to narrow AI) is incredibly fast. [...] The risk of something seriously dangerous happening is in the five year timeframe. 10 years at most.--Elon Musk

I am in the camp that is concerned about super intelligence," [Bill] Gates wrote. "First the machines will do a lot of jobs for us and not be super intelligent. That should be positive if we manage it well. A few decades after that though the intelligence is strong enough to be a concern. I agree with Elon Musk and some others on this and don\'t understand why some people are not concerned."

Nyktelios

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 562
  • Total likes: 2
    • View Profile
Re: Modern Human Needs and Hellenic Religion
« Reply #22 on: July 10, 2011, 07:21:15 pm »
Quote from: sailor;3704
You seem to be saying that poor people were atheists. If they didn't do the religious rites associated with marriage out of poverty, why would they be doing any religious rites, since those rites would be more frequent and thus more steady a drain on the family.

Also, they'd still have to have had somebody draw up and write the contract. Or did poor people just move in together with no fan fare?

 
Goodness me, is this really such a hard concept, or do you just like to argue for the sake of it?

The common people did not have feasts and processions for their weddings because they were expensive and unnecessary, as there was no specific ceremony needed to consecrate a marriage. Two eligible citizens moving in together created a legal marriage, whether or not they had sacrifices and festivities to celebrate the occasion.

Also, the contracts were mainly oral agreements between the man and the bride's father, not an actual written contract, as paper was not in common use.

If you want to discuss this any further, I suggest making a new thread.

catja6

  • Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 380
  • Total likes: 1
    • View Profile
Re: Modern Human Needs and Hellenic Religion
« Reply #23 on: July 10, 2011, 07:35:41 pm »
Quote from: Carnelian;3696
Agreed.



The thing is, there was no singular coherent worldview even within one culture. Each polis, cult and philosophical school had its own way of viewing things, which is why I'm very wary of those Hellenic Recons who tote the idea of "The One True Hellenic Worldview". Recons can get a bit too dogmatic for my liking, which I think is the result of narrow scholarship, if any at all.

THANK YOU.  I start twitching every time Recons start going on about "worldview," as if that's some kind of coherent, identifiable thing.  The absolute best anyone can hope for is "these discourses/attitudes are attested to in the surviving texts, which can give us some clues as to X, Y, and Z." There's a tendency in Reconstructionism to act as if "common discourse" is the same thing as "worldview," and it really, really isn't.  You can CONSTRUCT a particular worldview from adopting and/or combining a variety of discourses/discursive formations, but that is not the same thing as "discovering" it.  It's especially frustrating seeing that among Hellenics, since coming up with new schools of philosophy and saying "screw you" to common attitudes was practically a blood sport in ancient Greece.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2011, 07:40:35 pm by catja6 »

Melamphoros

  • Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 2746
  • Total likes: 2
    • View Profile
Re: Modern Human Needs and Hellenic Religion
« Reply #24 on: July 10, 2011, 08:02:34 pm »
Quote from: catja6;3714
THANK YOU.  I start twitching every time Recons start going on about "worldview," as if that's some kind of coherent, identifiable thing.  The absolute best anyone can hope for is "these discourses/attitudes are attested to in the surviving texts, which can give us some clues as to X, Y, and Z." There's a tendency in Reconstructionism to act as if "common discourse" is the same thing as "worldview," and it really, really isn't.  You can CONSTRUCT a particular worldview from adopting and/or combining a variety of discourses/discursive formations, but that is not the same thing as "discovering" it.  It's especially frustrating seeing that among Hellenics, since coming up with new schools of philosophy and saying "screw you" to common attitudes was practically a blood sport in ancient Greece.

 
And I think this ties in with what you said on the old board about how dogmatic some Recons can be with regards to their chosen sources.  That they cling to it as "The One True Ancient Religion (TM)" even though archaeology and the like are constantly shining a new light on what actually happened and it may or may not contradict "The One True Ancient Religion (TM)."


Jesus saves, Allah forgives, Cthulhu thinks you will make a great sandwich.
My Spiritual Blog

Juniperberry

  • Grand Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Banned!
  • Posts: 1891
  • Total likes: 3
    • View Profile
Re: Modern Human Needs and Hellenic Religion
« Reply #25 on: July 10, 2011, 08:28:01 pm »
Quote from: catja6;3714
THANK YOU.  I start twitching every time Recons start going on about "worldview," as if that's some kind of coherent, identifiable thing.  


I'm confused. A simple Google search on "American worldview", "Muslim worldview","Chinese worldview" produces results of explanations, definitions, and examples of how language, art, economics, politics, laws and various other cultural aspects intersect to create a unique worldview. It seems to be fairly accepted and legitimate model of what makes a culture a culture; from preferred color of dress to class system.  What am I missing?


Quote
The absolute best anyone can hope for is "these discourses/attitudes are attested to in the surviving texts, which can give us some clues as to X, Y, and Z." There's a tendency in Reconstructionism to act as if "common discourse" is the same thing as "worldview,"


I think I understand what you're saying here. Heathens practice ansector veneration but it isn't unique to heathenry...all ancestor venerating paths do not consist as a singular worldview. What makes a worldview is how these common conceptions inform a multitude of aspects of a civilization to create a culture...and that culture exists within that shared worldview. Correct?

Quote
 You can CONSTRUCT a particular worldview from adopting and/or combining a variety of discourses/discursive formations, but that is not the same thing as "discovering" it.


Do you mean that some recons believe that the worldview is a separate entity existing outside of human creation that remains unchanged and impenetrable? That they can, basically, mine beneath the rubble and pull out the gem intact?

Definitely Worldviews were constantly shifting and changing and coming under influence of other emerging cultures and belief systems. Even the worldview of Christianity was transformed and reconfigured once it hit the Germanic culture. There's obviously a disconnect between the various Abrahamic faiths, and cultures don't remain static. Is it worthwhile for a recon to investigate these fluctuations and underlying veins of a culture that run throughout a system and attempt to reconstruct various attitudes and beliefs in a region? As someone interested in Southern Germany I try to pin-point one wave of that culture and worldview that resonates with me, and focus on that- without saying that is the current or past worldview of all  germanic history. What is the downfall in that approach?


Quote
It's especially frustrating seeing that among Hellenics, since coming up with new schools of philosophy and saying "screw you" to common attitudes was practically a blood sport in ancient Greece.


Normally I would assume that that blood-sport would then be classified as part of the worldview and an expression of that cultural commonality- and that you're stating to do otherwise falls outside if those boundaries of worldview. No?
The pace of progress in artificial intelligence (I’m not referring to narrow AI) is incredibly fast. [...] The risk of something seriously dangerous happening is in the five year timeframe. 10 years at most.--Elon Musk

I am in the camp that is concerned about super intelligence," [Bill] Gates wrote. "First the machines will do a lot of jobs for us and not be super intelligent. That should be positive if we manage it well. A few decades after that though the intelligence is strong enough to be a concern. I agree with Elon Musk and some others on this and don\'t understand why some people are not concerned."

drekfletch

  • Master Member
  • ******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Location: New England. On Winnipesaukee, to be more specific
  • Posts: 315
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 3
    • View Profile
  • Religion: Polytheist. Hellenic-ish
Re: Modern Human Needs and Hellenic Religion
« Reply #26 on: July 10, 2011, 09:21:13 pm »
Quote from: Juniperberry;3731
What am I missing?


The sheer diversity of cultures in a geographic "culture."  The generalites such a list is prone to.  In your American Culture list, there's probably nothing commenting on differences between the cultures of say, NY/LA, North/South.  There are big differences in the cultures of say, NewEngland and the BibleBelt.  But they're all American.

Calling apon a common Hellenic culture is like calling on a common Pagan culture.  Some of the ancient city-states were extremely different, sometimes going as far as to call the others barbarians.  Athens and Sparta are a good example.  Come to think of it, Greeker-than-thou wars have ancient precedent.

Quote from: Juniperberry;3731
Do you mean that some recons believe that the worldview is a separate entity existing outside of human creation that remains unchanged and impenetrable? That they can, basically, mine beneath the rubble and pull out the gem intact?


I've found some think there is one piece of rubble that speaks for all.

Quote from: Juniperberry;3731
Normally I would assume that that blood-sport would then be classified as part of the worldview and an expression of that cultural commonality- and that you're stating to do otherwise falls outside if those boundaries of worldview. No?

 
They did like their arguing.
There is no inherent meaning to life.  Stop looking and give your life meaning.
------------------------------------------
Chapter 91 of The Order War by L.E.Modesitt jr.  If I could quote the entire thing I would.

RandallS

  • Site Admin
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Location: NE Ohio
  • Posts: 10172
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 254
    • View Profile
  • Religion: Hellenic Pagan
Re: Modern Human Needs and Hellenic Religion
« Reply #27 on: July 10, 2011, 09:42:46 pm »
Quote from: Juniperberry;3731
It seems to be fairly accepted and legitimate model of what makes a culture a culture; from preferred color of dress to class system.  What am I missing?

I think you are missing that these "worldview" descriptions are someone's idea of an "average" American view. Averaging out the differences between states and regions of the country, averaging out the differences in views between rural parts of America and the urban areas, etc. There is no real single "American worldview" any more than there is a real American family with exactly 3.14 members (the average US family size in the year 2000).
Randall
RetroRoleplaying [Blog]: Microlite74/75/78/81, BX Advanced, and Other Old School Tabletop RPGs
Microlite20: Lots of Rules Lite Tabletop RPGs -- Many Free
OSR.SPACE: Old School Tabletop RPG Community

drekfletch

  • Master Member
  • ******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Location: New England. On Winnipesaukee, to be more specific
  • Posts: 315
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 3
    • View Profile
  • Religion: Polytheist. Hellenic-ish
Re: Modern Human Needs and Hellenic Religion
« Reply #28 on: July 10, 2011, 09:51:11 pm »
Quote from: sailor;3534
I always thought that extracting the values, ethics and religious orthopraxy from the culture was the goal of any recon religion; and then using what was extracted to create the modern religious practices.

 
That is difficult.  To keep with the reconstruction theme, think of building a house.  Say you're from Minnesota.  You've spent the last 10 years as an apprentice to a carpenter there.  You can design houses with the best of them.  Then you move to Arizona to live with your sweetheart.  If you try to use the same building techniques, it won't be a very comfortable house.  The climate is different enough that it's just not compatible.  Removing the bits you can use in Arizona will leave you with nothing much resembling a house from Minnesota.

So too with reconstructing ancient ways of including the Divinities in the cultural community.  Removing those ways into another cultural community puts a round peg in a square hole.  The goal of the reconstruction method is to figure out how the round peg fit into the round hole, and try to make a peg to fit into the square hole the same way.
There is no inherent meaning to life.  Stop looking and give your life meaning.
------------------------------------------
Chapter 91 of The Order War by L.E.Modesitt jr.  If I could quote the entire thing I would.

sailor

  • Grand Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 1505
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Modern Human Needs and Hellenic Religion
« Reply #29 on: July 10, 2011, 10:18:14 pm »
Quote from: drekfletch;3762


So too with reconstructing ancient ways of including the Divinities in the cultural community.  Removing those ways into another cultural community puts a round peg in a square hole.  The goal of the reconstruction method is to figure out how the round peg fit into the round hole, and try to make a peg to fit into the square hole the same way.

 
Not the way I always saw it.  You pull out a round peg that is 1.5 inches across, ancient Greek culture, etc. You then shape that round peg to fit the square hole that is 1.2 inches across. You end up with a peg that has square sides, but rounded corners.

That or I'm not visualizing your example about the pegs in the way you are thinking.

I definately don't get your house example.

Tags:
 

Related Topics

  Subject / Started by Replies Last post
6 Replies
977 Views
Last post April 01, 2012, 11:20:24 am
by R03e
3 Replies
3601 Views
Last post June 03, 2012, 11:26:02 am
by OpenHands
5 Replies
2040 Views
Last post November 14, 2012, 02:19:41 pm
by Frostfire
0 Replies
926 Views
Last post February 13, 2013, 01:49:20 pm
by RandallS
4 Replies
1470 Views
Last post March 06, 2015, 02:30:25 pm
by veggiewolf

Special Interest Group

Warning: You are currently in a Special Interest Group on the message board with special rules and focused discussions.

* Who's Online

  • Dot Guests: 15
  • Dot Hidden: 0
  • Dot Users: 0

There aren't any users online.

* Please Donate!

The Cauldron's server is expensive and requires monthly payments. Please become a Bronze, Silver or Gold Donor if you can. Donations are needed every month. Without member support, we can't afford the server.

* In Memoriam

Chavi (2006)
Elspeth (2010)
Marilyn (2013)

* Cauldron Staff

Host:
Sunflower

Message Board Staff
Board Coordinator:
Darkhawk

Assistant Board Coordinator:
Aster Breo

Senior Staff:
Aisling, Jenett, Sefiru

Staff:
Allaya, Chatelaine, EclecticWheel, HarpingHawke, Kylara, PerditaPickle, rocquelaire

Discord Chat Staff
Chat Coordinator:
Morag

Cauldron Council:
Bob, Catja, Emma-Eldritch, Fausta, Jubes, Kelly, LyricFox, Phouka, Sperran, Star, Steve, Tana

Site Administrator:
Randall