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Author Topic: Health: depression  (Read 3530 times)

Castus

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Re: depression
« Reply #15 on: June 04, 2017, 03:58:46 am »
xxx

Okaaaaaaaaaaay so I pressed "submit" by mistake and here we are. Pls ignore, and see the fully-completed text:


Also, just while I'm here and perusing this over half a decade old thread:

It is rather unfortunate that Nathen's post was the one you felt merited reviving this thread to respond to, since as Faemon politely noted several years ago, his post was complete garbage that demonstrated a staggering lack of understanding re: clinical depression. What is even more unfortunate is that you seem to have taken his failures and expanded upon them; rather than offering the critique which they so richly deserve. Honestly I am struggling to articulate how utterly terrible your post was in regards to giving practical advice about managing depression. It's like if someone asked you for an orange and you instead handed them a venomous snake that you just shook up in a bag.

If asked, I would say that one of the most harmful and possibly-lethal misconceptions about clinical depression is that you can just "get over it." Or, and I'm just tossing out possible examples here, the idea that a depressed person can simply "strive not to allow their pain and suffering to consume them... through Will, fortitude, resilience, some revisions to their Weltanschauung, etc.. and by making healthier choices." Is it important that someone suffering from depression be willing to make positive changes? Yes. If a person doesn't want to get better, they won't, and that's just the sum of it. But here's the thing: wanting to get better is the hard part. Speaking from my own perspective as someone who has suffered significantly from suicidal ideation, the "pull yourself up by the bootstraps" approach that you unabashedly advocate only does one thing:

-- it reinforces the already-everpresent feelings of guilt and/or self-loathing which are usually massive factors in suicidal ideation (you don't {want to} kill yourself if you think you're a swell person) when someone inevitably can't just ~~*Will*~~ away their crippling mental illness

One of the other big problems that people don't understand -- and it should be noted that I'm speaking entirely within the context of depressive suicidality for this entire post; and that not all people with clinical depression are suicidal and not all suicidal people have clinical depression -- that suicidal people live in a world of inverted values. Everything is different. One of the fundamental underlying principles of human behaviour -- that living is preferable to dying -- is completely turned on its head. To better illustrate this, let us indulge in a little call-and-response. You will recognise some slightly edited excerpts from your own post, and underneath will be the italicised response of a hypothetical suicidal person; drawn of course from my own experiences.

"Don't underestimate the strength of your own Will, and your own ability to help yourself."

I don't want to help myself. I don't want to do anything. I want to die. Just sink into a warm and embracing darkness and nothingness. For fuck's sake you don't get it, do you?

"Way too often, people underestimate the extent of their own ability to shape and manipulate their own experience of life (or the lives of those around them)... but all too often, people expect others to resolve their issues for them."

No, again you completely ignore the actual reality. I want to resolve my issues, and it isn't as if I'm thinking 'oh no, I just don't have it in me to push through my problems'. No. I want to resolve my issues by killing myself because it's the only thing that will quiet my thoughts. When every 20 seconds you're assaulted, unbidden, with a vivid image of killing yourself with whatever is in the particular room you're in it has nothing to do with 'shaping my own experience of life'. It has to do with trying to stop the flood of emotions and the riotous explosions of thoughts and feelings that never goes away. It has to do with being quiet.

"Pain, suffering, and conflict do far more for our (personal and collective) evolution than happiness does.  It often gives us way more incentive to create significant and incredible change in our lives, than happiness does."

Yeah, that sounds like something someone unfamiliar with suffering and pain would say. I know that it is true in some cases, yes. But I also know that sobbing hysterically in a literal padded room because you're legitimately convinced you're going insane, and wanting to kill yourself so desperately it feels like you're drowning for every moment you're still alive, isn't an incentive for jack shit. It just sucks. Sometimes pain and suffering just fucking blow.

"So, one can strive not to allow their pain and suffering to consume them... through Will, fortitude, resilience, some revisions to their Weltanschauung, etc.. and by making healthier choices... but one can also look for ways embrace and utilize that pain, suffering, and conflict, which may amplify one's ability to bring about some much desired changes in life."

Ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. Sorry, I was just having a giggle there. It helps quiet the insatiable yearning for inky nonexistence that characterises my every waking moment. Anyway. Yeah, no, again, I want it to consume me, because it's doing that anyway and I'm tired of fighting. So meh.

TL;DR your post was awful and completely out of touch with reality and please, please never talk to actually depressed or suicidal people if pseudo-Thelemic, by-your-bootstraps nonsense with just a dash of "weltanschauung" used completely out of its original context in what I can only assume is a desperate attempt to sound cultured, is the only thing you're gonna be dishing out.
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missgraceless

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Re: depression
« Reply #16 on: June 04, 2017, 09:50:44 am »


Okaaaaaaaaaaay so I pressed "submit" by mistake and here we are. Pls ignore, and see the fully-completed text:

Oh, Castus, you never fail to tell it exactly how it is and this is why we love you.
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SunflowerP

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Re: depression
« Reply #17 on: June 05, 2017, 03:50:23 am »
It is rather unfortunate that Nathen's post was the one you felt merited reviving this thread to respond to, since as Faemon politely noted several years ago, his post was complete garbage that demonstrated a staggering lack of understanding re: clinical depression. What is even more unfortunate is that you seem to have taken his failures and expanded upon them; rather than offering the critique which they so richly deserve.

And the cherry on top is that Nathen was a spammer.

Your rebuttal of the Healthist misconceptions was excellent, though, Castus. I experience depression differently than you do, but your account is still much truer to my experience than the blame-y shame-y misconceptions put forth by Nathen the Spammer and endorsed and expanded on by Ashtara.

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Goddess_Ashtara

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Re: depression
« Reply #18 on: June 05, 2017, 05:22:40 am »
And the cherry on top is that Nathen was a spammer.

Your rebuttal of the Healthist misconceptions was excellent, though, Castus. I experience depression differently than you do, but your account is still much truer to my experience than the blame-y shame-y misconceptions put forth by Nathen the Spammer and endorsed and expanded on by Ashtara.

Sunflower

I have never heard the term "Healthist" before.  Is that an attempt to make somebody feel guilty for making healthier choices?

Regardless, my post here was a suggestion for people to not underestimate their own ability to help themselves.  I never said that all of their issues can or should be faced alone.  If someone decides to see a therapist or take medicine for their depression, the things I suggested certainly can supplement their regimen.

Throughout my experience of life, there have been and will continue to be those who receive and interpret my messages in a way that empowers them.  And that does- in some small way that I do not completely understand- make me feel good for them... despite whatever indifference I might have regarding their suffering, or continued existence.

« Last Edit: June 05, 2017, 05:26:23 am by Goddess_Ashtara »
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