Author Topic: Morrighan attested in Wales? (Read 2798 times)

cigfran · « **on:** March 08, 2012, 07:48:31 am »

According to Proinsias MacCana, the Morrighan is a sort of pan-Celtic goddess: "that they are known throughout the Celtic world is virtually certain." But the name is Irish, and all the references are to Irish stories.

Is there in fact any significant support for the Morrighan as a figure in Welsh mythology and hence, polytheistic practice centered on Welsh culture? In a casual review, I can't really find any.

I wish there were a Welsh Simek.

Seren · « **Reply #1 on:** March 08, 2012, 03:34:58 pm »

Quote from: cigfran;45255

According to Proinsias MacCana, the Morrighan is a sort of pan-Celtic goddess: "that they are known throughout the Celtic world is virtually certain." But the name is Irish, and all the references are to Irish stories.

Is there in fact any significant support for the Morrighan as a figure in Welsh mythology and hence, polytheistic practice centered on Welsh culture? In a casual review, I can't really find any.

I wish there were a Welsh Simek.

Mac Cana's kind of old school these days and he was writing that at a time when pan-Celticism was all the rage. These days academia tends to emphasise the differences between different Celtic cultures, and deities that may be similar in name and function often have some significant variations as well. So whereas Lugus/Lugh/Llew might be said to be the same by pan-Celticists (or some soft polytheists), others wouldn't. Likewise for the Morrígan. She isn't referred to explicitly in Welsh myth, although you might find deities who share similar functions.

cigfran · « **Reply #2 on:** March 08, 2012, 03:58:41 pm »

Quote from: Seren;45287

Mac Cana's kind of old school these days and he was writing that at a time when pan-Celticism was all the rage. These days academia tends to emphasise the differences between different Celtic cultures, and deities that may be similar in name and function often have some significant variations as well. So whereas Lugus/Lugh/Llew might be said to be the same by pan-Celticists (or some soft polytheists), others wouldn't. Likewise for the Morrígan. She isn't referred to explicitly in Welsh myth, although you might find deities who share similar functions.

Thank you, Seren, particularly for the insight on how to read MacCana.

I think the Morrighan is in even more trouble than Lugh, in this regard... other than that one false cognate, there really seems to be little crossover for her (them?).

Follow-up question, if I may (I'll be reading up on this ASAP but thought I'd ask since I was here): does Cerridwen have... um... provenance? Is she even mentioned outside the Black Book of Carmarthen?

(BTW, total aside from a non-Gaelic speaker... can someone please indicate how to actually pronounce 'Proinsias'?)

Celtag · « **Reply #3 on:** March 08, 2012, 05:22:29 pm »

Quote from: cigfran;45289

Thank you, Seren, particularly for the insight on how to read MacCana.

I think the Morrighan is in even more trouble than Lugh, in this regard... other than that one false cognate, there really seems to be little crossover for her (them?).

Follow-up question, if I may (I'll be reading up on this ASAP but thought I'd ask since I was here): does Cerridwen have... um... provenance? Is she even mentioned outside the Black Book of Carmarthen?

(BTW, total aside from a non-Gaelic speaker... can someone please indicate how to actually pronounce 'Proinsias'?)

Aeron, though not a Goddess by a God was the Brythonic God of Battle & Slaughter.

cigfran · « **Reply #4 on:** March 08, 2012, 08:48:33 pm »

Quote from: cigfran;45289

Follow-up question, if I may (I'll be reading up on this ASAP but thought I'd ask since I was here): does Cerridwen have... um... provenance? Is she even mentioned outside the Black Book of Carmarthen?

I should say "in a primary source with earlier background than..." and so on. Outside of the Tale of Taliesin.

Celtag · « **Reply #5 on:** March 08, 2012, 08:56:08 pm »

Quote from: cigfran;45311

I should say "in a primary source with earlier background than..." and so on. Outside of the Tale of Taliesin.

She also occurs in the tale of the legend of Bran the Blessed.

cigfran · « **Reply #6 on:** March 08, 2012, 09:39:34 pm »

Quote from: Celtag;45313

She also occurs in the tale of the legend of Bran the Blessed.

You know, I wish I had spent as time reading this material as I did the Greek myths when I was a kid. I just don't have the structure of the corpus in my head.

readreadreadreadread...

Celtag · « **Reply #7 on:** March 08, 2012, 10:38:13 pm »

Quote from: cigfran;45315

You know, I wish I had spent as time reading this material as I did the Greek myths when I was a kid. I just don't have the structure of the corpus in my head.

readreadreadreadread...

Yeah i read a lot of Greek mythology when i was a kid to. I'm catching up on Celtic Mythology as we speak, still have a way to go on it though.

Micheál · « **Reply #8 on:** March 09, 2012, 01:18:17 am »

Quote from: cigfran;45289

(BTW, total aside from a non-Gaelic speaker... can someone please indicate how to actually pronounce 'Proinsias'?)

In phonetic attempt, it sounds like "prone-shish."

Sharysa · « **Reply #9 on:** March 15, 2012, 02:03:28 am »

Quote from: cigfran;45289

I think the Morrighan is in even more trouble than Lugh, in this regard... other than that one false cognate, there really seems to be little crossover for her (them?).

Follow-up question, if I may (I'll be reading up on this ASAP but thought I'd ask since I was here): does Cerridwen have... um... provenance? Is she even mentioned outside the Black Book of Carmarthen?

(BTW, total aside from a non-Gaelic speaker... can someone please indicate how to actually pronounce 'Proinsias'?)

Depending on if it has accents and where the accents are, it's either "Prin-shees(h)" or "Prun-shus(h)."

Although you might not want to take my input too readily--I've only been studying Irish sporadically, and the pronunciation alone is really hard to memorize.

Cainogenos · « **Reply #10 on:** March 26, 2012, 01:20:01 pm »

Quote from: cigfran;45255

According to Proinsias MacCana, the Morrighan is a sort of pan-Celtic goddess: "that they are known throughout the Celtic world is virtually certain." But the name is Irish, and all the references are to Irish stories.

Is there in fact any significant support for the Morrighan as a figure in Welsh mythology and hence, polytheistic practice centered on Welsh culture? In a casual review, I can't really find any.

I wish there were a Welsh Simek.

I am familiar with The Morrigan in other forms such as Cathubodua and Andarta in Gaul, and I believe possibly in Briton. Are you familiar with the Brython Forum?

http://caerfeddwyd.proboards.com/index.cgi

They work with pre-welsh brythonic polytheistic reconstructionism. I can highly recommend them