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Author Topic: Wiccan creation Myth  (Read 6095 times)

Laramath

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Wiccan creation Myth
« on: March 28, 2012, 03:20:19 pm »
Hello everyone. As I was skimming through some wiccan books searching for sacred texts (the Rede, the witche's rune and such) I found the Wiccan Creation Myth in Silver Ravenwolf's "The complete Book of Shadows for the Solitary Witch". I'm not too fond of her, and as I read along the text that I already knew I found some things that I don't feel too confortable with, so I'm looking for other creation myths within wiccan cosmology, or other versions of this same myth to analyse different authors approach.

Do you know where may I find them?

This version is quite long, (about two pages) and states angels, and dialogue between the Gods and humans.

Thanks a lot!
"Omnia vivunt omnia inter se conexa" Cicero

monsnoleedra

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Re: Wiccan creation Myth
« Reply #1 on: March 28, 2012, 04:02:01 pm »
Quote from: Laramath;47849
.. Do you know where may I find them?  ..


While there might be some inner court beliefs about a creation story I do not know of any universal Wiccan creation story.  Most seem to hive off of what ever pantheon they follow in my experience.

MadZealot

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Re: Wiccan creation Myth
« Reply #2 on: March 28, 2012, 10:06:28 pm »
Quote from: monsnoleedra;47868
While there might be some inner court beliefs about a creation story I do not know of any universal Wiccan creation story.  Most seem to hive off of what ever pantheon they follow in my experience.


I just checked with a buddy of mine who has been Wiccan for 25 years.  According to him, nothing of the type in Gardner's writings.  
The 'myth' in Silver's book is probably her own creation.  Starhawk had one in one of her books too.
Spider Man 3 never happened. Change my mind.

monsnoleedra

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Re: Wiccan creation Myth
« Reply #3 on: March 28, 2012, 11:14:38 pm »
Quote from: MadZealot;47927
I just checked with a buddy of mine who has been Wiccan for 25 years.  According to him, nothing of the type in Gardner's writings.  
The 'myth' in Silver's book is probably her own creation.  Starhawk had one in one of her books too.


That's what I though.  It's like I can't think of a universal concept of where Wiccan's go when they die.  I hear a lot speak of the Summerlands but the Summerlands is not really universal in my understanding to all Wiccan's or practitioners of Wicca.  

Even that concept I wonder about as it bears such a close resemblence to the Cavalry concept of being the only ones who are not destined for heaven or hell.  All the cavalrymen get to stop on the prarie and spend their eternity in a place that was similiar to the notion of the Summerlands and souded close to it in name (Fiddler's Green).

Well Cavalrymen and Sailor's when they die as it is a place halfway between heaven and hell, a green meadow surrounded by tree's with a pub or canteen in the middle.  Everything a rough man can wish for is there; Beer, Rum, Tobacco and women and probably lots of music.

Though I doubt that most will acknowledge that the concept for the Summerlands originated in Theosophy and is also refered to as THE ASTRAL PLANE a place where souls who have been good in their previous lives go between incarnations.

MadZealot

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Re: Wiccan creation Myth
« Reply #4 on: March 28, 2012, 11:44:55 pm »
Quote from: monsnoleedra;47943
That's what I though.  It's like I can't think of a universal concept of where Wiccan's go when they die.  I hear a lot speak of the Summerlands but the Summerlands is not really universal in my understanding to all Wiccan's or practitioners of Wicca.  

Reincarnation is another belief that may or may not be universal.  

I'd suggest reading up on Gardner and his works.  If nothing else you'll get a handle on what Wicca was intended to be (commonly referred to as BTW nowadays) as opposed to the religious polyglot that is today's Wicca-of-many-colors.
Spider Man 3 never happened. Change my mind.

earth_dragon

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Re: Wiccan creation Myth
« Reply #5 on: March 29, 2012, 12:38:06 am »
Quote from: Laramath;47849
Hello everyone. As I was skimming through some wiccan books searching for sacred texts (the Rede, the witche's rune and such) I found the Wiccan Creation Myth in Silver Ravenwolf's "The complete Book of Shadows for the Solitary Witch". I'm not too fond of her, and as I read along the text that I already knew I found some things that I don't feel too confortable with, so I'm looking for other creation myths within wiccan cosmology, or other versions of this same myth to analyse different authors approach.

Do you know where may I find them?

This version is quite long, (about two pages) and states angels, and dialogue between the Gods and humans.

Thanks a lot!

 
I've been Wiccan for many years, and I've not really come across anything you're describing either. Like others have said, I think the myth you found was created by that particular author. Like you, I've also heard of The Summerlands, and reincarnation, but nothing seems to be universal. Sorry I'm not of more help, but there just really doesn't seem to be anything out there.

monsnoleedra

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Re: Wiccan creation Myth
« Reply #6 on: March 29, 2012, 01:04:18 am »
Quote from: earth_dragon;47956
I've been Wiccan for many years, and I've not really come across anything you're describing either. Like others have said, I think the myth you found was created by that particular author. Like you, I've also heard of The Summerlands, and reincarnation, but nothing seems to be universal. Sorry I'm not of more help, but there just really doesn't seem to be anything out there.


It's strange I suppose but one of the reason I heard so many had issues with Wicca was because it didn't address the notion of a creation myth and a more defined notion of an afterlife.  In some ways the whole cosmology of the system is one of the reasons it fails around the equatorial regions and has never really caught on in those areas.

earth_dragon

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Re: Wiccan creation Myth
« Reply #7 on: March 29, 2012, 01:20:27 am »
Quote from: monsnoleedra;47960
It's strange I suppose but one of the reason I heard so many had issues with Wicca was because it didn't address the notion of a creation myth and a more defined notion of an afterlife.  In some ways the whole cosmology of the system is one of the reasons it fails around the equatorial regions and has never really caught on in those areas.

 
No, that's not strange at all, and in fact, is something I struggled with too. I don't know if I would consider myself Wiccan so much anymore. I guess I'm more eclectic Pagan. I've been feeling the call of several things lately, Wicca being only one amongst them. I was mainly drawn into Wicca because of the idea of balance. I love that and am comforted by it. But lack of its own creation and mythology in Wicca is something I struggle with.

monsnoleedra

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Re: Wiccan creation Myth
« Reply #8 on: March 29, 2012, 01:46:01 am »
Quote from: MadZealot;47949
Reincarnation is another belief that may or may not be universal.  

I'd suggest reading up on Gardner and his works.  If nothing else you'll get a handle on what Wicca was intended to be (commonly referred to as BTW nowadays) as opposed to the religious polyglot that is today's Wicca-of-many-colors.

Bolded Mine.

The bolded part is one of the reasons I seldom get into discussions of Wicca today.  I was never Wiccan so do not have that baggage facet of things.  Yet I do come from a lineaged family tradition so think that as a mystery tradition with an established lineage / structure anything that doesn't hold to that is not really Wicca.  

Yet that tends to be a very unfavored position to take with all the self initiated / self dedicated people who now claim to be Wiccan's.  That not even considering all the Wiccan in name only as they create their own pathways and lay claim to the name.

I pretty much got tired of saying I don't care what their pathway is or how they walk it as that is personal to them.  But by description they do not follow an initiatory mystical system composed of recognized lineages with recognized parameters and semi-dogma. It all goes back to the ever popular argument that you can't tell them what to believe or how to believe but your supposed to accept it regardless of what or how you believe.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2012, 01:46:44 am by monsnoleedra »

MadZealot

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Re: Wiccan creation Myth
« Reply #9 on: March 29, 2012, 02:17:53 am »
Quote from: monsnoleedra;47966
Bolded Mine.

The bolded part is one of the reasons I seldom get into discussions of Wicca today.  I was never Wiccan so do not have that baggage facet of things.  Yet I do come from a lineaged family tradition so think that as a mystery tradition with an established lineage / structure anything that doesn't hold to that is not really Wicca.  

Yet that tends to be a very unfavored position to take with all the self initiated / self dedicated people who now claim to be Wiccan's.  That not even considering all the Wiccan in name only as they create their own pathways and lay claim to the name.

I pretty much got tired of saying I don't care what their pathway is or how they walk it as that is personal to them.  But by description they do not follow an initiatory mystical system composed of recognized lineages with recognized parameters and semi-dogma. It all goes back to the ever popular argument that you can't tell them what to believe or how to believe but your supposed to accept it regardless of what or how you believe.

It's not a disctinction I usually make.  I was a member of an 'eclectic' coven for a time.  Much of it was Wiccan, but at the same time it was not Wicca as Gardner envisioned.  For that reason I don't refer to myself as Wiccan today.  Wicc-ish, at best.

A religion and grow and evolve, as does the terminology surrounding it. I felt it best, for the OP's benefit, to explain the differences between Wicca's original form and later permutations which lay claim to the name. If there is curiosity about Wicca's myths I think it best to go straight to the source, or as close to it as possible, rather than a later, tangential, attachment to the religion.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2012, 02:23:42 am by MadZealot »
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MadZealot

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Re: Wiccan creation Myth
« Reply #10 on: March 29, 2012, 02:22:09 am »
Quote from: monsnoleedra;47966
Bolded Mine.

The bolded part is one of the reasons I seldom get into discussions of Wicca today.  I was never Wiccan so do not have that baggage facet of things.  Yet I do come from a lineaged family tradition so think that as a mystery tradition with an established lineage / structure anything that doesn't hold to that is not really Wicca.  

Yet that tends to be a very unfavored position to take with all the self initiated / self dedicated people who now claim to be Wiccan's.  That not even considering all the Wiccan in name only as they create their own pathways and lay claim to the name.

I pretty much got tired of saying I don't care what their pathway is or how they walk it as that is personal to them.  But by description they do not follow an initiatory mystical system composed of recognized lineages with recognized parameters and semi-dogma. It all goes back to the ever popular argument that you can't tell them what to believe or how to believe but your supposed to accept it regardless of what or how you believe.

It's not a disctinction I usually make.  I was a member of an 'eclectic' coven for a time.  Much of it was Wiccan, but at the same time it was not Wicca as Gardner envisioned.  For that reason I don't refer to myself as Wiccan today.  Wicc-ish, at best.

A religion and grow and evolve, as does the terminology surrounding it.  I felt it best, for the OP's benefit, to explain the differences between Wicca's original form and later permutations which lay claim to the name.  If there is curiosity about Wicca's myths I think it best to go straight to the source, or as close to it as possible, rather than a later, tangential, attachment to the religion.

WHOOPS.  Double post.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2012, 02:24:15 am by MadZealot »
Spider Man 3 never happened. Change my mind.

Micheál

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Re: Wiccan creation Myth
« Reply #11 on: March 29, 2012, 03:36:04 am »
Quote from: Laramath;47849
so I'm looking for other creation myths within wiccan cosmology, or other versions of this same myth to analyse different authors approach.
Do you know where may I find them?

There is oral lore&charges related a bit to such things, but it would still be hard to call a 'Creation myth.' Although we have specific oathbound deities, Wicca's emphasis is still on its practice, being orthopraxic, leaving many things open to personal interpretation to seek out within one'self.

The concept of the Summerlands mentioned are known, which was a label borrowed from Spiritualism. For someone in your position the known material you might find inspirational would be the Legend of the Descent of the Goddess, which mirrors Inanna's Descent into the Underworld, and the legend in Aradia:The Gospel of the Witches , unless you planned on seeking out a specific tradition of Wicca.

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Re: Wiccan creation Myth
« Reply #12 on: March 29, 2012, 07:32:01 am »
Quote from: Laramath;47849
Hello everyone. As I was skimming through some wiccan books searching for sacred texts (the Rede, the witche's rune and such) I found the Wiccan Creation Myth in Silver Ravenwolf's "The complete Book of Shadows for the Solitary Witch". I'm not too fond of her, and as I read along the text that I already knew I found some things that I don't feel too confortable with, so I'm looking for other creation myths within wiccan cosmology, or other versions of this same myth to analyse different authors approach.

Do you know where may I find them?


I'm not Wiccan, but a Wiccan-ish pagan who writes his own myths. Here's an early iteration of the creation myth I wrote:

http://www.ecauldron.com/forum/showthread.php?2904-mythic-stories&p=46619&viewfull=1#post46619
The first song sets the wheel in motion / The second is a song of love / The third song tells of Her devotion / The fourth cries joy from the sky above
The fifth song binds our fate to silence / and bids us live each moment well / The sixth unleashes rage and violence / The seventh song has truth to tell
The last song echoes through the ages / to ask its question all night long / And close the circle on these pages / These, the metamythos songs

Nyktelios

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Re: Wiccan creation Myth
« Reply #13 on: March 29, 2012, 12:02:36 pm »
Quote from: Laramath;47849
Hello everyone. As I was skimming through some wiccan books searching for sacred texts (the Rede, the witche's rune and such) I found the Wiccan Creation Myth in Silver Ravenwolf's "The complete Book of Shadows for the Solitary Witch". I'm not too fond of her, and as I read along the text that I already knew I found some things that I don't feel too confortable with, so I'm looking for other creation myths within wiccan cosmology, or other versions of this same myth to analyse different authors approach.

Do you know where may I find them?

This version is quite long, (about two pages) and states angels, and dialogue between the Gods and humans.

Thanks a lot!

Like others have said, there isn't a canonical creation myth, but there are many that can be incorporated into the system. Starhawk has one in her Spiral Dance book, although she's a Feri initiate rather than strictly Wiccan. It basically describes how the Great Goddess parthenogenetically (through virgin birth) gives birth to the God from her own desire, and this divine birth brings forth the creation of the universe because the God is the spirit of all things that living things, which go through cycles of death and rebirth.

There are similarities in Greek myth, for example, when Gaia emerges from Khaos and parthenogenetically gives birth to her son-husband Ouranos, god of heaven, and together they give birth to titans, and are the grandparents of the Olympian gods. Another version has Nyx (Night) give birth to the cosmic egg, from which the primordial god Phanes (another name for Eros) arises along with the rest of creation. There's a hymn at the temple to Isis at Philae that I really like that is along these lines, which goes as follows:

He comes into being
the god is born
the King of Upper and Lower Egypt
Horus, son of Isis
Through his existence
everything has begun


from here: http://www.philae.nu/philae/hiero1.html
« Last Edit: March 29, 2012, 12:03:04 pm by Nyktelios »

Laramath

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Re: Wiccan creation Myth
« Reply #14 on: March 29, 2012, 02:58:14 pm »
Quote from: MadZealot;47968

A religion and grow and evolve, as does the terminology surrounding it. I felt it best, for the OP's benefit, to explain the differences between Wicca's original form and later permutations which lay claim to the name. If there is curiosity about Wicca's myths I think it best to go straight to the source, or as close to it as possible, rather than a later, tangential, attachment to the religion.

 
Man... this will be difficult to explain in another language. I'll Try.

I think that Wicca is, as any other, an evolving religion, and it is passing through a really intense evolving phase which I assume to be normal under all the conditions and variables that influence this religious movement as social, spiritual, theological and historical movement (nothing new here as it happens to all religions).

The point about if someone is wicca or not is SO ambiguous, even if you ask, at least lets say, ten Traditional Wiccans even they have different oppinions about where is the line that contains and limits Wicca (maybe ten is a too small number), but even then there are different postures in traditional wicca (taking that as "true wicca" only for this example), and even taking one representative person like Janet Farrar for example, she stated wicca as something different then, when she had the coven with Stuart and what she wrote in the witch's bible, that what she stated 10 years after and what she states today.

By mentioning all this relativity i'm not trying to make the typical "so everything is valid" point (which I don't believe at all) but to explain how ambiguous Wicca has got, even from the inside, even from the source. Sometimes I ask myself if Gardner really had it clear when he wrapped up "wicca" (he didn't even knew where that was going). I don't think I can rely on gardner's writtings as "the last word" as his writtings are to wicca nowadays as a tree looks like it's original seed.

The first thing that started unblocking the question was: In what moment did wiccans start to feel wicca as a religion with a cosmology APART from it's mother, witchcraft? (which is outlined by folk magic and local cosmology) didn't it evolve from witchcraft according to Gardner's vision? (although we know it has too much ceremonial magic, crowley/golden dawn, masonry, etc) Then should wicca really have its own creation myth? is wicca then a practice with dogma or a religion without myths, is that really a religion at all?  

Is wiccan vision really a generic shamanistish/witchcraftish "religion"? What is really wicca then? Some wiccans have the *wiccan pantheon* (as if this exists) with two determined gods (who have secret names of course), others believe that there is only one spirit whith many facets, others think all the gods and goddesses are separate defined entities, and they all say they are wiccans and follow wicca (I totally agree when you said not all wiccans have the same cosmology about the afterlife, reincarnation or if that has anything to do with morals).

Very far from the "iniciated=wiccan / autodedicated= :confused:" drama I think that wicca needs to be formed, outlined, and I don't think it can be done from gardner's works only and by whom? with what authority? Trad wiccans don't even use that word for themselves to begin with.

It is very exciting to find how deep a question goes! I've returned to this point so many times that I don't consider myself a "true wiccan" (if that exists) but not because I don't have an initiation but because I think Wicca as itself is a very shapeless, fast evolving, everchanging ¿religion?

I have a LOT to think about, ¡thankyou!
"Omnia vivunt omnia inter se conexa" Cicero

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