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Poll

Whose Side were You On?

chaeans
4 (15.4%)
rojans
22 (84.6%)

Total Members Voted: 26

Author Topic: Whose Side of the Trojan War are You On?  (Read 2659 times)

Melamphoros

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Re: Whose Side of the Trojan War are You On?
« Reply #15 on: April 12, 2013, 03:03:35 pm »
Quote from: Astani;105122
That would've made for a very short book then haha! I'm not too far in the Iliad (I think I'm way past the part where Aphrodite got attacked by Ajax(?)) but what makes you say Helen is a sociopath? All I remember getting from her is that she's kinda bleh and scared of Aphrodite.


To me, it seemed as though she was completely indifferent to the death and suffering she caused.  The only death I can think of in the entire war when she felt anything was Hector's.  There is also the matter of her helping a disguised Odysseus out of Troy one moment and trying to cause those hidden in the Trojan Horse to expose themselves the next.

Quote

I'd have given Hera the apple, too, actually. Hers was the best prize I think. But then you could also get to be king by winning wars so maybe Athena's... haha I can't pick.

 
See my post above regarding the soon-to-arrive Sea Peoples.


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Re: Whose Side of the Trojan War are You On?
« Reply #16 on: April 12, 2013, 04:29:03 pm »
Quote from: Melamphoros;105127
To me, it seemed as though she was completely indifferent to the death and suffering she caused.

 
I frankly can't blame a woman for coming across poorly in Greek work.  Whether or not Helen cared about the death and suffering was likely a matter of complete unconcern to Homer, so why bother writing about it?

(I am also a little cautious around 'she caused' here, for similar reasons.)
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catja6

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Re: Whose Side of the Trojan War are You On?
« Reply #17 on: April 12, 2013, 06:23:17 pm »
Quote from: Darkhawk;105138
I frankly can't blame a woman for coming across poorly in Greek work.  Whether or not Helen cared about the death and suffering was likely a matter of complete unconcern to Homer, so why bother writing about it?

(I am also a little cautious around 'she caused' here, for similar reasons.)

 
Same here. Helen's myths and cultus were pretty complicated--more so than the literary works, and even those were themselves complex and contradictory. But the Greeks never let the opportunity for misogyny and slut-shaming pass them by, and that grand tradition has carried on throughout Western history's response to Helen.  Because, seriously, like the Achaens would have had ABSOLUTELY NO REASON to want to, I don't know, attempt to conquer their biggest fricking rival in the area? If only that  "floozy" had kept her legs shut! (Never mind that she doesn't go willingly with Paris in several versions, she definitely wasn't married to Menelaus of her own free will in most versions, and she'd already been raped by Theseus while still a child.) Every attempt, ancient and modern, to "blame" Helen is an epic case of buck-passing.

MattyG

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Re: Whose Side of the Trojan War are You On?
« Reply #18 on: April 12, 2013, 07:03:49 pm »
Quote from: Astani;105055
This is just for fun. Your reasons could be as simple as I worship this god, etc. I, for one, sided with the Trojans because I liked the pairing of Helen and Paris :)

 
I'm really on the Cyclop's side. Dude just wants to herd his sheep in peace, and all of a sudden dudes come out of nowhere and gouge his eyes out. He's the real victim of the Trojan war.

DashesAgainst

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Re: Whose Side of the Trojan War are You On?
« Reply #19 on: April 12, 2013, 09:34:34 pm »
Quote from: FierFlye;105106
Yes! Hector, woooooo! Hector is one of the few characters in the story I sympathized with.

Agamemnon was an ass, Achilles acted like a pouty drama queen. Granted I couldn't stand Paris either. I think the Trojans should have thrown him out on his delicate buttocks.


Yep, I agree!   +1 for the Trojans!
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Astani

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Re: Whose Side of the Trojan War are You On?
« Reply #20 on: April 13, 2013, 02:37:24 pm »
Quote from: Melamphoros;105127

See my post above regarding the soon-to-arrive Sea Peoples.

 
Ah... well, hopefully I'll have a good ride before then haha.

Quote
There is also the matter of her helping a disguised Odysseus out of Troy one moment and trying to cause those hidden in the Trojan Horse to expose themselves the next.


Okay that does sound a little sociopath-y.

Quote from: Darkhawk;105138
I frankly can't blame a woman for coming across poorly in Greek work.  Whether or not Helen cared about the death and suffering was likely a matter of complete unconcern to Homer, so why bother writing about it?

(I am also a little cautious around 'she caused' here, for similar reasons.)

 
Agreed. I'm of the opinion though that Paris caused the war. (Hell we could go further back and say whoever planned the wedding and snubbed Eris caused it lol.)

Quote from: MattyG;105175
I'm really on the Cyclop's side. Dude just wants to herd his sheep in peace, and all of a sudden dudes come out of nowhere and gouge his eyes out. He's the real victim of the Trojan war.


I'm pretty sure Polyphemus ate the men first... hahaha. Either way, Poseidon was not pleased with Odysseus.

Fionnbharr

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Re: Whose Side of the Trojan War are You On?
« Reply #21 on: July 14, 2013, 11:26:12 am »
Quote from: Astani;105055
This is just for fun. Your reasons could be as simple as I worship this god, etc. I, for one, sided with the Trojans because I liked the pairing of Helen and Paris :)

 
I have memories of fighting against the Trojans... though it would be more accurate to say I sided with the  Myrmidons than the Archaeans

Quote from: Melamphoros;105101
So if he picked Hera or Athena, he would suddenly become an Alexander the Great type figure, conquering the Hittites and possibly displacing Agamemnon as the High King of the Greeks.  Troy, now the center and capitol of a vast empire becomes a tantalizing target to the Sea Peoples a few decades later.

Or I may have been over thinking this a bit much....


I think you are thinking too much, in no area did Paris have the character or strength of Alexander from my point of view. He had his looks and that is that... Neither would he ever succeed Hector in any way, not even with the help of a Goddess. To that he was too shallow which his choice resonated.

Helen was just a scared little girl in love over her head, I do not think it is fair to judge her too harshly. Agamemnon is the true Sociopath who just looked for an excuse to attack Troy. If it had not been because of Helen he had found another excuse I am quite sure! And is it not said that anyone in love is a sociopath due to their hormonal condition?
Grief and sorrow grows on the far banks of the river Styx, go there and visit them and you might not find your own way back home. - Achilles

Fionnbharr

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Re: Whose Side of the Trojan War are You On?
« Reply #22 on: July 14, 2013, 02:19:01 pm »
Quote from: FierFlye;105106
Achilles acted like a pouty drama queen.

 
How? because he chose not to bow down to the most powerful man in the world he came from, a *beep* dictator. Who else in the war had the guts to do so? Maybe only Hector, however he was never set in that position so we cannot know can we ;) One also has to understand that this war was not Achilles war and the only reason he ever entered it was on the wish of Athena...
Grief and sorrow grows on the far banks of the river Styx, go there and visit them and you might not find your own way back home. - Achilles

Thorn

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Re: Whose Side of the Trojan War are You On?
« Reply #23 on: July 14, 2013, 02:34:56 pm »
Quote from: Astani;105055
This is just for fun. Your reasons could be as simple as I worship this god, etc. I, for one, sided with the Trojans because I liked the pairing of Helen and Paris :)

 
If I picked a side it would be the Trojans.  I've a bit of a crush on Hector and Achilles was a git.  Plus, I like the way Ares is portrayed in the Iliad, and he's on the side of the Trojans.  Also I sympathize with the people of Troy as a whole - one prince makes a bad call and suddenly a whole civilization vanishes?  Harsh.
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Thorn

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Re: Whose Side of the Trojan War are You On?
« Reply #24 on: July 14, 2013, 02:38:29 pm »
Quote from: Fionnbharr;115589
How? because he chose not to bow down to the most powerful man in the world he came from, a *beep* dictator. Who else in the war had the guts to do so? Maybe only Hector, however he was never set in that position so we cannot know can we ;) One also has to understand that this war was not Achilles war and the only reason he ever entered it was on the wish of Athena...

 
He comes off as very childish to me.  But then, he was supposed to be pretty young, no?  Mostly, for me, it's the part about waiting for enough of your own people to die before consenting to rejoin the fight.  

It wasn't "Hey mom, could you ask Zeus to take Agammenon down a peg or two for us?"  It was "Ask Zeus to make sure the Greeks are totally crushed without me so everyone knows how important I am."
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Fionnbharr

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Re: Whose Side of the Trojan War are You On?
« Reply #25 on: July 14, 2013, 03:21:39 pm »
Quote from: Thorn;115593
He comes off as very childish to me.  But then, he was supposed to be pretty young, no?  Mostly, for me, it's the part about waiting for enough of your own people to die before consenting to rejoin the fight.  

It wasn't "Hey mom, could you ask Zeus to take Agammenon down a peg or two for us?"  It was "Ask Zeus to make sure the Greeks are totally crushed without me so everyone knows how important I am."

 
He was very young, yes. At least in the start of the war. But does the Illiad not start with Achilles speaking up against Agammenon on behalf of the soldiers, which actually saves the army from further wrath of Apollo. This makes Agammenon punish him and it is only because Athena holds him back he does not retaliate on the spot and strikes him down. Instead he chooses to step out of the war instead of aiding a cruel and unjust man in a pointless war. I am quite sure it is only the death of Patroklos that makes him enter it again. Would you have thought better of him if he had bowed down to Agammenon at that point?

The thing is he had no strife with the Greek soldiers it was with Agammenon. Achilles shows (at least one place in the Illiad) that he sheds tears for those who fall, in this case it is an enemy that fell; the only place he does not if you ask me is with Hector and that is most likely because he still grieves over Patroklos. And if I am not wrong here Hermes steps in and make him see the error of his actions and does he not give back the corpse of Hector then?

I have a hard time seeing where he is a drama queen. Neither did he wait for any of his people to die; the Myrmidons did not enter without their leader; and if they did it was by their own choice which you can not blame Achilles for. He might have done some things that is not always agreeable and made stupid wishes when he was hurt and angry (but who of us has not done that? even when we are no longer considered young...).
Grief and sorrow grows on the far banks of the river Styx, go there and visit them and you might not find your own way back home. - Achilles

Astariel

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Re: Whose Side of the Trojan War are You On?
« Reply #26 on: September 15, 2013, 01:57:00 pm »
Quote from: Astani;105055
This is just for fun. Your reasons could be as simple as I worship this god, etc. I, for one, sided with the Trojans because I liked the pairing of Helen and Paris :)

 

I'd be fighting under Athena for the Greeks without a doubt.  I feel like I died that way once, in ancient times.

Riothamus12

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Re: Whose Side of the Trojan War are You On?
« Reply #27 on: September 17, 2013, 09:19:43 am »
Quote from: Astani;105055
This is just for fun. Your reasons could be as simple as I worship this god, etc. I, for one, sided with the Trojans because I liked the pairing of Helen and Paris :)

 
Being that I consider the tale to be a sort of tragedy based in what may have been an actual conflict albeit turned into an allegory, I must say I take the side of the Trojans who were merely victims of the Achaeans vanity, needless wrath, and utter cruelty who then so arrogantly balked at the Gods and suffered for their transgressions. Aye Troy, fallen you are, but your vengeance upon Menalaeus and Agamemnon by way of the universe springs eternal. Thou sons of Mycenae have paid thrice over for your cruelty. Sic transit gloria mundi.
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Lykeios Lysios

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Re: Whose Side of the Trojan War are You On?
« Reply #28 on: September 22, 2013, 06:29:29 pm »
Quote from: Astani;105055
This is just for fun. Your reasons could be as simple as I worship this god, etc. I, for one, sided with the Trojans because I liked the pairing of Helen and Paris :)

Sorry, I'm not for the Trojans, no way, no how! I don't particularly love Agamemnon and his brother, they're portrayed as brutes, to be honest, but I'm with the Greeks all the way.

Its not so much about the Gods as I don't like picking favorites. (Just look what happened to Paris in the Golden Apple episode. No thanks!) I just adore the Greeks. Plus, Akhilleos is just epic.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2013, 06:30:17 pm by Lykeios Lysios »
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