collapse

* "Unable to verify referring url. Please go back and try again" Problem Logging In?

If you get an "Unable to verify referring url. Please go back and try again" error when you try to log in, you need to be sure you are accessing the board with a url that starts with "https://ecauldron.com".  If it starts with https://www.ecauldron.com" (or "http://www.ecauldron.com") you will get this error because "www.ecauldron.com" is not technically the same website as "ecauldron.com". Moving to the more secure "https" means it is more picky about such things.

Author Topic: Separate or the same?  (Read 2487 times)

Elyria

  • Sr. Apprentice
  • ****
  • Join Date: Jun 2013
  • Posts: 65
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Separate or the same?
« on: January 04, 2014, 10:08:58 pm »
When I first decided to believe in deities, I chose to accept them all as separate beings. And by that I mean, the Greek gods and goddesses were real, the Norse gods and goddesses were real, and so were Celtic and Irish and so on and so forth. They were all separate beings in my eyes.

But upon working and researching Lilith, my views have started to change. I've been noticing how many different cultures have a deity eerie similar to Lilith. And I started wondering if perhaps all the deities WERENT different, but merely one being twisted from culture to culture. Like with Lilith, perhaps she is Lilith, but also Inanna, but also Maeve, but also Hecate or the Morrigan. And Zues would be Jupiter and Odin.

This is just an idea I'm playing with.. But is it wrong to think this way? I suppose the beauty of paganism is the ability to chose your own beliefs. I guess I just wonder if I'm alone in this idea. Any thoughts?


Blessings,
Elyria

Olie

  • Journeyman
  • *****
  • Join Date: Mar 2013
  • Posts: 157
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Separate or the same?
« Reply #1 on: January 04, 2014, 11:33:12 pm »
Quote from: Elyria;135100
When I first decided to believe in deities, I chose to accept them all as separate beings. And by that I mean, the Greek gods and goddesses were real, the Norse gods and goddesses were real, and so were Celtic and Irish and so on and so forth. They were all separate beings in my eyes.

But upon working and researching Lilith, my views have started to change. I've been noticing how many different cultures have a deity eerie similar to Lilith. And I started wondering if perhaps all the deities WERENT different, but merely one being twisted from culture to culture. Like with Lilith, perhaps she is Lilith, but also Inanna, but also Maeve, but also Hecate or the Morrigan. And Zues would be Jupiter and Odin.

This is just an idea I'm playing with.. But is it wrong to think this way? I suppose the beauty of paganism is the ability to chose your own beliefs. I guess I just wonder if I'm alone in this idea. Any thoughts?


Blessings,
Elyria

 
YEAH! this is a thing actually. like you can see it however you want because im not sure if anyone besides the gods know whats really goin on. but i heard lots of people say they believe how gods from different cultures and stuff are just the same god with a lot of different names. or i even heard how theres one god and other gods are just that one god sending part of themselves down in a way that people can relate to. i think its pretty cool

Valentine

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 936
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 79
    • View Profile
  • Religion: get free; get others free; make new life in the aftermath
  • Preferred Pronouns: she/her
Re: Separate or the same?
« Reply #2 on: January 05, 2014, 01:44:31 am »
Quote from: Elyria;135100
When I first decided to believe in deities, I chose to accept them all as separate beings. And by that I mean, the Greek gods and goddesses were real, the Norse gods and goddesses were real, and so were Celtic and Irish and so on and so forth. They were all separate beings in my eyes.

But upon working and researching Lilith, my views have started to change. I've been noticing how many different cultures have a deity eerie similar to Lilith. And I started wondering if perhaps all the deities WERENT different, but merely one being twisted from culture to culture. Like with Lilith, perhaps she is Lilith, but also Inanna, but also Maeve, but also Hecate or the Morrigan. And Zues would be Jupiter and Odin.

This is just an idea I'm playing with.. But is it wrong to think this way? I suppose the beauty of paganism is the ability to chose your own beliefs. I guess I just wonder if I'm alone in this idea. Any thoughts?


Blessings,
Elyria

 
What eerie similarities are those?  I'm not really seeing any.  (Especially not Inanna.)
"Let be be finale of seem." - Wallace Stevens, "The Emperor of Ice-Cream"
"There isn't a way things should be.  There's just what happens, and what we do."
- Terry Pratchett, "A Hat Full of Sky"

Louisvillian

  • Master Member
  • ******
  • Join Date: May 2013
  • Posts: 392
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 51
    • View Profile
  • Religion: Syncretic religio romana/Hellenised Romano-British religion
  • Preferred Pronouns: he/him/his
Re: Separate or the same?
« Reply #3 on: January 05, 2014, 01:59:05 am »
Quote from: Elyria;135100
I guess I just wonder if I'm alone in this idea. Any thoughts

The thing you have to remember is that these cultures 1) had a lot of interaction with each other and 2) developed out of previous cultures. Whether or not certain deities existed, these cultures adopted deities from other cultures, or carried on certain roles for their own deities. For example, most Indo-European cultures had a concept or role of the Thunder God who ruled over the skies and hurled thunderbolts. For the Greeks, it was Zeus, for the Romans it was Jupiter, for the Nords it was Thor, et al. But that doesn't necessarily mean that it's literally the same deity; it just means that those cultures had a niche to fill.
In some cases, a culture would adopt wholesale the deities of a neighbouring people, especially if they conquered or colonised them. Hekate was originally a Carian goddess, and the Greeks integrated her into their mythology as a Titan. The Romans would later integrate Eastern solar cult into their religion, as well. Likewise, some cultures might just adopt certain trappings or practices onto existing deity; Zeus and Dionysos both had a lot of Eastern imagery attached to them, because the Greeks had interacted with Near Eastern cultures a lot from a very early date.

Darkhawk

  • Senior Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 4924
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 831
    • View Profile
    • Suns in her Branches
  • Religion: An American Werewolf in the Akhet; Kemetic; Feri; Imaginary Baltic Heathen; Discordian; CoX; Etc.
  • Preferred Pronouns: any of he, she, they
Re: Separate or the same?
« Reply #4 on: January 05, 2014, 02:05:43 am »
Quote from: Elyria;135100
I've been noticing how many different cultures have a deity eerie similar to Lilith. And I started wondering if perhaps all the deities WERENT different, but merely one being twisted from culture to culture. Like with Lilith, perhaps she is Lilith, but also Inanna, but also Maeve, but also Hecate or the Morrigan.


I ... if you find these "eerily similar" to Lilith I am not sure what information you are going with.  I would suggest that you adopt higher standards for similarity, though.  (This looks like the rough equivalent of taking Michelle Obama for Barbara Bush, to me.)

Quote
And Zues would be Jupiter and Odin.


As a general rule, I prefer to, if considering syncretisms/equivalences, not use ones that directly contradict the ones that were used by the original cultures.

Odin was, by everything I've read, considered equivalent to Mercury by the Romans.
as the water grinds the stone
we rise and fall
as our ashes turn to dust
we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

Valentine

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 936
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 79
    • View Profile
  • Religion: get free; get others free; make new life in the aftermath
  • Preferred Pronouns: she/her
Re: Separate or the same?
« Reply #5 on: January 05, 2014, 02:39:06 am »
Quote from: Darkhawk;135112
I ... if you find these "eerily similar" to Lilith I am not sure what information you are going with.  I would suggest that you adopt higher standards for similarity, though.  (This looks like the rough equivalent of taking Michelle Obama for Barbara Bush, to me.)



As a general rule, I prefer to, if considering syncretisms/equivalences, not use ones that directly contradict the ones that were used by the original cultures.

Odin was, by everything I've read, considered equivalent to Mercury by the Romans.

 
It's right there in the days of the week!  Wednesday is Miercoles in Spanish, after all.
"Let be be finale of seem." - Wallace Stevens, "The Emperor of Ice-Cream"
"There isn't a way things should be.  There's just what happens, and what we do."
- Terry Pratchett, "A Hat Full of Sky"

Jack

  • Adept Member
  • ********
  • Join Date: Apr 2012
  • Location: Cascadia
  • Posts: 3171
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 93
    • View Profile
    • Dwarvenpunk
  • Religion: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • Preferred Pronouns: he/him/his
Re: Separate or the same?
« Reply #6 on: January 05, 2014, 03:21:28 am »
Quote from: Valentine;135113
It's right there in the days of the week!  Wednesday is Miercoles in Spanish, after all.

 
I dearly wish I could remember the source, but I recall reading a book that insisted Odin and Hermes were the same god because they both wear hats(!!!1!)
Hail Mara, Lady of Good Things!
"The only way to cope with something deadly serious is to try to treat it a little lightly." -Madeleine L'Engle

Melamphoros

  • Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 2744
  • Total likes: 2
    • View Profile
Re: Separate or the same?
« Reply #7 on: January 05, 2014, 03:48:35 am »
Quote from: Jack;135115
I dearly wish I could remember the source, but I recall reading a book that insisted Odin and Hermes were the same god because they both wear hats(!!!1!)

 
But Priapus also wears a hat...I don't think I need to know about that particular bit of Odin's anatomy...


Jesus saves, Allah forgives, Cthulhu thinks you will make a great sandwich.
My Spiritual Blog

Darkhawk

  • Senior Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 4924
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 831
    • View Profile
    • Suns in her Branches
  • Religion: An American Werewolf in the Akhet; Kemetic; Feri; Imaginary Baltic Heathen; Discordian; CoX; Etc.
  • Preferred Pronouns: any of he, she, they
Re: Separate or the same?
« Reply #8 on: January 05, 2014, 12:24:59 pm »
Quote from: Melamphoros;135116
But Priapus also wears a hat...I don't think I need to know about that particular bit of Odin's anatomy...

 
"In Part 2 you find Wotan wandering about on the earth, and he has a couple of illegitimate children by a mortal—Siegmund and Sieglinde—whilst disguised under the singularly appropriate name of Wolf."  --The Ring of the Nibelungs (An Analysis), by Anna Russell
as the water grinds the stone
we rise and fall
as our ashes turn to dust
we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

DavidMcCann

  • Journeyman
  • *****
  • Join Date: Nov 2013
  • Posts: 147
  • Total likes: 1
    • View Profile
Re: Separate or the same?
« Reply #9 on: January 05, 2014, 12:54:47 pm »
Quote from: Darkhawk;135112
Odin was, by everything I've read, considered equivalent to Mercury by the Romans.

Often that sort of thing was done by people with very little information.
Woden = wisdom = Mercury
Tiw is invoked in battle, hence = Mars. But he was invoked as god of justice, not of war.

Similarly, we call a planet Mercury because the Greeks in Plato's time translated the Akkadian name "star of Nabu" as "star of Hermes". But when Greeks went to live in the area after Alexander's conquests, they decided Nabu was Apollo.
Minorities are almost always in the right.
They haif said. Quhat say they? Lat thame say!

Elyria

  • Sr. Apprentice
  • ****
  • Join Date: Jun 2013
  • Posts: 65
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Separate or the same?
« Reply #10 on: January 05, 2014, 01:10:47 pm »
Quote from: Darkhawk;135112
...

 
Thanks for hijacking my post, everyone. Your random, unhelpful banter really answered my question. :thumbs up:

Emma Eldritch

  • Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: May 2012
  • Posts: 1265
  • Country: 00
  • Total likes: 67
    • View Profile
    • https://rocknrollwitch.blogspot.ca/
Re: Separate or the same?
« Reply #11 on: January 05, 2014, 01:26:54 pm »
Quote from: Elyria;135161
Thanks for hijacking my post, everyone. Your random, unhelpful banter really answered my question. :thumbs up:

 
Dude, have you read the threads on the forum? Banter happens. Bitching about it just makes people think you have no sense of humour.

Anyway, smattered in there were answers to your question, and some questions raised in response. (Olie and Darkhawk and Louisvillian all posted things directed at you.)

You asked "is it wrong to think this way?" The answer is not in a moral sense, no. Not even in a philosophical sense, really, since none of us can prove a damn thing when it comes to deities. Where you will run into trouble, on this board especially, is making sweeping comparisons that do not fit with the known mythology. There's a lot of scholarly types on the Cauldron, and remarks like "Lillith is like the Morrigan" will not go unchallenged.

So while the idea of fewer gods existing under many names is not wrong - plenty of people think that way - arguing convincingly in some cases is gonna be really, really hard because there isn't any evidence to back it up. That's all.

Kairos

  • Sr. Newbie
  • **
  • Join Date: Jan 2014
  • Posts: 17
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Separate or the same?
« Reply #12 on: January 05, 2014, 01:50:05 pm »
Quote from: Elyria;135100
When I first decided to believe in deities, I chose to accept them all as separate beings. And by that I mean, the Greek gods and goddesses were real, the Norse gods and goddesses were real, and so were Celtic and Irish and so on and so forth. They were all separate beings in my eyes.

But upon working and researching Lilith, my views have started to change. I've been noticing how many different cultures have a deity eerie similar to Lilith. And I started wondering if perhaps all the deities WERENT different, but merely one being twisted from culture to culture. Like with Lilith, perhaps she is Lilith, but also Inanna, but also Maeve, but also Hecate or the Morrigan. And Zues would be Jupiter and Odin.

This is just an idea I'm playing with.. But is it wrong to think this way? I suppose the beauty of paganism is the ability to chose your own beliefs. I guess I just wonder if I'm alone in this idea. Any thoughts?


Blessings,
Elyria

I can't speak of reconstructionists beliefs, but I can say a little about the beliefs of ancient people.

I thought that the Roman Gods were the Greek Gods with different names, but when I started to read different ancient texts, I learned that they might do some of the same jobs but that doesn't mean they do it in the same way. Mars and Ares are very different war Gods. Venus and Aphrodite are very different Love Goddesses. The aspects of love and war that the Romans worshipped and revered are not the same aspects of love and war that the Greeks worshipped and revered.
Kairosophy - A Pagan\'s Musing on All Things Sacred and Spiritual.

SerpentineSorcerer

  • Journeyman
  • *****
  • Join Date: Nov 2012
  • Posts: 111
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
    • http://abracadabra-macabre.tumblr.com/
Re: Separate or the same?
« Reply #13 on: January 05, 2014, 02:03:56 pm »
Quote from: Valentine;135110
What eerie similarities are those?  I'm not really seeing any.  (Especially not Inanna.)

 
I'mma second this opinion here, especially with Hecate (I mean, yeah there are some superficial similarities in certain areas, but like I said those are superficial and only in certain areas)
"Men of broader intellect know that there is no sharp distinction betwixt the real and the unreal"

"Life is not separate from death. It only looks that way."

NanLT

  • Sr. Apprentice
  • ****
  • Join Date: Jan 2014
  • Posts: 97
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
    • http://writingsofapaganwitch.wordpress.com/
Re: Separate or the same?
« Reply #14 on: January 05, 2014, 02:31:08 pm »
Quote from: Kairos;135172
I can't speak of reconstructionists beliefs, but I can say a little about the beliefs of ancient people.


And I can't speak for reconstructionists or even for the beliefs of ancient peoples. But, I can speak for my own experiences and conversations I've had in my head with assorted Gods.

I asked Modron once what She preferred to be called - there are so many variations of her name to be found across Europe. Her answer was to tell me that names are given to Them by humans, and aren't necessarily what They call themselves. In other words, it didn't matter to Her.

Now as far as the question - are they separate Gods, or all the same? Or are they all just figments of a collective imagination? Damned if I know. But, does it really matter?

It harms no one if I consider some of the Gods to be completely different from other Gods, and Some of the Gods to be different aspects of each other.

And a few of them to be figments of my imagination.

Tags:
 

Related Topics

  Subject / Started by Replies Last post
26 Replies
8707 Views
Last post January 17, 2013, 08:05:52 pm
by FollowerofOdin
2 Replies
1199 Views
Last post July 15, 2011, 03:06:57 am
by Asch
25 Replies
3936 Views
Last post August 06, 2011, 09:43:02 am
by mandrina
15 Replies
2588 Views
Last post September 16, 2014, 04:14:06 pm
by beachglass
17 Replies
4656 Views
Last post October 17, 2014, 02:48:54 am
by EJay

* Who's Online

  • Dot Guests: 53
  • Dot Hidden: 0
  • Dot Users: 1
  • Dot Users Online:

* Please Donate!

The Cauldron's server is expensive and requires monthly payments. Please become a Bronze, Silver or Gold Donor if you can. Donations are needed every month. Without member support, we can't afford the server.

* Shop & Support TC

The links below are affiliate links. When you click on one of these links you will go to the listed shopping site with The Cauldron's affiliate code. Any purchases you make during your visit will earn TC a tiny percentage of your purchase price at no extra cost to you.

* In Memoriam

Chavi (2006)
Elspeth (2010)
Marilyn (2013)

* Cauldron Staff

Host:
Sunflower

Message Board Staff
Board Coordinator:
Darkhawk

Assistant Board Coordinator:
Aster Breo

Senior Staff:
Aisling, Jenett, Sefiru

Staff:
Allaya, Chatelaine, EclecticWheel, HarpingHawke, Kylara, PerditaPickle, rocquelaire

Discord Chat Staff
Chat Coordinator:
Morag

Cauldron Council:
Bob, Catja, Emma-Eldritch, Fausta, Jubes, Kelly, LyricFox, Phouka, Sperran, Star, Steve, Tana

Site Administrator:
Randall