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Author Topic: Relationships between gods - going beyond the myth  (Read 6989 times)

monsnoleedra

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Re: Relationships between gods - going beyond the myth
« Reply #30 on: September 25, 2011, 10:35:30 pm »
Quote from: Melamphoros;22247
And the ancient Greek words for these are?  I'm sorry, but without more it comes off more as a matter of which translation one uses.  Some people may use different words to describe the same thing..


Lets see if this prints correctly;

ιδ (nom. -ίς): φαρμακ-ίς sorceress (φάρμακο-ν charm, poison, φαρμακ-εύ-ς sorcerer),

However if you want to see it in Greek, Latin and English you can see the translations of many of them here

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/

monsnoleedra

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Re: Relationships between gods - going beyond the myth
« Reply #31 on: September 25, 2011, 11:18:59 pm »
Quote from: catja6;22254
Yes, exactly!  English has multiple different and nuanced terms for communicating the idea of "female magic worker," so the translator chooses the one with the implications and formality s/he wishes to convey.


While that looks good on paper and in the English speaking community it fails horribly when you live in a non-english speaking community.  I lived in Japan for 6.5 years and in other non-english speaking areas for another 8 and the worse encounters we ever had were from trying to put into English what they ment and not understanding thier usages of it.  More so from assuming what we though they were trying to say.

Valentine

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Re: Relationships between gods - going beyond the myth
« Reply #32 on: September 26, 2011, 02:42:07 am »
Quote from: monsnoleedra;22262
While that looks good on paper and in the English speaking community it fails horribly when you live in a non-english speaking community.  I lived in Japan for 6.5 years and in other non-english speaking areas for another 8 and the worse encounters we ever had were from trying to put into English what they ment and not understanding thier usages of it.  More so from assuming what we though they were trying to say.

 
But...this is an English-speaking community, and what is under discussion is statements you made in English about English translations of Greek texts, correct?  You made a distinction between "sorceress" and "witch" and other terms, per translations into English but with the implication that they reflect similar differences in ancient Greek, and then offered the Hellenic word that's being translated as "sorceress" in your lexicon.  What, then, is the different word that you are saying is translated "witch," and what are the meaningful distinctions?

Further, it is one thing to compare modern English and modern Japanese--two languages used by postmodern, literate cultures that have commensurately enormous vocabularies with many subtle shades of meaning--and an ancient language in the early stages of literacy, whose vocabulary is accordingly smaller and thus makes shades of meaning through structure and context.  (Orality is hardly simpler or less sophisticated than literacy, but it requires a whole lot more memorization, and thus generally involves smaller vocabularies and devices like repetition and meter to make "texts" easier to recall.  Certainly we see this in the Homeric texts, even in the forms we have now.)
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monsnoleedra

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Re: Relationships between gods - going beyond the myth
« Reply #33 on: September 26, 2011, 11:01:07 am »
Quote
=Valentine;22289]But...this is an English-speaking community, and what is under discussion is statements you made in English about English translations of Greek texts, correct?  You made a distinction between "sorceress" and "witch" and other terms, per translations into English but with the implication that they reflect similar differences in ancient Greek, and then offered the Hellenic word that's being translated as "sorceress" in your lexicon.  What, then, is the different word that you are saying is translated "witch," and what are the meaningful distinctions?


NO, what I said is that when reading the Greek stories you had to consider what age and by whom they were translated.  In the original Greek the word used is Sorceress (φαρμακ-ίς) yet in later Roman period translations it becomes "Thessala" which was used for Witch, Sorceress and Enchantress.  In the Dark Ages period its Witch, then the Witch translation holds true into the 1800's.  Yet the presumption is that the usage for one age is the same for another.

To use an analogy, we hosted two Swiss students in an exchange program.  One night they came to us and aksed if it would be all right for them to make a bunch of water ballons for a  party they wanted to have.  We told them it was fine but were somewhat shocked when we got up the next morning and the yard was covered in broken rubbers.  When we explained why and using a swiss to english dictinary to do so they got all red faced and embarassed by it.  

Two modern languages that could cross over if you looked into the mindset and cultural usage of a word and not what you assumed it to be.  They saw the rubber's and read ballon not something else.

That same notion came into play when speaking on the words Sanctuary and Asylum.  While they could mean the same Sanctuary clearly held a differing meaning to them than Asylum.  Not only as to meaning but also as to who could offer each, Sanctuary closely associated to the church and Asylum associated to a political system but not the same.

But we were not speaking about modern English but archaic Greek and how the word was used and understood by that age.  There-in lies the problem to my mind, looking with todays mind and meanings to ancient words and who they understood and related to them.  IN order to do that one has to use the words they used not what we would like to think they ment or believe they ment based upon modern usage.

BUt those are my beliefs and experiences so for others may differ.

SatSekhem

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Re: Relationships between gods - going beyond the myth
« Reply #34 on: September 26, 2011, 03:35:18 pm »
Quote from: Darkhawk;22069
People do it both ways.

Personally, I consider equating gods from different pantheons to be kind of like equating me with my mother.  We're both categorised as female!  We both have eldest children who are categorised as female who were born in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts!  We both like the colour blue!  We both are known to drink lime rickeys!  We make the same cake recipe!

So clearly we are the same person, right?

 
You're always so eloquent.
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Malkin

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Re: Relationships between gods - going beyond the myth
« Reply #35 on: September 27, 2011, 06:51:31 am »
Quote from: Pain and Light;21994
I'm probably one of the people you're thinking of, and I can say that I know of some person who was forbidden by Apollo to have anything to do with Brigid (awkward, as her husband was a devotee of Brigid....) - I don't know a lot of detail, as this was told to me secondhand by a clos friend of that person but I personally have only experienced direct hostility from Brigid- but had others try to tell me that I've got to be mistaken, it's got to actually be comnig from Apollo because Brigid would never do that. In my case, it's Brigid through and through, and I really don't think it has anyhting to do with Apollo- as far as I'm concerned, he could care less if I were to have anyhing to do with Brigid. I've been told to keep away from a couple of other deities- Artemis and Odin, though I'm not exactly sure if the staying away from Artemis still stands as some thigns have changed drastically since that was requested of me..

I've also known several people who worshipped both Brigid and Apollo quite closely. I really think the mixture of gods that any given person might have has a lot to do with that person and their relationship with those gods.

 
I didn't really mention it in that thread, but I had a similar experience with Brigid, including having folks tell me that it couldn't possibly be Brigid, because she would never do that. :ange: However, I did a lot of brainstorming about it with a friend and we theorized that it could be due to the fact that I had been focusing much of my devotions on Lugh, whom she shares some major functions with. Again, I've never heard anyone report any kind of rivalry between the two, but it was all I had to go on. So during Lughnasadh, as well as making offerings to Lugh, I made offerings to the Sons of Tuireann/Three Gods of Skill, who in some texts are described as sons of Brigid, and who happened to have died by Lugh's hand. This offering was received pretty positively, and since then I haven't gotten the same cautious/hostile feeling I was getting from Brigid before.

In the grand scheme of things, though, I think instances like this are probably less about any personal feelings a deity might have toward an individual, and more an issue of, "I don't know if you've got enough room in that head of yours for both of us," and in those cases you might be asked to make a choice unless you can show that you can make space for both of them.

However, like I said in that previous thread, I was specifically asked by Oengus Mac Og not to do any work with Fionn Mac Cumhaill, and afterwards I discovered that they had a long-standing enmity right there in the lore. So, based on that experience, I think there are definitely cases where particular gods/spirits simply can't be friends, and might ask you to choose sides. (Not that it was a big blustery commandment or anything. Just a, "I would really prefer that you didn't.")

Lorraine

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Re: Relationships between gods - going beyond the myth
« Reply #36 on: September 27, 2011, 07:55:07 am »
Quote from: Pain and Light;21994
I'm probably one of the people you're thinking of, and I can say that I know of some person who was forbidden by Apollo to have anything to do with Brigid (awkward, as her husband was a devotee of Brigid....) - I don't know a lot of detail, as this was told to me secondhand by a clos friend of that person but I personally have only experienced direct hostility from Brigid- but had others try to tell me that I've got to be mistaken, it's got to actually be comnig from Apollo because Brigid would never do that. In my case, it's Brigid through and through, and I really don't think it has anyhting to do with Apollo- as far as I'm concerned, he could care less if I were to have anyhing to do with Brigid. I've been told to keep away from a couple of other deities- Artemis and Odin, though I'm not exactly sure if the staying away from Artemis still stands as some thigns have changed drastically since that was requested of me..

I've also known several people who worshipped both Brigid and Apollo quite closely. I really think the mixture of gods that any given person might have has a lot to do with that person and their relationship with those gods.

I think I remember talking about this too, on the older board.  I've had dealings with both Apollo and Brighid and neither has told me to stay away from the other, at least not yet.  I wonder if it would come to that if I had a closer relationship to Brighid.  I think I've been hanging back a bit with her in recent times because I'm almost expecting it to turn into an issue, but that could all be in my head.  

My husband is more of a follower of Hera which hasn't caused any apparent problems between us.  

Apollo once very clearly stepped in and warned me away from someone but I don't have a name for that goddess, only a sense of how they felt.  That was a one-off encounter anyway.

Quote from: Malkin;22546
In the grand scheme of things, though, I think instances like this are probably less about any personal feelings a deity might have toward an individual, and more an issue of, "I don't know if you've got enough room in that head of yours for both of us," and in those cases you might be asked to make a choice unless you can show that you can make space for both of them.

Mostly, my UPG tends to run to dealing with one god at a time.  One notable exception was with Apollo and Hermes.  Hermes isn't someone I regularly worship but there was a period when he was around very often which happened to coincide with a new opportunity coming up for me, so there was that sense of  being shaken out of a rut.  I felt they had a light-hearted, jokey relationship between them which isn't a side of Apollo I see that often otherwise.  I mostly dealt with Hermes on his own during that time, though.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2011, 07:59:44 am by Lorraine »

LeaLynne

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Re: Relationships between gods - going beyond the myth
« Reply #37 on: September 27, 2011, 12:08:25 pm »
Quote from: Malkin;22546


In the grand scheme of things, though, I think instances like this are probably less about any personal feelings a deity might have toward an individual, and more an issue of, "I don't know if you've got enough room in that head of yours for both of us," and in those cases you might be asked to make a choice unless you can show that you can make space for both of them.

However, like I said in that previous thread, I was specifically asked by Oengus Mac Og not to do any work with Fionn Mac Cumhaill, and afterwards I discovered that they had a long-standing enmity right there in the lore. So, based on that experience, I think there are definitely cases where particular gods/spirits simply can't be friends, and might ask you to choose sides. (Not that it was a big blustery commandment or anything. Just a, "I would really prefer that you didn't.")


I've had the "I would prefer you stay away from him/her" conversation a few times, once with Anubis who asked me to stay away from Osiris for a while.
Another with Athena who has asked that I stay far away from Ares...apparently she feels he and I could get into a lot of trouble should we meet (which makes sense given my fiery temper and impatience)
but Anubis only requested I stay away from Osiris for a few months...

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