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Author Topic: Relationships between gods - going beyond the myth  (Read 7525 times)

monsnoleedra

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Re: Relationships between gods - going beyond the myth
« Reply #15 on: September 24, 2011, 10:40:47 pm »
Quote from: Juniperberry;22040
In my case, I don't find that true of the Norse at all. The giants and god are not different species, and the giants are not gods. The gods and giants are different tribes, is all. Different communities. The Aesir are only 'gods' in that they are the reginn on Midgard, not because it's some species indicator or existance of being (verb).


After re-consideration I'd have to say I agree they are not different species.  The fact they are able to breed and produce offspring would make them similiar species.  With regard to the giants, or more specifically some of the giants, being gods / goddesses I have to admit I arrived at that conclusion from some of the tales and a few of the giants being recognized as gods / goddesses.  BUt seeing as how I do not follow a Nordic based path I admit I might have misunderstood the edda or saga I was reading at the time.

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Re: Relationships between gods - going beyond the myth
« Reply #16 on: September 25, 2011, 12:10:48 am »
Quote from: monsnoleedra;22050
After re-consideration I'd have to say I agree they are not different species.  The fact they are able to breed and produce offspring would make them similiar species.  With regard to the giants, or more specifically some of the giants, being gods / goddesses I have to admit I arrived at that conclusion from some of the tales and a few of the giants being recognized as gods / goddesses.  BUt seeing as how I do not follow a Nordic based path I admit I might have misunderstood the edda or saga I was reading at the time.

 

No, you're correct- I wasn't being clear. Skadi is a giantess but is also therefore Aesir which makes her have a 'god' title. Giants that aren't reginn are not gods. They're all beings- a different type than you and I- but that difference doesn't make them gods. Their actions and worth do. Just as some of us are kings and heroes and others are not. So, a battle between Aesir and giants isn't a battle of gods- its a battle between those we recognize as the ruling beings and those we dont. Hence, a battle between 'god' and giant.
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Re: Relationships between gods - going beyond the myth
« Reply #17 on: September 25, 2011, 12:26:53 am »
Quote from: Valdi;21960
One of my thoughts on hard polytheism is, do the gods exist as one group of divinities who embody certain roles, or do they exist in all of them? For example, is Jupiter = Indra = Thor = Perun = Zeus, or is Jupiter =/= Zeus =/= Indra =/= Perun, and so on?

 
People do it both ways.

Personally, I consider equating gods from different pantheons to be kind of like equating me with my mother.  We're both categorised as female!  We both have eldest children who are categorised as female who were born in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts!  We both like the colour blue!  We both are known to drink lime rickeys!  We make the same cake recipe!

So clearly we are the same person, right?
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Re: Relationships between gods - going beyond the myth
« Reply #18 on: September 25, 2011, 02:10:51 am »
Quote from: Shadow;22022
I was thinking along similar lines when reading the op. I am only just beginning to work on building relationships with 3 deities and so have no personal experience. I do wonder though if being told to stay away from certain gods is more about the person in question and less about the gods themselves.

 
I really tend to think that this is the major factor in cases like this, since for jsut about any case that I can think of where I know that someone was told to stay away from one god by another, I know of another case where both gods are worshiped by someone else with no issues. I think it comes down to the person's relationship with the god/s in question.

To take my own example of being told to stay away from worship of Odin-Apollo and Odin are two gods with some very interesting points of intersection. These darker (I hate saying it that way, but for lack of a better, more concise way to put it) realms of Apollo's influence are the parts to which I tend to be closest. And Odin tends to be- or at least I've heard it from a number of folks who worship Odin- rather grabby-handed. As I consider myself to be among the god-owned crowd....well, my interpretation is basically that it's not exactly forbidden- what it seems to have always come down to for me is basically "you're always free to choose, but I know what choices you'll make" and once again, I'm free to choose here but that it could alter or possibly damage my relationship with Apollo if I did so. And when you get right down to it, I don't have that sort of interest in Odin, so there really is no question for me.

But I know others who worship both just fine. Their relationships with Apollo are very different than mine, so what's right for them as far as Odin goes is different than what's right for me.

SkySamuelle

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Re: Relationships between gods - going beyond the myth
« Reply #19 on: September 25, 2011, 09:51:15 am »
Quote from: monsnoleedra;22031
I agree on the Hekate & Hermes link.  Not sure about the Dionysos & Hekate link.  Everything I've read seem's to imply that it would more so be an Artemis & Dionysos link, especially when dealing with boundaries, nature and orgasmic rites (not sexual persay).  Can't recall the exact spot now but there is one temple that was co-dedicated to both Dionysos & Artemis.

Relationship wise there are things i've experienced that make me wonder.  For instance I am strongly devoted to Hekate but Kali came to me to pass a message to one of her followers I know.  Having both of them in my mind at the same time with Hekate saying I could speak but telling Kali to remember I belong to her.  Now does that indicate a relationship in the heavens?  Probably not for Hekate left no doubt who belong to whom and that it was with her permission and approval.

Yet between Hekate and Artemis thier is no sign of stife and they seem to work or completement one another.  Perhaps even from the historical accounts where you have Artemis-Hekate / Hekate-Artemis or even the joining of thier histories at Ephesos and the Taurian Artemis with Ighphenia (Hekate).

Yet I can tell you even though historians say Artemis and Diana are two faces of the same goddess Artemis does not buy into that fact.  It was with no doubt that Artemis reminded quite clearly that a statue in Greece I started to buy was of that "Roman" and not her.

I collect Greek & Roman coins which bear the image of Artemis or Hekate.  Artemis is fine with the coins that can be said to depict her or Diana based upon the time and design but coins that clearly indicate Diana had better say Diana in my records and not her.  She really dislikes the Ephesos cult idol being called Diana of Ephesos for instance.

So while Artemis seem's to really dislike or just tolerate Diana she has no problem with Bastet or Pahket being associated to her and her to them.  I was wondering one night about the connection between Artemis and Bastet when I discovered an area called Spiro De Artemis in Egypt which is the Grotto of Artemis where the Temple of Pahket is located.  Yet I had done perhaps thousands of searches but never come across that before.

Other gods / goddesses its harder to say as I do not work with them nor do those I follow say or indicate much about it.

 
If you are interested in Hekate-Dionysos and Hekate-Kali relations maybe you might find useful the Her Sacred Fires Anthology cured by Sorita D'Este - it has one essay on the  Dionysos-Hekate cult and correlation and one essay on a dancer that worships both Hekate and Kali.

I think that sometimes deities might be advise us against certain other divine relationships because they don't like the way it would affect our workings with Them.
At the same way, I think sometimes they might encourage relationships with gods they don't quite like/get along with because we need it.

That's all theorizing on my part, tough- i have not any experience direct as for long time Hekate was my one focus.
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Re: Relationships between gods - going beyond the myth
« Reply #20 on: September 25, 2011, 12:49:44 pm »
Quote from: monsnoleedra;22035
Can't recall any in the Roman or Greek pantheons though.  
Quote


The eqivalent in Greco-Roman pantheon is usually understood as being Titan

The Jotuns were an older generation of devine being that were displaced by younger upstarts
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Garm

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Re: Relationships between gods - going beyond the myth
« Reply #21 on: September 25, 2011, 12:58:02 pm »
Quote from: Juniperberry;22040
In my case, I don't find that true of the Norse at all. The giants and god are not different species, and the giants are not gods. The gods and giants are different tribes, is all. Different communities. The Aesir are only 'gods' in that they are the reginn on Midgard, not because it's some species indicator or existance of being (verb).


I'm seeing the term jotun used in a way looks inclusive of different species

Whatever concioussness there is behind a forest fire or an ice storm probably hasn't enough intelligence to match the brains of a rhesus monkey

On what passes for the evolutionary ladder among elemental spirits this represents a few rungs down from beings that can nurture tribal vendettas and compose poetry
« Last Edit: September 25, 2011, 01:01:27 pm by Garm »
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Re: Relationships between gods - going beyond the myth
« Reply #22 on: September 25, 2011, 01:14:45 pm »
Quote from: Garm;22162
I'm seeing the term jotun used in a way looks inclusive of different species


They aren't, tho. Ymir is the grandfather of Odin et al and the jotuns. It's more like the Montagues and Capulets fighting, than two different species fighting.

Quote
Whatever concioussness there is behind a forest fire or an ice storm probably hasn't enough intelligence to match the brains of a rhesus monkey

On what passes for the evolutionary ladder among elemental spirits this represents a few rungs down from beings that can nurture tribal vendettas and compose poetry


This dumbing down of the giants was most likely a result of christian demonization. Not only did they most likely become more evil than they were originally intended, they also became more stupid. The idea that they are just natural occurence/elemental spirits is the same as saying Thor is just a thunderstorm. The ideas have become too simplified, and people ignore the obvious overlapping of attributes.
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monsnoleedra

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Re: Relationships between gods - going beyond the myth
« Reply #23 on: September 25, 2011, 02:02:05 pm »
Quote from: SkySamuelle;22128
If you are interested in Hekate-Dionysos and Hekate-Kali relations maybe you might find useful the Her Sacred Fires Anthology cured by Sorita D'Este - it has one essay on the  Dionysos-Hekate cult and correlation and one essay on a dancer that worships both Hekate and Kali. ..


While I have not read that particular book yet I find for myself that far to many attribute things to Hekate / Hecate in a Wiccanish manner with the MMC symbology that does not fit the mythological / historical record for her.

Her history seem's to begin for many with the attachment of a Goddess of Witches that really occurs in the later Roman period and Middle Ages into the Shakesperian writings.  Then is further clouded by the inclusion of many of the facets of Artemis that get overlayed.

While Hekate is found on many curse tablets and such and is associated especially to Medea its not magic in the later sense and usage of the word.  With Medea for instance she is a sorcerss not a witch in the early records and noted for her use of poisons and other plant extracts.  Yet later records record her as a Witch, the same can be said of Circe as well as she in early records is a sorceress not a witch.

Of course that is my opinion so may differ greatly from others.

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Re: Relationships between gods - going beyond the myth
« Reply #24 on: September 25, 2011, 08:16:00 pm »
Quote from: monsnoleedra;22170

While Hekate is found on many curse tablets and such and is associated especially to Medea its not magic in the later sense and usage of the word.  With Medea for instance she is a sorcerss not a witch in the early records and noted for her use of poisons and other plant extracts.  Yet later records record her as a Witch, the same can be said of Circe as well as she in early records is a sorceress not a witch.

 
What definitions of "sorceress" and "witch" are you using here?  I wasn't aware the ancient Greeks had two separate terms nor saw distinctions between different types of magic-user.


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monsnoleedra

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Re: Relationships between gods - going beyond the myth
« Reply #25 on: September 25, 2011, 09:44:04 pm »
Quote from: Melamphoros;22217
What definitions of "sorceress" and "witch" are you using here?  I wasn't aware the ancient Greeks had two separate terms nor saw distinctions between different types of magic-user.

In most early accounts Medea and Circe are refered to as Sorceress' not as witches.  Though I've seen some accounts that also identify Circe as an Enchantress.  In the few references I can think of off the top of my head "Witch" is used as a verb to describe an action ''i.e. sing in her witches voice..Call up a witches gales".  But those actions are not connection to brewing potions, making charms or poisons or other such actions.

The major seperator I've seen is that Sorceress were identifed with the usage of Poisons, brews, charms, and other things associated to plant potions.  Medea is especially noted for the usage of such items through out THE ODESSEY and THE ARGONAUTICA.  Even when she kills her children it is seen as a sorceress not a witch thing.

Being an Earth Goddess and Chthonic Goddess Hekate / Hecate would be well associated to the usages of potions, brews, poisons and other natural concoctions for healing, killing or manipulating and making people do as you desired.  In some arguments I've read Hekate is though to be the teacehr of such arts but as sorceress became corrupted and identifed to witches in general so to did Hekate / Hecate as the goddess who taught such arts.

In stories and saga's such as THE ODESSEY, THE ARGONAUTICA, METAMORPHOSES, THE EPISTLES of Ovid, they are refered to as Sorceress.

It really does not become common to identify them as Witches until the Roman period and in many of the translations of the 1800's.  

IN THE NATURAL HISTORY by Pliny The Elder "Thessala" is broken down to identify an enchantress, sorceress or a witch being commonly identified by the Romans to signify so clearly the three were something seperate but also shared commonalities.

But as I stated one has to read the various translations and see how the author used the word and the time frame of its translation.  But in most early Greek usages it was sorceress that was used, enchantress at times or occasionally something similiar to magician.

Where you see it really cross over is during the Roman Imperial Period (rough 27 BC - 476 AD) and Roman Provencial period (100 - 400 AD).  These two periods overlap but significanly notate the change from Greek control and influence to Roman controll and influnce through out the former Greek colonies and Greece itself.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2011, 09:44:41 pm by monsnoleedra »

Melamphoros

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Re: Relationships between gods - going beyond the myth
« Reply #26 on: September 25, 2011, 10:08:12 pm »
Quote from: monsnoleedra;22242
In most early accounts Medea and Circe are refered to as Sorceress' not as witches.  Though I've seen some accounts that also identify Circe as an Enchantress.  In the few references I can think of off the top of my head "Witch" is used as a verb to describe an action ''i.e. sing in her witches voice..Call up a witches gales".  But those actions are not connection to brewing potions, making charms or poisons or other such actions.

The major seperator I've seen is that Sorceress were identifed with the usage of Poisons, brews, charms, and other things associated to plant potions.  Medea is especially noted for the usage of such items through out THE ODESSEY and THE ARGONAUTICA.  Even when she kills her children it is seen as a sorceress not a witch thing.


And the ancient Greek words for these are?  I'm sorry, but without more it comes off more as a matter of which translation one uses.  Some people may use different words to describe the same thing.

Quote

It really does not become common to identify them as Witches until the Roman period and in many of the translations of the 1800's.  

IN THE NATURAL HISTORY by Pliny The Elder "Thessala" is broken down to identify an enchantress, sorceress or a witch being commonly identified by the Romans to signify so clearly the three were something seperate but also shared commonalities.

But as I stated one has to read the various translations and see how the author used the word and the time frame of its translation.  But in most early Greek usages it was sorceress that was used, enchantress at times or occasionally something similiar to magician.


Wait, you ARE going by translations here?  Translations are not very helpful in this case as I was asking how the ancients would have used the words in question (and more importantly, what the words are) and not what someone millennia later would use them.

Quote

Where you see it really cross over is during the Roman Imperial Period (rough 27 BC - 476 AD) and Roman Provencial period (100 - 400 AD).  These two periods overlap but significanly notate the change from Greek control and influence to Roman controll and influnce through out the former Greek colonies and Greece itself.

 
I was specifically asking for how the Greeks would call them, not the Romans.


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catja6

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Re: Relationships between gods - going beyond the myth
« Reply #27 on: September 25, 2011, 10:19:16 pm »
Quote from: Melamphoros;22247
And the ancient Greek words for these are?  I'm sorry, but without more it comes off more as a matter of which translation one uses.  Some people may use different words to describe the same thing.
Wait, you ARE going by translations here?  Translations are not very helpful in this case as I was asking how the ancients would have used the words in question (and more importantly, what the words are) and not what someone millennia later would use them.


My thoughts exactly.  English has a much larger vocabulary than Greek, and translators pick the word that seems most likely to convey the nuances IN ENGLISH that the translator wants (or, you know, just sounds best with the rhythm they're going for -- translation is an artistic endeavor too).  "Sorceress," in English, implies something more powerful, more hierarchical, and dealing with a higher range of spiritual entities than does "witch" -- "witch," by contrast, in English often tends to imply village women messing about with herbs.  "Sorceress," as the more grand and priestess-y term, was likely chosen as a way of conveying the power of those like Medea and Circe, who were basically demi-goddesses.  So you're not going to get far in an argument about "how the ancient Greeks viewed X term" when you base your arguments on ENGLISH words.

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Re: Relationships between gods - going beyond the myth
« Reply #28 on: September 25, 2011, 10:30:57 pm »
Quote from: catja6;22251
My thoughts exactly.  English has a much larger vocabulary than Greek, and translators pick the word that seems most likely to convey the nuances IN ENGLISH that the translator wants (or, you know, just sounds best with the rhythm they're going for -- translation is an artistic endeavor too).  "Sorceress," in English, implies something more powerful, more hierarchical, and dealing with a higher range of spiritual entities than does "witch" -- "witch," by contrast, in English often tends to imply village women messing about with herbs.  "Sorceress," as the more grand and priestess-y term, was likely chosen as a way of conveying the power of those like Medea and Circe, who were basically demi-goddesses.  So you're not going to get far in an argument about "how the ancient Greeks viewed X term" when you base your arguments on ENGLISH words.

 
Expanding on this, I've seen the Greek word pharmakeia translated as BOTH witch and sorceress (as well as being related to the words for "poison" and 'medicine").


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catja6

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Re: Relationships between gods - going beyond the myth
« Reply #29 on: September 25, 2011, 10:33:57 pm »
Quote from: Melamphoros;22253
Expanding on this, I've seen the Greek word pharmakeia translated as BOTH witch and sorceress (as well as being related to the words for "poison" and 'medicine").

 
Yes, exactly!  English has multiple different and nuanced terms for communicating the idea of "female magic worker," so the translator chooses the one with the implications and formality s/he wishes to convey.

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