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Author Topic: Relationships between gods - going beyond the myth  (Read 6711 times)

SkySamuelle

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Relationships between gods - going beyond the myth
« on: September 24, 2011, 10:50:41 am »
This is matter that is been on my mind for a long awhile, so I hope a few of my fellow cauldronites will find of some interest.

As hard polytheist, I believe gods evolve and interact with each other over the ages, outside and beyod what our mythologies suggest.
Example - there's little mythology tying Hekate, the goddess I serve, with Dionysos and Hermes, but among Her followers is shared personal gnosis that She is close to both of Them... which is not entirely surprising as they run in the same circles and share a few areas of interest. Often, if you work with Her, Dionysos and Hermes tune in as well- I have a theory about that, on how working with Hekate can come with stagnation phases that necessitate the type of disruption Hermes and Dionysos can easily provide.

At the same ways, I read about at least one Aepheastus follower that remarked about how she was not well-liked by Aphrodite, because marital relationship between Her and her god were hardly smooth- in her upg, Aphrodite finds her husband to be quite boring, while Aephestus much prefers Athene's company over his wife.


In other histances, there are followers of a certain deity that are asked to not seek contact with another cetain deity their patron dosn't get along.


So this got me thinking about what we learned in our practices about how our deities interact with each othere, about which gods go along (or don't ) with which other gods.

What's your experience or opinion on this subject?
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Valdi

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Re: Relationships between gods - going beyond the myth
« Reply #1 on: September 24, 2011, 11:39:38 am »
Quote from: SkySamuelle;21955
What's your experience or opinion on this subject?

 
One of my thoughts on hard polytheism is, do the gods exist as one group of divinities who embody certain roles, or do they exist in all of them? For example, is Jupiter = Indra = Thor = Perun = Zeus, or is Jupiter =/= Zeus =/= Indra =/= Perun, and so on?

If so, what makes them different? Do they run nations? Religions? How did they come to be? And so on and so forth. I find it quite confusing, but that's no surprise because I've spent most of my spiritual life as a panentheistic monist, and only recently got into soft polytheism, now leaning slightly more towards a form of hard polytheism.


Not really any experience, or opinions, as such, but something that's been confusing me for a while: how do people understand these to be?

Lokabrenna

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Re: Relationships between gods - going beyond the myth
« Reply #2 on: September 24, 2011, 11:42:46 am »
Quote from: SkySamuelle;21955


What's your experience or opinion on this subject?


I recall another thread where this topic came up, and a couple Cauldronites mentioned that Apollo and Brighid don't seem to get along. (As in, they were told by one not to honour the other.)

I suspect gods are very much like mortals. They have their drinking buddies and their lovers and gods they can't stand to be in the same room with for an extended period of time (except, perhaps, at occasions where everyone is expected to be civil).

SkySamuelle

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Re: Relationships between gods - going beyond the myth
« Reply #3 on: September 24, 2011, 12:23:11 pm »
Quote from: Valdi;21960
One of my thoughts on hard polytheism is, do the gods exist as one group of divinities who embody certain roles, or do they exist in all of them? For example, is Jupiter = Indra = Thor = Perun = Zeus, or is Jupiter =/= Zeus =/= Indra =/= Perun, and so on?

If so, what makes them different? Do they run nations? Religions? How did they come to be? And so on and so forth. I find it quite confusing, but that's no surprise because I've spent most of my spiritual life as a panentheistic monist, and only recently got into soft polytheism, now leaning slightly more towards a form of hard polytheism.


Not really any experience, or opinions, as such, but something that's been confusing me for a while: how do people understand these to be?

 
I used to wonder about that as well, when I first approached polytheism. My opinion after working different gods is that, as they seem to have each their distinct modus operandi, their distinct preferences in food and personality, they are all different entities, even if they take on a similiar function in different pantheons.

I think that certain gods can to feel more attuned wih certains cultures and populations and choose to be more 'revealing' there than elsewhere.
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Pain and Light

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Re: Relationships between gods - going beyond the myth
« Reply #4 on: September 24, 2011, 03:52:19 pm »
Quote from: Lokabrenna;21961
I recall another thread where this topic came up, and a couple Cauldronites mentioned that Apollo and Brighid don't seem to get along. (As in, they were told by one not to honour the other.)

 

I'm probably one of the people you're thinking of, and I can say that I know of some person who was forbidden by Apollo to have anything to do with Brigid (awkward, as her husband was a devotee of Brigid....) - I don't know a lot of detail, as this was told to me secondhand by a clos friend of that person but I personally have only experienced direct hostility from Brigid- but had others try to tell me that I've got to be mistaken, it's got to actually be comnig from Apollo because Brigid would never do that. In my case, it's Brigid through and through, and I really don't think it has anyhting to do with Apollo- as far as I'm concerned, he could care less if I were to have anyhing to do with Brigid. I've been told to keep away from a couple of other deities- Artemis and Odin, though I'm not exactly sure if the staying away from Artemis still stands as some thigns have changed drastically since that was requested of me..

I've also known several people who worshipped both Brigid and Apollo quite closely. I really think the mixture of gods that any given person might have has a lot to do with that person and their relationship with those gods.

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Re: Relationships between gods - going beyond the myth
« Reply #5 on: September 24, 2011, 04:29:46 pm »
Quote from: SkySamuelle;21955


What's your experience or opinion on this subject?

 
Aset has told me to not honor Oshun and Freyja.  I think the reason is they are too much alike and Aset for me wants the most of my attention.  I do know of at least one person who honors both Aset and Oshun.  So I think it varies.  

Aset and Set seem to be a lot alike, but engage in their work on opposite spectrums.  Both want their own shrine space if possible, both are blunt and both challenge the King in their own way.
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Re: Relationships between gods - going beyond the myth
« Reply #6 on: September 24, 2011, 05:44:23 pm »
Quote from: SkySamuelle;21955
:


The link between Hermes and Hekate isn't totally UPG; I think it's Sarah Iles Johnston in Hekate Soteira who mentions that they were often linked together in magic workings.  As you said, it makes perfect sense -- they're both concerned with magic and the cthonic and boundary-crossing.

SkySamuelle

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Re: Relationships between gods - going beyond the myth
« Reply #7 on: September 24, 2011, 06:37:23 pm »
Quote from: catja6;22006
The link between Hermes and Hekate isn't totally UPG; I think it's Sarah Iles Johnston in Hekate Soteira who mentions that they were often linked together in magic workings.  As you said, it makes perfect sense -- they're both concerned with magic and the cthonic and boundary-crossing.

 
and there's at least two sources that state they were viewed as lovers/consorts:
Quote


Hekate was probably described as the consort of Khthonian (Underworld) Hermes in the cults of Thessalian Pherai and Eleusis. Both gods were leaders of the ghosts of the dead, and were associated with the spring-time return of Persephone.

Pausanias, Description of Greece 1. 38. 7 (trans. Jones) (Greek travelogue C2nd A.D.) :
"The hero Eleusis, after whom the city [of Eleusis] is named, some assert to be a son of Hermes and of Daeira [Hekate?], daughter of Okeanos."

Propertius, Elegies 2. 29c (trans. Goold) (Roman elegy C1st B.C.) :
"Brimo [Hekate?], who as legend tells, by the waters of Boebeis [in Thessalia] laid her virgin body at Mercurius’ [Hermes’] side."




quoted by oi theoi.:)


The connection to Dionysos is harder to track historically, but there are similiarities there too. Both Dionysos and Hekate have a Chtonion side, both are associated with magic and prophecy and Hekate's gift of sacred lunacy is quite similiar to a Maenad ecstatic delirium.

There's saying that both were worshipped in Asia Minor too.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2011, 06:38:35 pm by SkySamuelle »
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Shadow

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Re: Relationships between gods - going beyond the myth
« Reply #8 on: September 24, 2011, 07:19:34 pm »
Quote from: Pain and Light;21994
I've also known several people who worshipped both Brigid and Apollo quite closely. I really think the mixture of gods that any given person might have has a lot to do with that person and their relationship with those gods.

I was thinking along similar lines when reading the op. I am only just beginning to work on building relationships with 3 deities and so have no personal experience. I do wonder though if being told to stay away from certain gods is more about the person in question and less about the gods themselves.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2011, 07:21:04 pm by Shadow »

Melamphoros

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Re: Relationships between gods - going beyond the myth
« Reply #9 on: September 24, 2011, 07:36:59 pm »
Quote from: Lokabrenna;21961
I recall another thread where this topic came up, and a couple Cauldronites mentioned that Apollo and Brighid don't seem to get along. (As in, they were told by one not to honour the other.)

 
And similarly, Poseidon and Manannan Mac Lir seem to be rather hostile toward each other.


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monsnoleedra

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Re: Relationships between gods - going beyond the myth
« Reply #10 on: September 24, 2011, 08:08:21 pm »
Quote from: SkySamuelle;21955
..
Example - there's little mythology tying Hekate, the goddess I serve, with Dionysos and Hermes, but among Her followers is shared personal gnosis that She is close to both of Them... which is not entirely surprising as they run in the same circles and share a few areas of interest. Often, if you work with Her, Dionysos and Hermes tune in as well- I have a theory about that, on how working with Hekate can come with stagnation phases that necessitate the type of disruption Hermes and Dionysos can easily provide. ..


I agree on the Hekate & Hermes link.  Not sure about the Dionysos & Hekate link.  Everything I've read seem's to imply that it would more so be an Artemis & Dionysos link, especially when dealing with boundaries, nature and orgasmic rites (not sexual persay).  Can't recall the exact spot now but there is one temple that was co-dedicated to both Dionysos & Artemis.

Relationship wise there are things i've experienced that make me wonder.  For instance I am strongly devoted to Hekate but Kali came to me to pass a message to one of her followers I know.  Having both of them in my mind at the same time with Hekate saying I could speak but telling Kali to remember I belong to her.  Now does that indicate a relationship in the heavens?  Probably not for Hekate left no doubt who belong to whom and that it was with her permission and approval.

Yet between Hekate and Artemis thier is no sign of stife and they seem to work or completement one another.  Perhaps even from the historical accounts where you have Artemis-Hekate / Hekate-Artemis or even the joining of thier histories at Ephesos and the Taurian Artemis with Ighphenia (Hekate).

Yet I can tell you even though historians say Artemis and Diana are two faces of the same goddess Artemis does not buy into that fact.  It was with no doubt that Artemis reminded quite clearly that a statue in Greece I started to buy was of that "Roman" and not her.

I collect Greek & Roman coins which bear the image of Artemis or Hekate.  Artemis is fine with the coins that can be said to depict her or Diana based upon the time and design but coins that clearly indicate Diana had better say Diana in my records and not her.  She really dislikes the Ephesos cult idol being called Diana of Ephesos for instance.

So while Artemis seem's to really dislike or just tolerate Diana she has no problem with Bastet or Pahket being associated to her and her to them.  I was wondering one night about the connection between Artemis and Bastet when I discovered an area called Spiro De Artemis in Egypt which is the Grotto of Artemis where the Temple of Pahket is located.  Yet I had done perhaps thousands of searches but never come across that before.

Other gods / goddesses its harder to say as I do not work with them nor do those I follow say or indicate much about it.

Garm

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Re: Relationships between gods - going beyond the myth
« Reply #11 on: September 24, 2011, 08:34:34 pm »
Quote from: Valdi;21960
One of my thoughts on hard polytheism is, do the gods exist as one group of divinities who embody certain roles, or do they exist in all of them? For example, is Jupiter = Indra = Thor = Perun = Zeus, or is Jupiter =/= Zeus =/= Indra =/= Perun, and so on?

If so, what makes them different? Do they run nations? Religions? How did they come to be? And so on and so forth. I find it quite confusing, but that's no surprise because I've spent most of my spiritual life as a panentheistic monist, and only recently got into soft polytheism, now leaning slightly more towards a form of hard polytheism.


Not really any experience, or opinions, as such, but something that's been confusing me for a while: how do people understand these to be?


Depends on the nature of the individual god, I don't think all the beings classed as gods are nescessarily the same species.  There are deities that can be described as very powerful spirits and keep to that form, some amourphous configuration of sentient energy.  They remain continual, and can go under different names.  Some deities want a focal point for whatever reasons. They will construct for themselves a physical form or even a number of them they can switch back and forth and even play mix and match with.  Humans are one of the most all around useful for them to copy.  But once they get the hardware they need the operating system to go with it, the concioussness they are used to is not going to be an even match for running that particular system.  So copying the OS results in the aquisition of language and some cultural baggage and this becomes how they define themselves.  In that way the distinct cultural pantheons are formed.  The more of these that come in to exsistence the more they can divide up whatever work there is for them to do in maintaining the earth.

NOTE: this is just the impression I have formed and have had confirmed in conversations with the parties involved, strictly UPG FWIW YMMV
« Last Edit: September 24, 2011, 08:36:43 pm by Garm »
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Garm

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Re: Relationships between gods - going beyond the myth
« Reply #12 on: September 24, 2011, 08:39:14 pm »
Quote from: Melamphoros;22029
And similarly, Poseidon and Manannan Mac Lir seem to be rather hostile toward each other.


Hela doesn't seem to care much for the Morrigan either, in my experience

I think we might have pattern here
« Last Edit: September 24, 2011, 08:40:55 pm by Garm »
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monsnoleedra

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Re: Relationships between gods - going beyond the myth
« Reply #13 on: September 24, 2011, 08:51:06 pm »
Quote from: Garm;22033
Depends on the nature of the individual god, I don't think all the beings classed as gods are nescessarily the same species.  ..


Definately true when you look to the Nordic gods / goddesses.  You have Giants which are gods / goddesses yet are clearly not Aesir or Vanatru.  Loki jumps out at me right off the bat in that category.  I have a vague recall of something similiar in the Teutonic based pantheon.

Can't recall any in the Roman or Greek pantheons though.  Possible I suppose in the Egyptian pantheon when you look to all the anamorphic changes of human / animal combinations.

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Re: Relationships between gods - going beyond the myth
« Reply #14 on: September 24, 2011, 09:16:37 pm »
Quote from: monsnoleedra;22035
Definately true when you look to the Nordic gods / goddesses.  You have Giants which are gods / goddesses yet are clearly not Aesir or Vanatru.  Loki jumps out at me right off the bat in that category.  I have a vague recall of something similiar in the Teutonic based pantheon.

Can't recall any in the Roman or Greek pantheons though.  Possible I suppose in the Egyptian pantheon when you look to all the anamorphic changes of human / animal combinations.


In my case, I don't find that true of the Norse at all. The giants and god are not different species, and the giants are not gods. The gods and giants are different tribes, is all. Different communities. The Aesir are only 'gods' in that they are the reginn on Midgard, not because it's some species indicator or existance of being (verb).
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