collapse

* "Unable to verify referring url. Please go back and try again" Problem Logging In?

If you get an "Unable to verify referring url. Please go back and try again" error when you try to log in, you need to be sure you are accessing the board with a url that starts with "https://ecauldron.com".  If it starts with https://www.ecauldron.com" (or "http://www.ecauldron.com") you will get this error because "www.ecauldron.com" is not technically the same website as "ecauldron.com". Moving to the more secure "https" means it is more picky about such things.

Author Topic: Pop Culture Paganism: Loose Canon  (Read 2870 times)

Faemon

  • Grand Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2012
  • Posts: 1229
  • Total likes: 9
    • View Profile
Pop Culture Paganism: Loose Canon
« on: January 21, 2015, 09:31:14 am »
Pop culture media reviewer Lindsay Ellis (a.k.a. The Nostalgia Chick) did a review of the modern interpretations of Hades beginning from the Disney cartoon. No, not that one. The Spring Maiden short animation, which had a lot of operatic singing and a Hades/Pluto kidnapping a spring goddess and giving her diamonds and he wears red tights and has imp horns.

Apparently ever since the other Disney version, Pop Culture Hades has been wanting to take over Olympus (except in the Percy Jackson and The Lightning Thief book, where he's more than a little miffed that everybody just presumes that, because trying to just run the Underworld is a taxing job. I guess that didn't make it into the movie, which I didn't watch because I read that they tried to combine Annabell and Clarisse into one character which I wasn't even going to see how badly that didn't work. Oh, and I watched the sequel on HBO and Tyson wasn't special because gods forbid anybody on the silver screen have a less than glamorous neurodivergence.)

I did wonder aloud somewhere else if syncretism was still happening, and I guess Pan-Satan-Hades could be one possible modern manifestation of that.

Just throwing this out there to see what thoughts come in.
The Codex of Poesy: wishcraft, faelatry, alchemy, and other slight misspellings.
the Otherfaith: Chromatic Genderbending Faery Monarchs of Technology. DeviantArt

Scent of Pine

  • Sr. Apprentice
  • ****
  • Join Date: Dec 2012
  • Posts: 63
  • Country: 00
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Pop Culture Paganism: Loose Canon
« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2015, 11:15:37 am »
Quote from: Faemon;169680
Pop culture media reviewer Lindsay Ellis (a.k.a. The Nostalgia Chick) did a review of the modern interpretations of Hades beginning from the Disney cartoon. No, not that one. The Spring Maiden short animation, which had a lot of operatic singing and a Hades/Pluto kidnapping a spring goddess and giving her diamonds and he wears red tights and has imp horns.



Just throwing this out there to see what thoughts come in.




Here's the link to the Disney 1934 "The Goddess of Eternal Spring".  I'd never seen that.  Thanks for sharing it.

It's bizarre that Hades is combined with the more modern image of Satan.  I think that there is a tendency for us modern westerners to lump all "underworld" or "land of the dead" into Heaven/Hell.  Most people never think any deeper than that.  Maybe it's mental laziness, or maybe people just don't question their thoughts.

I haven't read the review you mentioned.  Guess I'll go track it down.

Faemon

  • Grand Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2012
  • Posts: 1229
  • Total likes: 9
    • View Profile
Re: Pop Culture Paganism: Loose Canon
« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2015, 11:50:26 am »
Quote from: Scent of Pine;169683
I haven't read the review you mentioned.  Guess I'll go track it down.


Whoops! Silly me forgot the link:


Quote
It's bizarre that Hades is combined with the more modern image of Satan.  
 
I think that there is a tendency for us modern westerners to lump all "underworld" or "land of the dead" into Heaven/Hell.  Most people never think any deeper than that.  Maybe it's mental laziness, or maybe people just don't question their thoughts.


Part of me believes in the collective consciousness having some undercurrent of divine inspiration, but other times I have a disdain for the dreaded popular because they more often come off to me as undercurrents of, as you say, shallowness and laziness. Satan-Hades leans towards the latter to me right now. :p
The Codex of Poesy: wishcraft, faelatry, alchemy, and other slight misspellings.
the Otherfaith: Chromatic Genderbending Faery Monarchs of Technology. DeviantArt

Melamphoros

  • Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 2746
  • Total likes: 2
    • View Profile
Re: Pop Culture Paganism: Loose Canon
« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2015, 02:08:25 pm »
Quote from: Faemon;169680
Pop culture media reviewer Lindsay Ellis (a.k.a. The Nostalgia Chick) did a review of the modern interpretations of Hades beginning from the Disney cartoon. No, not that one.

 
And here I thought I would be the only one on this forum to see that review.

I'm probably going to agree with Lindsay and say that it's the result of a convoluted translation issue.  I really don't see any similarities between Hades and Satan.  Their mythologies and roles they play in their respective religions (even if we take the original role of Satan as God's prosecuting attorney) are completely different.


Jesus saves, Allah forgives, Cthulhu thinks you will make a great sandwich.
My Spiritual Blog

Pteranotropi

  • Journeyman
  • *****
  • Join Date: Mar 2013
  • Posts: 145
  • Total likes: 1
    • View Profile
Re: Pop Culture Paganism: Loose Canon
« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2015, 04:07:12 pm »
Quote from: Scent of Pine;169683


Here's the link to the Disney 1934 "The Goddess of Eternal Spring".  I'd never seen that.  Thanks for sharing it.

It's bizarre that Hades is combined with the more modern image of Satan.  I think that there is a tendency for us modern westerners to lump all "underworld" or "land of the dead" into Heaven/Hell.  Most people never think any deeper than that.  Maybe it's mental laziness, or maybe people just don't question their thoughts.

I haven't read the review you mentioned.  Guess I'll go track it down.

 


It's not a new thing. Christians have always equated Hades, as well as other Underworld gods like Hel, with Satan, the very idea of Hell being born from these concepts. Hell, Dante's Inferno is basically the greek underworld with a punishment revamping.

Riverwolf

  • Sr. Newbie
  • **
  • Join Date: Jan 2015
  • Posts: 19
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Pop Culture Paganism: Loose Canon
« Reply #5 on: January 29, 2015, 05:30:10 pm »
Quote from: Faemon;169680

I did wonder aloud somewhere else if syncretism was still happening, and I guess Pan-Satan-Hades could be one possible modern manifestation of that.

 
I suspect that it's such syncreticism that gives us many of the mythic images we develop. Images for various archetypes shift from time to time, culture to culture, and art feeds back into itself.

I, personally, don't really see a problem with it. I think that even though Hades seems to show no interest in taking over Olympus in the surviving myths, the concept does have strong thematic potential. I think it's fine to adapt, and add to, the Old Stories for personal taste or modern expression. Heck, it's something I do all the time. The problem is that the stories that NC cited... don't really appear to take full thematic advantage of the idea. Like she heavily implies, most of them seem to do it for no other reason than Disney did it.

That's what I find most frustrating. I'm not as interested in "accuracy", because even in the surviving stories, there's numerous variations that contradict each other. But I am frustrated by wasted potential.
naho apre atra

Pteranotropi

  • Journeyman
  • *****
  • Join Date: Mar 2013
  • Posts: 145
  • Total likes: 1
    • View Profile
Re: Pop Culture Paganism: Loose Canon
« Reply #6 on: January 29, 2015, 06:50:42 pm »
Quote from: Riverwolf;170189
I suspect that it's such syncreticism that gives us many of the mythic images we develop. Images for various archetypes shift from time to time, culture to culture, and art feeds back into itself.

I, personally, don't really see a problem with it. I think that even though Hades seems to show no interest in taking over Olympus in the surviving myths, the concept does have strong thematic potential. I think it's fine to adapt, and add to, the Old Stories for personal taste or modern expression. Heck, it's something I do all the time. The problem is that the stories that NC cited... don't really appear to take full thematic advantage of the idea. Like she heavily implies, most of them seem to do it for no other reason than Disney did it.

That's what I find most frustrating. I'm not as interested in "accuracy", because even in the surviving stories, there's numerous variations that contradict each other. But I am frustrated by wasted potential.

 

I suppose you're entitled to that, but I think it cheapens Hades - he is an inexorable but ultimately neutral force -, and ignores actual attempts in mythology at taking over Olympus... by Poseidon and Hera.

Riverwolf

  • Sr. Newbie
  • **
  • Join Date: Jan 2015
  • Posts: 19
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Pop Culture Paganism: Loose Canon
« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2015, 07:18:57 pm »
Quote from: Pteranotropi;170193
I suppose you're entitled to that, but I think it cheapens Hades - he is an inexorable but ultimately neutral force -, and ignores actual attempts in mythology at taking over Olympus... by Poseidon and Hera.

 
Fair point. I do admit that I have somewhat limited knowledge of Greek mythology, and so wasn't aware of such attempts by either.
naho apre atra

Faemon

  • Grand Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2012
  • Posts: 1229
  • Total likes: 9
    • View Profile
Re: Pop Culture Paganism: Loose Canon
« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2015, 02:10:12 am »
Quote from: Pteranotropi;170193
Quote from: Riverwolf;170189
I suspect that it's such syncreticism that gives us many of the mythic images we develop. Images for various archetypes shift from time to time, culture to culture, and art feeds back into itself.

I, personally, don't really see a problem with it. I think that even though Hades seems to show no interest in taking over Olympus in the surviving myths, the concept does have strong thematic potential. I think it's fine to adapt, and add to, the Old Stories for personal taste or modern expression. Heck, it's something I do all the time. The problem is that the stories that NC cited... don't really appear to take full thematic advantage of the idea. Like she heavily implies, most of them seem to do it for no other reason than Disney did it.

That's what I find most frustrating. I'm not as interested in "accuracy", because even in the surviving stories, there's numerous variations that contradict each other. But I am frustrated by wasted potential.

I suppose you're entitled to that, but I think it cheapens Hades - he is an inexorable but ultimately neutral force -, and ignores actual attempts in mythology at taking over Olympus... by Poseidon and Hera.

Those are all fascinating insights. Why does media trend towards the cheap ideas? Is the collective consciousness just that much more uncomfortable with death than natural disaster or women? Or is there some author-audience continuum weirdness where whoever churns out Hades-related media thinks a syncretism with Satan is what sells and people will watch because they like it, but the audience really doesn't care or mind for the most part or it doesn't bother them(us) enough to complain too loudly about getting the mythology wrong or uncreatively done, a sentiment that doesn't get by in a way that translates through ticket sales or whatever…hence the strange trend based on a mistranslation of an appropriated bit of culture?
« Last Edit: January 31, 2015, 02:10:51 am by Faemon »
The Codex of Poesy: wishcraft, faelatry, alchemy, and other slight misspellings.
the Otherfaith: Chromatic Genderbending Faery Monarchs of Technology. DeviantArt

Riverwolf

  • Sr. Newbie
  • **
  • Join Date: Jan 2015
  • Posts: 19
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Pop Culture Paganism: Loose Canon
« Reply #9 on: January 31, 2015, 05:44:19 am »
Quote from: Faemon;170247
Those are all fascinating insights. Why does media trend towards the cheap ideas? Is the collective consciousness just that much more uncomfortable with death than natural disaster or women? Or is there some author-audience continuum weirdness where whoever churns out Hades-related media thinks a syncretism with Satan is what sells and people will watch because they like it, but the audience really doesn't care or mind for the most part or it doesn't bother them(us) enough to complain too loudly about getting the mythology wrong or uncreatively done, a sentiment that doesn't get by in a way that translates through ticket sales or whatever…hence the strange trend based on a mistranslation of an appropriated bit of culture?

 
A lot of it could be the fact that media corporations like to play things safe to ensure profits, and that typically means doing things as others have done them, simply because those others made millions. As the work those corporations put out impress upon so many, smaller artists will often just assume that that's just how it was.

I took a quick look at how Hades is portrayed in the God of War games, since I haven't played them in a while and forgot. I don't know how well his character matches the mythology, but he does have a horned helmet, with fire coming out of it. Sure the God of War games weren't exactly indie-developed, but I understand the first game was a relatively small-time project; certainly it didn't have the budget it would get later as an established franchise.

Then again... where did the equation of fire with death in Western culture come from, anyway? I don't know of anything in the Greek Underworld that specifically deals with fire, Hel is an icy world, I admittedly don't know how Celtic mythology depicts the afterlife but I've never heard any mention of a fiery world... so where does it come from? Even in Dante's Inferno, the deepest circle is an ice world, and there's only a few layers that involve fire. That tells me that even the mention of the "Lake of Fire" in the New Testament wouldn't have necessarily been the primary influence, at least at first. The best that I can think of is that it's somehow related to Muspelheim and Surt, or maybe Paradise Lost.
naho apre atra

Melamphoros

  • Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 2746
  • Total likes: 2
    • View Profile
Re: Pop Culture Paganism: Loose Canon
« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2015, 04:49:27 pm »
Quote from: Riverwolf;170248
A lot of it could be the fact that media corporations like to play things safe to ensure profits, and that typically means doing things as others have done them, simply because those others made millions. As the work those corporations put out impress upon so many, smaller artists will often just assume that that's just how it was.


I agree with this.  To give another example, just look at the horror genre.

Everyone "knows" that Victor Frankenstein stitched his creation from corpses and reanimated it by lightning.  However, the original novel doesn't say exactly what the process was (there's a mention of charnel houses and slaughterhouses, but that's it -- just a mention).  Since Universal's Frankenstein and Bride of Frankenstein became so ingrained in popular culture, many people are unaware of what's exactly in the book.  And that's before we take into account that many people call the Creature "Frankenstein."

And that's just one example.  The Wolfman and its sequels practically invented (or at least codified) all of the common werewolf tropes (including a bite from a werewolf would turn you into one, the business with the full moon and the weakness to silver) and no vampire was ever depicted being killed by sunlight until Nosferatu (not Universal, but still a movie).  The latter is especially funny when you read comments saying "Dracula never went out into sunlight!"

Quote

Then again... where did the equation of fire with death in Western culture come from, anyway? I don't know of anything in the Greek Underworld that specifically deals with fire, Hel is an icy world, I admittedly don't know how Celtic mythology depicts the afterlife but I've never heard any mention of a fiery world... so where does it come from? Even in Dante's Inferno, the deepest circle is an ice world, and there's only a few layers that involve fire. That tells me that even the mention of the "Lake of Fire" in the New Testament wouldn't have necessarily been the primary influence, at least at first. The best that I can think of is that it's somehow related to Muspelheim and Surt, or maybe Paradise Lost.

 
The Greek Underworld had a river of fire (Phlegethon) which (iirc) Dante describes as a river of boiling blood.  Interesting that you bring up Paradise Lost.  From some of the stuff I have been looking at, Milton describes all the rivers of Hades as also being rivers of Hell.


Jesus saves, Allah forgives, Cthulhu thinks you will make a great sandwich.
My Spiritual Blog

Riverwolf

  • Sr. Newbie
  • **
  • Join Date: Jan 2015
  • Posts: 19
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Pop Culture Paganism: Loose Canon
« Reply #11 on: January 31, 2015, 05:33:30 pm »
Quote from: Melamphoros;170261
I agree with this.  To give another example, just look at the horror genre.

Everyone "knows" that Victor Frankenstein stitched his creation from corpses and reanimated it by lightning.  However, the original novel doesn't say exactly what the process was (there's a mention of charnel houses and slaughterhouses, but that's it -- just a mention).  Since Universal's Frankenstein and Bride of Frankenstein became so ingrained in popular culture, many people are unaware of what's exactly in the book.  And that's before we take into account that many people call the Creature "Frankenstein."


It's interesting you bring up Frankenstein, because the original novel is subtitled "The Modern Prometheus". I've always felt that if Greek mythology had any analogue to the Christian Satan, it's Prometheus, not Hades.

Quote
The Greek Underworld had a river of fire (Phlegethon) which (iirc) Dante describes as a river of boiling blood.  Interesting that you bring up Paradise Lost.  From some of the stuff I have been looking at, Milton describes all the rivers of Hades as also being rivers of Hell.

 
I've admittedly not read even most of Paradise Lost (being a poem in Early Modern English, it's not exactly something that can just be casually read), but I do recall that many of the early verses describing Hell depict a world that's fully dark, but also very hot and fiery.

It really does seem more like a sort of amalgamation of things that just sort of came together.
naho apre atra

Faemon

  • Grand Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2012
  • Posts: 1229
  • Total likes: 9
    • View Profile
Re: Pop Culture Paganism: Loose Canon
« Reply #12 on: February 01, 2015, 02:55:12 pm »
Quote from: Riverwolf;170262
It's interesting you bring up Frankenstein, because the original novel is subtitled "The Modern Prometheus". I've always felt that if Greek mythology had any analogue to the Christian Satan, it's Prometheus, not Hades.

Thanks both of your for bringing this up and making this connection! Fanon is a curious thing.

Pometheus might be more analogous to the Satanist (Luciferan?) Satan in the sense of the act that goes against the rules of the big beard in the sky was beneficial to us mere mortals.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2015, 02:58:11 pm by Faemon »
The Codex of Poesy: wishcraft, faelatry, alchemy, and other slight misspellings.
the Otherfaith: Chromatic Genderbending Faery Monarchs of Technology. DeviantArt

Riverwolf

  • Sr. Newbie
  • **
  • Join Date: Jan 2015
  • Posts: 19
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Pop Culture Paganism: Loose Canon
« Reply #13 on: February 01, 2015, 03:44:39 pm »
Quote from: Faemon;170288
Thanks both of your for bringing this up and making this connection! Fanon is a curious thing.

Pometheus might be more analogous to the Satanist (Luciferan?) Satan in the sense of the act that goes against the rules of the big beard in the sky was beneficial to us mere mortals.

 
Indeed. Even in the larger Christian mythology, I feel more sympathy for the character of Satan/Lucifer, and very much agree with his declaration in Paradise Lost, "Better to reign in Hell than to serve in Heaven."

Heh. Funny thing is, Paradise Lost, Divine Comedy, and all those others could easily be considered a type of fan-fiction in their own rights. I certainly do.

I think a large reason why I'm generally sympathetic to pop culture interpretations of the Old Stories, even if they're watered down, is similar to why I'm sympathetic to fan-fiction as a concept. Stories live on by retelling and re-imagining. Trying to lock them to a specific time period or culture keeps them there indefinitely, only to gather dust except when scholars look at them.

Meanwhile the Gods live on, with the ones in charge of inspiration giving rise to new stories and retellings of old ones. I fully believe that all works of art and story, from the most sophisticated, profane, and mediocre, come from the Gods, the very Mead of Poetry. It's there, even when it's not fully recognized.
naho apre atra

Freesia

  • Journeyman
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jan 2014
  • Posts: 231
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Pop Culture Paganism: Loose Canon
« Reply #14 on: February 01, 2015, 06:35:26 pm »
Quote from: Riverwolf;170290


Funny thing is, Paradise Lost, Divine Comedy, and all those others could easily be considered a type of fan-fiction in their own rights. I certainly do.

I think a large reason why I'm generally sympathetic to pop culture interpretations of the Old Stories, even if they're watered down, is similar to why I'm sympathetic to fan-fiction as a concept. Stories live on by retelling and re-imagining. Trying to lock them to a specific time period or culture keeps them there indefinitely, only to gather dust except when scholars look at them.

Meanwhile the Gods live on, with the ones in charge of inspiration giving rise to new stories and retellings of old ones. I fully believe that all works of art and story, from the most sophisticated, profane, and mediocre, come from the Gods, the very Mead of Poetry. It's there, even when it's not fully recognized.

 
As a substitute teacher I used the Monster High characters in a Humanities lesson.

I do recall the Puritan minister Reverend Cotton?'s description of Hell in his New England sermons became the standard modern model of the place. Puritans did love torment by fire. My high school Latin teacher said that Heaven and Hell were taken from the Roman Bathhouse imagery. Heaven was the luxury of the Roman bath, while Hell was furnace below that the slaves toiled. When the Christians took over Rome they kept the Bathhouse imagery even though they saw the bathers as sinners and bathing as indulgence.

Tags:
 

Related Topics

  Subject / Started by Replies Last post
83 Replies
12209 Views
Last post July 24, 2013, 09:09:39 pm
by Jack
2 Replies
2357 Views
Last post May 24, 2013, 09:05:37 pm
by Jujulinda
19 Replies
3051 Views
Last post February 17, 2014, 04:48:04 am
by Freesia
86 Replies
9572 Views
Last post April 22, 2017, 02:58:11 pm
by Pusheen
14 Replies
1101 Views
Last post August 11, 2019, 08:19:58 pm
by Donal2018

* Who's Online

  • Dot Guests: 57
  • Dot Hidden: 0
  • Dot Users: 1
  • Dot Users Online:

* Please Donate!

The Cauldron's server is expensive and requires monthly payments. Please become a Bronze, Silver or Gold Donor if you can. Donations are needed every month. Without member support, we can't afford the server.

* In Memoriam

Chavi (2006)
Elspeth (2010)
Marilyn (2013)

* Cauldron Staff

Host:
Sunflower

Message Board Staff
Board Coordinator:
Darkhawk

Assistant Board Coordinator:
Aster Breo

Senior Staff:
Aisling, Jenett, Sefiru

Staff:
Allaya, Chatelaine, EclecticWheel, HarpingHawke, Kylara, PerditaPickle, rocquelaire

Discord Chat Staff
Chat Coordinator:
Morag

Cauldron Council:
Bob, Catja, Emma-Eldritch, Fausta, Jubes, Kelly, LyricFox, Phouka, Sperran, Star, Steve, Tana

Site Administrator:
Randall