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Author Topic: Omni-Deity?  (Read 3614 times)

HarpingHawke

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Omni-Deity?
« on: February 15, 2016, 08:45:07 pm »
I wasn't entirely sure how to title this, but lately I've been thinking about the possibility of an omniscient/omnipotent/omnipresent deity and how much I actually believe in the concept. (so far, not much--just in the vaguest, most agnostic sense). It's obviously a tenet of the Abrahamic faiths, but I was wondering if any of the non-Abrahamic people over here had thoughts to add about it.

In other words, do you believe there is some kind of omni[suffix] deity who...keeps things running, so to speak? If so, to what extent do you think their influence goes? If not, why do you not believe that? And can this deity coexist with science and evolutionary theory? (my thoughts are, if there is such a deity, then yes, because science is not incompatible with religion, but).

I look forward to hearing your thoughts!
"There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self." - Hemingway

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Re: Omni-Deity?
« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2016, 08:51:03 pm »
Quote from: HarpingHawke;186684
In other words, do you believe there is some kind of omni[suffix] deity who...keeps things running, so to speak?

 
Keeps things running?

Nope.

Is things running?  Maybe.  I have a streak of monistic pantheism in my theologies, not far off Tillich's approach.

Mostly this level of theological pondering is stuff I don't spend a lot of time on because it's waaaaaay too abstract for me.
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Juniperberry

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Re: Omni-Deity?
« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2016, 09:53:45 pm »
Quote from: HarpingHawke;186684
I wasn't entirely sure how to title this, but lately I've been thinking about the possibility of an omniscient/omnipotent/omnipresent deity and how much I actually believe in the concept. (so far, not much--just in the vaguest, most agnostic sense). It's obviously a tenet of the Abrahamic faiths, but I was wondering if any of the non-Abrahamic people over here had thoughts to add about it.

In other words, do you believe there is some kind of omni[suffix] deity who...keeps things running, so to speak? If so, to what extent do you think their influence goes? If not, why do you not believe that? And can this deity coexist with science and evolutionary theory? (my thoughts are, if there is such a deity, then yes, because science is not incompatible with religion, but).

I look forward to hearing your thoughts!

 
Historically, there is at least one example I know of of an omni-deity that was not Abrahamic: Regnator omnium deus. The Semnone Germanic tribe believed him to be the supreme ruler of all, the governor of the world.

I do believe there is an Omni-deity, who for me is most familiar in Christianity, but not exclusive to the teachings of Christianity. I think Christianity is currently the most accessible way, for me, to understand that Omni-deity (God) but not the actual full truth of him. Abrahamic religion is just a snapshot of a particular time's understanding of the Omni-deity, but not the full picture.  

I am entirely convinced that God, or the Omni-deity, is the absolute apex of science, technology, math, art, etc etc. If consciousness is a staircase and we are a step above monkeys and advanced alien life is a step above us, than God is that which exists at the very top. And the top is so completely incomprehensible, so completely different to what we understand as reality, so beyond the limits of our imagination, and so infinite, that God is capable (omni) in everything.

The lightning fast pace of our technological advances, our scientific discoveries, our explorations into what constitutes life and existence, do not move us further away from God but closer towards him. God, in my opinion, is the absolute mysterious answer of our universe and existence. An ant has no idea what a highway is, or what it's purpose may be, or even what a car is, despite living within the cracks. We are the ants struggling to define the nature and purpose of God despite living within the reality of him.  

And God is so within....everything. And since everything is within God I feel safe; I feel free to relax and to just be human, to enjoy what life has to offer. I am, in every second of my life, being cradled in the very essence of God.


And it's like...the more we come to understand about the world, the more we come to accept all the possibilities of God. Postbiological humanity? Artificial wombs? ASI? Gravitational waves? His miracles seem less like magic and more like science.


God, the Ommni-deity, IT is the very progress that we are eternally chasing after by hurtling ourselves into the Universe.

 


(Maybe a little OT. Had some built up thoughts that spilled over, sorry!)
The pace of progress in artificial intelligence (I’m not referring to narrow AI) is incredibly fast. [...] The risk of something seriously dangerous happening is in the five year timeframe. 10 years at most.--Elon Musk

I am in the camp that is concerned about super intelligence," [Bill] Gates wrote. "First the machines will do a lot of jobs for us and not be super intelligent. That should be positive if we manage it well. A few decades after that though the intelligence is strong enough to be a concern. I agree with Elon Musk and some others on this and don\'t understand why some people are not concerned."

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Re: Omni-Deity?
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2016, 10:55:06 pm »
Quote from: HarpingHawke;186684
I wasn't entirely sure how to title this, but lately I've been thinking about the possibility of an omniscient/omnipotent/omnipresent deity and how much I actually believe in the concept. (so far, not much--just in the vaguest, most agnostic sense). It's obviously a tenet of the Abrahamic faiths, but I was wondering if any of the non-Abrahamic people over here had thoughts to add about it.

In other words, do you believe there is some kind of omni[suffix] deity who...keeps things running, so to speak? If so, to what extent do you think their influence goes? If not, why do you not believe that? And can this deity coexist with science and evolutionary theory? (my thoughts are, if there is such a deity, then yes, because science is not incompatible with religion, but).

I look forward to hearing your thoughts!

 
Yeeeaaaah maybe sort of sometimes?

I do tend to think that the gods of polytheist societies tended to show up *with* those societies, and that if there's a creator god-- like, a deity that actually set things in motion, or that watches over the Universe-- it's something beyond what we're familiar with, theologically speaking.

I also tend to think that an omni-deity would be closer to a natural "law" than a conscious being. Not that it's a not-conscious being, but that it's more Law than conscious. (Did that make any sense?)

And I do think that any deity would have to coexist with science/evolutionary theory, because my general belief is that deities *have to* work within the realms of physical reality as much as the rest of us.

HarpingHawke

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Re: Omni-Deity?
« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2016, 11:43:30 pm »
Quote from: Ian288;186700
Yeeeaaaah maybe sort of sometimes?



I also tend to think that an omni-deity would be closer to a natural "law" than a conscious being. Not that it's a not-conscious being, but that it's more Law than conscious. (Did that make any sense?)


 
Yes this very much this

That's very close to what I'm thinking as well. Once again, I still don't know how I feel about this as a concept, but it makes sense, somewhat?
"There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self." - Hemingway

HarpingHawke

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Re: Omni-Deity?
« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2016, 11:46:44 pm »
Quote from: Juniperberry;186694

The lightning fast pace of our technological advances, our scientific discoveries, our explorations into what constitutes life and existence, do not move us further away from God but closer towards him. God, in my opinion, is the absolute mysterious answer of our universe and existence. An ant has no idea what a highway is, or what it's purpose may be, or even what a car is, despite living within the cracks. We are the ants struggling to define the nature and purpose of God despite living within the reality of him.  

And God is so within....everything. And since everything is within God I feel safe; I feel free to relax and to just be human, to enjoy what life has to offer. I am, in every second of my life, being cradled in the very essence of God.


And it's like...the more we come to understand about the world, the more we come to accept all the possibilities of God. Postbiological humanity? Artificial wombs? ASI? Gravitational waves? His miracles seem less like magic and more like science.


God, the Ommni-deity, IT is the very progress that we are eternally chasing after by hurtling ourselves into the Universe.


I might not hold the same views, but daaaaaang. That's giving me a lot to think about.
"There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self." - Hemingway

Juniperberry

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Re: Omni-Deity?
« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2016, 12:12:50 am »
Quote from: Ian288;186700
Yeeeaaaah maybe sort of sometimes?

I also tend to think that an omni-deity would be closer to a natural "law" than a conscious being. Not that it's a not-conscious being, but that it's more Law than conscious. (Did that make any sense?)

And I do think that any deity would have to coexist with science/evolutionary theory, because my general belief is that deities *have to* work within the realms of physical reality as much as the rest of us.

 
Quote from: HarpingHawke;186706
Yes this very much this

That's very close to what I'm thinking as well. Once again, I still don't know how I feel about this as a concept, but it makes sense, somewhat?



I mostly agree with you guys as well.

Awhile back I was reading Asimov's Robot Novels. The Three Laws of Robotics are close to Godel's Incomplete Theorem that states that there can never be an algorithm that is complete and consistent with *all* axioms of mathematics. If a robot cannot reconcile a mathematical (logical) paradox, it shuts down. But human intelligence has no problems with creativity and thinking outside the box.

The way I see it, God is like a robot*. But...Not. Just that God is "GOOD", and his "goodness" is like the Three Laws of Robotics or Godel's Theorem. Except God isn't subject to the Law, God is the Law of Goodness. Free will is simply humanity's ability to operate outside the Law (or theorem), and creatively bend the rules.




*Sometimes I think my spiritual side is just my brain's excuse to let the crazy take over. Thanks for humoring me! ;)
The pace of progress in artificial intelligence (I’m not referring to narrow AI) is incredibly fast. [...] The risk of something seriously dangerous happening is in the five year timeframe. 10 years at most.--Elon Musk

I am in the camp that is concerned about super intelligence," [Bill] Gates wrote. "First the machines will do a lot of jobs for us and not be super intelligent. That should be positive if we manage it well. A few decades after that though the intelligence is strong enough to be a concern. I agree with Elon Musk and some others on this and don\'t understand why some people are not concerned."

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Re: Omni-Deity?
« Reply #7 on: February 16, 2016, 06:05:05 am »
Quote from: HarpingHawke;186684
I wasn't entirely sure how to title this, but lately I've been thinking about the possibility of an omniscient/omnipotent/omnipresent deity and how much I actually believe in the concept. (so far, not much--just in the vaguest, most agnostic sense). It's obviously a tenet of the Abrahamic faiths, but I was wondering if any of the non-Abrahamic people over here had thoughts to add about it.

In other words, do you believe there is some kind of omni[suffix] deity who...keeps things running, so to speak? If so, to what extent do you think their influence goes? If not, why do you not believe that? And can this deity coexist with science and evolutionary theory? (my thoughts are, if there is such a deity, then yes, because science is not incompatible with religion, but).

I look forward to hearing your thoughts!

 
Hmmm... this brings up something controversial for me. In Nahua/Mexica theology there is a debate about Ometeotl. According to Miguel Leon-Portilla the ancient Nahua people had a divinity called 'the lord of duality', Ometeotl, who was also refereed to as Ometecuhtli and Omecihuatl (Lord and Lady of Duality), who was the ultimate creator god. However, his argument is kinda weak. Many of his references to Ometeotl are ambiguous and suspect. Nor is there any evidence that this 'god' was actually worshipped.

Another scholar, Richard Haly, suggested that the 'gods' name is wrong. It should be 'Omiteotl', which means 'Bone God'. Thus the name is an alternative for Mictlantecuhtli.

I think what happened that Leon-Portilla accidentally created Ometeotl. There used to be (and probably still is), a belief that society, and therefore religion, develop on linear paths. Animism was low, Polytheism slightly higher, perhaps Islam, followed by Christianity, followed by whatever specific brand of Christianity the author happened to be a member of. The logic goes something like this:
The Mexica have poetry and philosophy.
Filthy polytheists couldn't possible have poetry and philosophy.
Therefore the Mexica must have been secretly monotheist.
Of course I don't believe that Leon-Portilla literally thought this, only that it was assumed that 'higher' societies tend towards monotheism.

Personally I lean towards the second interpretation. Or else, I believe that Ometeotl might be a personification of the 'teotl'. Teotl is a force from which everything is made, including the gods. It was not sentient, or omni-anything, but with the coming of Christianity it may have been personified to help understand the Christian god. I go back and fourth between the two.

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Re: Omni-Deity?
« Reply #8 on: February 17, 2016, 01:10:14 am »
Quote from: HarpingHawke;186684
In other words, do you believe there is some kind of omni[suffix] deity who...keeps things running, so to speak? If so, to what extent do you think their influence goes? If not, why do you not believe that? And can this deity coexist with science and evolutionary theory? (my thoughts are, if there is such a deity, then yes, because science is not incompatible with religion, but).

 
I run in a similar direction to Kiya, probably with a Taoist influence. There's none, then one, then two, then everything follows. That one doesn't look recognizably like 'a deity' the way most people use the word, though.
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Re: Omni-Deity?
« Reply #9 on: February 17, 2016, 01:30:25 am »
Quote from: Darkhawk;186685
Keeps things running?

Nope.

Is things running?  Maybe.

 
I like a combo of "Keeps" and "Is."  My view of Deity is kind of this bigass All that is imminent yet transcendent.  

Makes pronouns a little tough, but referring to Deity as S/He/It is good shorthand.  Plus, try pronouncing it out loud.
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Re: Omni-Deity?
« Reply #10 on: February 17, 2016, 02:47:48 am »
Quote from: MadZealot;186815
Makes pronouns a little tough, but referring to Deity as S/He/It is good shorthand.  Plus, try pronouncing it out loud.
Any time you can insert sheeit into religious discourse is a good fucking time.

She/He/it/They. For when you're writing it and want an initialism.

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« Last Edit: February 17, 2016, 02:48:52 am by SunflowerP »
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Re: Omni-Deity?
« Reply #11 on: February 17, 2016, 10:15:29 am »
Quote from: MadZealot;186815
I like a combo of "Keeps" and "Is."  My view of Deity is kind of this bigass All that is imminent yet transcendent.  

 
I tend to feel that "keeps" in this context is too ... ugh.  Active?  Volitional?

At the That Which Is level I'm really not sure that's appropriate, personally.  I mean, I can see the argument made, but I feel that 'keeps' implies that the That Which Is is out there deciding every so often, 'Yeah, gravity's a good idea, I'll leave that in' rather than just... graviting.
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Re: Omni-Deity?
« Reply #12 on: February 17, 2016, 10:58:10 am »
Quote from: Darkhawk;186845
I tend to feel that "keeps" in this context is too ... ugh.  Active?  Volitional?

At the That Which Is level I'm really not sure that's appropriate, personally.  I mean, I can see the argument made, but I feel that 'keeps' implies that the That Which Is is out there deciding every so often, 'Yeah, gravity's a good idea, I'll leave that in' rather than just... graviting.
I'm now picturing a deity decluttering the universe KonMari style. "Does gravity bring me joy? Yes, I enjoy watching planets orbit suns. Does oxygen bring me joy? Does fission?"
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Re: Omni-Deity?
« Reply #13 on: February 17, 2016, 06:54:59 pm »
Quote from: Jack;186858
I'm now picturing a deity decluttering the universe KonMari style. "Does gravity bring me joy? Yes, I enjoy watching planets orbit suns. Does oxygen bring me joy? Does fission?"

 
"I'm tired of all these huge dinosaurs cluttering up the place, I'll just keep the little fluffy ones".

IIRC some strands of Hindu belief involve an ultimate being, I can't recall the name just now.

Also, there's the Greek philosophers' Unmoved Mover, which ... never really appealed to me.

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Re: Omni-Deity?
« Reply #14 on: February 17, 2016, 07:08:49 pm »
Quote from: Sefiru;186877
Also, there's the Greek philosophers' Unmoved Mover, which ... never really appealed to me.

I thought for sure you were going to say it didnt move you.
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