How do you contact a god or godess?

[ethelwulf]

*** MOD HAT ON ***

Ethelwulfe, TC rules clearly state that generalized attacks on any religion are unwelcome. You're very clearly crossing that line here. I recommend you have another look at the rules. This is your first formal warning; three warnings will lead to a temporary ban. --Chabas TC Staff

 
Please explain how I crossed the line. I did not say anything that has not been well recorded in history. I did not say anything negative about Muslims themselves only the goal Islam had, at least in the past, at its origin.

[ethelwulf]

The deities do not exist for your benefit, but (not unlike human-type people!) exist because they exist, and get to have their own agency and priorities. Usually when we say, 'the gods are not vending machines,' around here, it's in response to someone who expects the deities to give love or luck or material wealth on request... but the deities are also not vending machines of information/knowledge.

Sunflower

 
I am not asking the gods to be a vending machine and asking if the gods can help us understand our world better. It seems that they have revealed things in the past. Unfortunately some of this was lost because it was not written down and the oral traditions were lost. I was hoping that if knowledge was handed down in the past it might be again revealed.

[Jenett]

During your experiences did the gods indicate they are in contact with each other or have awareness of each other or the Christian god?

Given that people do rituals in which multiple deities are present via Drawing Down or other techniques at the same time, well - yes. I'd say they're pretty clear other deities exist. (They may or may not know them well, they may or may not have much to say to them. But exist? Yeah.)

As far as "How they feel about other deities" - honestly, that feels like the wrong question to me. It's a bit like, oh, being in high school or college, and asking your teachers to dish up gossip about their colleagues.

You may very well know that two teachers or professors are married, or that this one isn't fond of that one (or has some significant disagreement.) But generally, people are professional about it, and the ones you want to spend time with are the ones who keep suitable boundaries.

Again. The deity experiences I've had, and the ones I've heard about from other people have all been very specific to a particular person and situation. They have not been about general philosophy. They have not been about what the deity thinks about other deities (or even other people not currently in the room.) They have not been about history (or literature, or music, or art, except as relevant to that specific ritual or relationship).

It's going to consult a professional in a given field, and get their expertise, or having a conversation with your boss about what they want you to focus on for the next [period of time]. It's not social time with your friends, or wide ranging conversation at a party that lasts for hours.

(As I noted, this kind of deeper conversational work with a deity is generally very demanding: while the actual time spent in conversation may be a few minutes, it can take days or weeks to recover, integrate the experience, etc. It's not something people can do all the time and maintain a meaningful physical-world work life, personal relationships, etc. So there's a lot of "20 minutes here" and then another 20 minutes a month or two later, and then the time you try after that, you don't get anything, and the time after that, you get 5 minutes of very specific instruction.)

Naomi's already said pretty much what I would about people sharing UPG - really, an awful lot of what I got is private. I view it pretty much the way I view conversations with my doctor or another professional: I sometimes talk about pieces of it, if I think it'll be helpful to others, but I do so in a very context-dependent way, and mostly in situations where I have some control over who has access to the information or a clear idea of readership.

And again, probably 95% of what I've gotten from direct deity contact isn't relevant to other people, because it's about my relationship with and service for that deity. And the other 5% can mostly be summarised as "Gods. I believe they're real. I find the relationship meaningful. I have reasons."

[ethelwulf]

And again, probably 95% of what I've gotten from direct deity contact isn't relevant to other people, because it's about my relationship with and service for that deity. And the other 5% can mostly be summarised as "Gods. I believe they're real. I find the relationship meaningful. I have reasons."

 
I understand what you are saying and can appreciate the argument but at the same time would it be wrong to ask one of the gods about larger questions about religion. Have the gods ever said it is inappropriate to ask about more fundamental questions of religion. Myths in the past have been revealed at some point, can more about them be revealed again? Is there a reason why the gods would be opposed to this. I mean this as a serious question and not out of disrespect to the gods or anyone.

[HeartShadow]

I understand what you are saying and can appreciate the argument but at the same time would it be wrong to ask one of the gods about larger questions about religion. Have the gods ever said it is inappropriate to ask about more fundamental questions of religion. Myths in the past have been revealed at some point, can more about them be revealed again? Is there a reason why the gods would be opposed to this. I mean this as a serious question and not out of disrespect to the gods or anyone.

Questions about religion is different than physical history.  I do a lot with religious work and sharing what I can.  But that which focuses on the physical world is about the now and the future we build, not the past we come from.

[Jenett]

I understand what you are saying and can appreciate the argument but at the same time would it be wrong to ask one of the gods about larger questions about religion. Have the gods ever said it is inappropriate to ask about more fundamental questions of religion. Myths in the past have been revealed at some point, can more about them be revealed again? Is there a reason why the gods would be opposed to this. I mean this as a serious question and not out of disrespect to the gods or anyone.

 
Wrong, no.

Going to get you useful answers? I sincerely don't know. You get in a situation where you're talking to one, you can try it. (And if you get anywhere with it, I and I'm sure others would be interested in what happens.)

Personally, in those conversations, they have wanted to talk about different specific things, and I am not rude enough to change the subject on them, or to extend the conversation (if someone else is hosting the deity, this is, again, increasing a substantial effort for them in terms of recovery time.)

It's not impossible some setting might come up where it's relevant. But again, speaking from my experience, and those of other people I've talked to, it's just not what the conversations are about.

Everything I've gotten from M'Lady, who admittedly may be a bit of an outlier about this, is that she really doesn't *care* what religious form I use when I'm doing ritual: she cares that it matters to me, but the fact I use a variation on my tradition's methods is about as relevant to her as, oh, whether I take the train or a bus or a car to get from here to Boston to see friends and family are to them.

There are some implications (how tired I am on the other end), but mostly, she cares that I showed up, and that the method I use is not disruptive to her goals for me, but beyond that? Meh. Matters about as much as whether I put on a blue shirt or a green shirt or a black shirt for work in the morning.

I am, however, really clear that the religious forms I use are not the ones she had used for her historically, which is, y'know, something I already knew because the precise forms I use are under two decades old, based on stuff that's 60ish years old now.

In other words: not sure the 'tell us about ancient religions' is terribly relevant to the Gods either, though it's plausible to me that some deities might care rather more, or at least be more inclined to spend time talking about it.  On the third hand, people have been really curious about, oh, Delphi or the Eleusinian Mysteries for millenia, and the Gods have not been so terribly forthcoming there, either.

[ethelwulf]

Questions about religion is different than physical history.  I do a lot with religious work and sharing what I can.  But that which focuses on the physical world is about the now and the future we build, not the past we come from.

 
It is now and our future that I am interested in. My reference to the past in this case is about the fact that the gods revealed much about the religion in the past  that affect the people then. I would hope they would again reveal more about the religion again for us in out time. I would hope the god would want us to know more about them and our world. Maybe we have not asked the right questions or approached with the right interest. I only hope the will be willing to tell us more.

[ethelwulf]

*** MOD HAT ON ***

Ethelwulfe, TC rules clearly state that generalized attacks on any religion are unwelcome. You're very clearly crossing that line here. I recommend you have another look at the rules. This is your first formal warning; three warnings will lead to a temporary ban. --Chabas TC Staff

 
In response to the fact that you thought I was bashing a religion I thought these text were interesting.

 But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

 O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque

"there is no call on us (to keep faith) with these ignorant (Pagans)." but they tell a lie against Allah, and (well) they know it.

[Aster Breo]

It is now and our future that I am interested in. My reference to the past in this case is about the fact that the gods revealed much about the religion in the past  that affect the people then. I would hope they would again reveal more about the religion again for us in out time. I would hope the god would want us to know more about them and our world. Maybe we have not asked the right questions or approached with the right interest. I only hope the will be willing to tell us more.

What do you mean by "the religion"?  

I suspect that religion is a personal enough thing for most people that something one god revealed to one person would probably not be terribly relevant to other gods or other people.  

For example, several years ago, I participated in an oracular seidh ritual in which the seer "channeled" (I'm not sure that's the right word, but I can't think of another right now) a few gods, as well as several people who had passed.  When it was my turn, I asked to speak to Brighid.  The question I asked Her was about religion -- specifically, about an idea I had that was (and still is) pretty central to my personal understanding of Her, to my relationship with Her, and to my work for Her.  I wish I could remember all of the exact words She used (I remember bits and pieces), but the gist was that getting it historically or factually right was basically irrelevant and that She didn't really care how I interpreted that aspect of my religious beliefs, as long as it worked for me and didn't hurt anyone else.

(I know the preceding paragraph might not make much sense, but I don't want to go into more detail on a public forum.  My "conversations" with Brighid are private, unless She gives me a message to pass on to someone else.)

I'm sure this sort of thing various among the gods, just like interest in history various among people.  But in this particular case -- what I asked Brighid -- She  didn't seem to think factual accuracy mattered nearly as much as how I lived my beliefs.

I know that's not a very satisfactory answer for you.  You seem to be looking for something much more concrete.  But, honestly, I don't think that's how the gods usually think about this kind of thing.

Like Jenett said, you could try asking questions yourself, and see what kinds of answers you get.

[ethelwulf]

What do you mean by "the religion"?  

I suspect that religion is a personal enough thing for most people that something one god revealed to one person would probably not be terribly relevant to other gods or other people.  

.

 
I mean the religion to the god you communicating to is a part of. Since paganism is diverse the answers may be diverse.

[Sage]

I mean the religion to the god you communicating to is a part of. Since paganism is diverse the answers may be diverse.

 
I don't think gods are part of religions. Religions might spring up around them, but a bunch of different religions could approach the same deity in different ways. The Abrahamic faiths, for example, or the myriad diversity that exists in Hindu traditions, or how the Egyptian Aset really doesn't look much like her Roman counterpart Isis.

[RandallS]

In response to the fact that you thought I was bashing a religion I thought these text were interesting.

 

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[SunflowerP]

Please explain how I crossed the line. I did not say anything that has not been well recorded in history. I did not say anything negative about Muslims themselves only the goal Islam had, at least in the past, at its origin.

 
Well, except that the phrasing you chose did: 'the goal of the Muslims to eliminate all non-believers of the god of Abraham'.

Sunflower

[ethelwulf]

I don't think gods are part of religions. Religions might spring up around them, but a bunch of different religions could approach the same deity in different ways. The Abrahamic faiths, for example, or the myriad diversity that exists in Hindu traditions, or how the Egyptian Aset really doesn't look much like her Roman counterpart Isis.

 
I cannot disagree with you on your point. We as humans in a sense create the religion using our language and understanding. I still think the gods must know things about the world and it mysteries that they would want us to understand. Of course that is what I think and not them. Has anyone asked them to reveal more about the mysteries of our world? I would be nice to think they help us understand more about our relationship with the world.

[Lionrhod]

I cannot disagree with you on your point. We as humans in a sense create the religion using our language and understanding. I still think the gods must know things about the world and it mysteries that they would want us to understand. Of course that is what I think and not them. Has anyone asked them to reveal more about the mysteries of our world? I would be nice to think they help us understand more about our relationship with the world.

 
Excellent thread. Even if the question has been asked before.

I think many of us have asked them about the mysteries of our world. But sometimes the part of that mystery we want to know about is very personal (ex:"Why is my life the way it is right now?") and thus not really fit for public consumption.

Most often, I don't ask them questions, so much as think thoughts to myself, and sometimes they give me their input on that thought. As was said above, it's generally more useful and courteous to let them tell me what they want to rather than tell them what I want to know. Hey, I'd like to know the lotto numbers, but She's not sharing at the moment.

Sometimes it is more focused on our own interests and studies. For example, when I journeyed to find my Patron, I was approached by Arianrhod. Eventually the contents of this page http://www.lionrhod.com/poetry/for_arianrhod.html came out of it. Realize of course, that by the time I wrote the poem itself, I was heavily researching her myth. Some of this does agree with popular understanding of her, much of it (especially the notes at the bottom) does not, however many folks have agreed with me about what I learned, so *shrug*.

One of the things I was taught to do when working with a new deity/spirit/etc is "test" them to be sure you are in fact talking with someone and not just "making stuff up." When Arianrhod came to me she said "I am Arianrhod-Ariadne." At the time I'd never heard of any connection between the two. A few weeks later I was reading an astronomy book, and learned that the Corona Borealis (which I already knew was linked to Arianrhod) is also called Ariadne's Crown.

For myself, I generally hear either voices in my head, or more often I get an understanding of something they told me, even though I don't hear the words aloud. I have noticed that certain entities tend to speak into one "ear" (or stand on one side of me) and others the other side.