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Author Topic: How do gods get created?  (Read 4351 times)

YungMeatRabbit

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How do gods get created?
« on: May 27, 2016, 09:17:46 pm »
Hey everybody!

Assuming that deities exist, how did they get created?   Did they always exist or was there a point in time where they didn't exist?  Are they created by humans or the other way around?  What's the difference between a God and a spirit?  Finally, do you think that every single god/dess is an individual?  

Here's my take on it:

1.) Deities are thoughtforms/consciousnesses created by humanity by worship.  However, it also seems possible that the gods were originally just land spirits that became more powerful the more humans worshipped them.

2.) The deities were created by humanity, so they didn't exist before humans existed.

3.) Humans created them.

4.) I believe that there's a sort of energy/consciousness that exists and that animistic spirits arise when this energy is combined with natural features like trees, plants and other things like that.  I'm still figuring this one out.  While deities arise due to human belief, these spirits arise naturally.  However, they're made of the same stuff.

5.) All deities are mostly individuals.  However, since I view the deities as energy, I think that a lot of deities have energy of other deities in them.  For example, Odin, Woden and Wodan are all different beings, but they all started out as the same energy that different cultures interpreted in different ways, which created different beings.

But those are just my beliefs.  What do you think about deities?

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Re: How do gods get created?
« Reply #1 on: May 27, 2016, 10:04:51 pm »
Quote from: YungMeatRabbit;191972
Hey everybody!

Assuming that deities exist, how did they get created?   Did they always exist or was there a point in time where they didn't exist?  Are they created by humans or the other way around?  What's the difference between a God and a spirit?  Finally, do you think that every single god/dess is an individual?  


 
The answers to your questions will depend quite a lot on one's view of the concept of deity. I'm a rather soft polytheist, seeing the gods as metaphors for forces far greater than we can comprehend. So how might a new deity emerge? I mused on it here.
The first song sets the wheel in motion / The second is a song of love / The third song tells of Her devotion / The fourth cries joy from the sky above
The fifth song binds our fate to silence / and bids us live each moment well / The sixth unleashes rage and violence / The seventh song has truth to tell
The last song echoes through the ages / to ask its question all night long / And close the circle on these pages / These, the metamythos songs

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Re: How do gods get created?
« Reply #2 on: May 28, 2016, 09:58:36 am »
Quote from: YungMeatRabbit;191972
Hey everybody!

Assuming that deities exist, how did they get created?   Did they always exist or was there a point in time where they didn't exist?  Are they created by humans or the other way around?  What's the difference between a God and a spirit?  Finally, do you think that every single god/dess is an individual?  

Here's my take on it:

1.) Deities are thoughtforms/consciousnesses created by humanity by worship.  However, it also seems possible that the gods were originally just land spirits that became more powerful the more humans worshipped them.

2.) The deities were created by humanity, so they didn't exist before humans existed.

3.) Humans created them.

4.) I believe that there's a sort of energy/consciousness that exists and that animistic spirits arise when this energy is combined with natural features like trees, plants and other things like that.  I'm still figuring this one out.  While deities arise due to human belief, these spirits arise naturally.  However, they're made of the same stuff.

5.) All deities are mostly individuals.  However, since I view the deities as energy, I think that a lot of deities have energy of other deities in them.  For example, Odin, Woden and Wodan are all different beings, but they all started out as the same energy that different cultures interpreted in different ways, which created different beings.

But those are just my beliefs.  What do you think about deities?

Not gonna lie, I thought I was the only one who believed the gods were created by us. So here's what I believe:

- deities/gods/spirits (hereby shortened to deities) were created by us humans through worship

- as humans evolved and became more complex, so did our deities (think Venus of Willendorf vs Aphrodite)

- some of the deities have overlapping qualities and can be seen as "the equivalent to x," like Venus/Aphrodite or Artemis/Diana. I've noticed this mostly in the Greco-Roman pantheons, simply because that's what I know the most about. I think this is because humans, regardless of geographical location, have basic needs for whatever that deity fulfills, so as they pray for fertility*, a new fertility deity arises.

- all deities are distinct-ish from one another, but part of a singular greater Divine, like facets on a diamond. I say ish because of the similarities of some deities, which I see as either the same facet, or two adjoining facets.


*I keep using fertility as an example because it's one of the earliest known reasons for humans to pray.
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RecycledBenedict

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Re: How do gods get created?
« Reply #3 on: May 28, 2016, 11:01:45 am »
Quote from: YungMeatRabbit;191972
Assuming that deities exist, how did they get created?   Did they always exist or was there a point in time where they didn't exist?  (...) Deities are thoughtforms/consciousnesses created by humanity by worship.


Personally, I believe, that different sorts of deities have different modes of existence, and therefore emerged in different ways.

The view of your's quoted above, is similar to how I view some - but not all - deities. To this category I count: Celi, Ced, Ceridwen, Hu Gadarn, Niwalen, The Earth Mother, Beal and Dalon ap Landu.

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Re: How do gods get created?
« Reply #4 on: May 28, 2016, 11:14:31 am »
Quote from: FraterBenedict;191996
Personally, I believe, that different sorts of deities have different modes of existence, and therefore emerged in different ways.

The view of your's quoted above, is similar to how I view some - but not all - deities. To this category I count: Celi, Ced, Ceridwen, Hu Gadarn, Niwalen, The Earth Mother, Beal and Dalon ap Landu.


And I would probably add Aradia and Baphomet to that category, as well, though in the latter case with some qualifying remarks.

The idea of an Anima Mundi, in some way or another, has existed since the third century BCE (Stoics). An avatar thereof with a goat's head, caduceus, breast, and torch on head is an invention from the 1850s.

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Re: How do gods get created?
« Reply #5 on: May 28, 2016, 04:10:25 pm »
Quote from: FraterBenedict;191996
Personally, I believe, that different sorts of deities have different modes of existence, and therefore emerged in different ways.

The view of your's quoted above, is similar to how I view some - but not all - deities. To this category I count: Celi, Ced, Ceridwen, Hu Gadarn, Niwalen, The Earth Mother, Beal and Dalon ap Landu.
What makes these deities created by humans vs others? I've never heard most of the names before so I obviously don't know anything about them. And how do you believe any other deities came about?
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Re: How do gods get created?
« Reply #6 on: May 29, 2016, 04:49:56 pm »
Quote from: YungMeatRabbit;191972
Hey everybody!

Assuming that deities exist, how did they get created?   Did they always exist or was there a point in time where they didn't exist?  Are they created by humans or the other way around?  What's the difference between a God and a spirit?  Finally, do you think that every single god/dess is an individual?  

Here's my take on it:

1.) Deities are thoughtforms/consciousnesses created by humanity by worship.  However, it also seems possible that the gods were originally just land spirits that became more powerful the more humans worshipped them.

2.) The deities were created by humanity, so they didn't exist before humans existed.

3.) Humans created them.

4.) I believe that there's a sort of energy/consciousness that exists and that animistic spirits arise when this energy is combined with natural features like trees, plants and other things like that.  I'm still figuring this one out.  While deities arise due to human belief, these spirits arise naturally.  However, they're made of the same stuff.

5.) All deities are mostly individuals.  However, since I view the deities as energy, I think that a lot of deities have energy of other deities in them.  For example, Odin, Woden and Wodan are all different beings, but they all started out as the same energy that different cultures interpreted in different ways, which created different beings.

But those are just my beliefs.  What do you think about deities?

 
Well, if true then this would certainly explain the seemingly Schizophrenic behavior of the adherents of certain Paths...

I've not given much personal thought to this for some time. However, when last I did I was of the opinion that they were mostly a concoction to explain the otherwise inexplicably capricious nature of the Universe.

However, after my experiences over the last few years, especially the last 18 months, I now lean toward them having been created or born, and then humanity coming along after that.

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Re: How do gods get created?
« Reply #7 on: May 29, 2016, 06:08:04 pm »
Quote from: Skumring;192043
Well, if true then this would certainly explain the seemingly Schizophrenic behavior of the adherents of certain Paths...

 
I'm not entirely clear what you mean by this. Are you suggesting that the adherents of those paths are mentally ill?

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Re: How do gods get created?
« Reply #8 on: May 29, 2016, 08:09:59 pm »
Quote from: SunflowerP;192048
I'm not entirely clear what you mean by this. Are you suggesting that the adherents of those paths are mentally ill?

Sunflower

 
It was meant to be an ironic-humorous observation on the potential nature of, and subsequent interaction with that god's adherents should the method the OP posited actually be true, Sunflower. Though I can see upon re-reading how the tongue-in-cheek humor I intended might not come through. My apologies if I offended anyone.

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Re: How do gods get created?
« Reply #9 on: May 29, 2016, 09:18:56 pm »
Quote from: YungMeatRabbit;191972
Hey everybody!

Assuming that deities exist, how did they get created?   Did they always exist or was there a point in time where they didn't exist?  Are they created by humans or the other way around?  What's the difference between a God and a spirit?  Finally, do you think that every single god/dess is an individual?  

Here's my take on it:

1.) Deities are thoughtforms/consciousnesses created by humanity by worship.  However, it also seems possible that the gods were originally just land spirits that became more powerful the more humans worshipped them.

2.) The deities were created by humanity, so they didn't exist before humans existed.

3.) Humans created them.

4.) I believe that there's a sort of energy/consciousness that exists and that animistic spirits arise when this energy is combined with natural features like trees, plants and other things like that.  I'm still figuring this one out.  While deities arise due to human belief, these spirits arise naturally.  However, they're made of the same stuff.

5.) All deities are mostly individuals.  However, since I view the deities as energy, I think that a lot of deities have energy of other deities in them.  For example, Odin, Woden and Wodan are all different beings, but they all started out as the same energy that different cultures interpreted in different ways, which created different beings.

But those are just my beliefs.  What do you think about deities?

 
I completely disagree on points 1-3. I think that the gods existed well before humans, and completely independent of us, in the same way that natural forces like Gravity, or Magnetism, exist independent of us. If spirits can arise independent, why can't gods?

However, point 4 is awful close to one of my core spiritual beliefs. In Mesoamerican theology there is a force called Teotl, sort of 'divine energy', which can be either visible or invisible. This Teotl is part of everything, including gods and people. The concepts creates a link between everything that exists, because all is fundamentally made from the same stuff.

I also agree with your point 5, sort of, in that I think that gods are independent of each other. However, there is a caveat, in that gods wear many masks and have may names. So each god has several different identities each of which highlights a different aspect of their personality. They are also linked by Teotl, so share commonalities. But still different.

the_raven

Re: How do gods get created?
« Reply #10 on: May 29, 2016, 10:30:15 pm »
Quote from: YungMeatRabbit;191972
What do you think about deities?

 
It's an interesting topic. I was actually thinking about it a while back and tried a quasi-scientifical approach. So...

According to the Big Bang Theory, the universe appeared from an explosion created by colliding particles. This explosion was so powerful, that its shockwave set into motion an expansion of matter, which effectively resulted into the universe. Here a number of questions arise: 1) Where did the particles come from? 2) How big was the explosion exactly that its shockwave expanded the universe to its current, seemingly infinite size?
If we are to assume that some entity created the particles, where did the entity come from? For all we know, there's nothing pemanent, so this entity has to have an origin of some kind (and obviously, an ending point).
Alternatively, if we are to consider the Ballon Theory (pardon if its called otherwise), and presume that the universe will eventually expand - as result of the Big Bang - so far as to pop like a ballon, then another question arises: Where will everything 'go'?
Also, if we consider the Multiverse Theory, and presume that there are more parallel universes existing at the same time, another set of questions arises: 1) Can it be that the universes are in fact just balloons at some party? 2) Was the Big Bang just the moment somebody inflated a balloon? 3) Did all universes start with the Big Bang? 4) Are we all just microbes living inside one of those balloons? 5) Is that 'creator' entity in fact just a 'human' blowing up the balloons? And if so, are there more 'humans'? 6) Are they blowing up balloons as well at this same party, or at least, at their own parties?

If the answer to the above questions is 'yes', then imagine that there are no gods per say, that existence as we know it is just a circle (or a spiral) of us 'breathing life' into balloon-universes, where we ourselves live and inflate our own balloons to no end; that we ourselves - unknowingly - created existence for ourselves, and that by extension - we are the gods!

Crazy? Possibly, but what if its true?

anarchistbanjo

Re: How do gods get created?
« Reply #11 on: May 30, 2016, 10:40:09 am »
Quote from: YungMeatRabbit;191972
Hey everybody!

Assuming that deities exist, how did they get created?   Did they always exist or was there a point in time where they didn't exist?  Are they created by humans or the other way around?  What's the difference between a God and a spirit?  Finally, do you think that every single god/dess is an individual?  

(snip)
But those are just my beliefs.  What do you think about deities?

 
My take on this is that gods and goddesses were once humans just like us and they developed their "immortal physical bodies". Their conscious awareness continued to exist in etheric bodies after the death of their physical mortal bodies. The marital arts and almost all the world religions except Christianity, Islam and Judaism teach how to develop the soul and the immortal physical body!

RecycledBenedict

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Re: How do gods get created?
« Reply #12 on: May 30, 2016, 03:09:36 pm »
Quote from: missgraceless;192001
What makes these deities created by humans vs others? I've never heard most of the names before so I obviously don't know anything about them. And how do you believe any other deities came about?

 
As I wrote earlier: I believe that deities exist in different modes of existence, and that not all deities came into existance in the same way.

I believe that The One (To Hen) is beyond existence and non-existence. It is not wrong to say that The One does not exist, since its mode of existence, is not existence as we know it, and preceeds existence and non-existence. It would also be meaningful to say that The One is not non-existing.

I believe that some deities exist in the same way the number pi does exist, for example.

I believe that some deities exist as aspects or avatars of more general deites. The most obvious examples would be deities historically evolved out of other deities, like Thor from Thunraz, and the latter from (hypothetically) Perkwunos.

I believe that 'deity' sometimes is a way of speaking about natural phenomena: Earth, Sea, Atmosphere, Space, Sun, Moon, Weather, Fire... It is possible to demonstrate the  existence of this category of deities by observation.

When it comes to my particular list: Celi and Ced evolved out of Owen Morgan's interpretation of Edward Davies' interpretation of texts written by Iolo Morganwg. We are able to follow the development of these two deities during the 19th century.

Hu Gadarn and Ceridwen began as literary characters in the middle ages and the renaissance, but, again, were interpreted as deities by Edaward Davies.

The reverence for The Earth Mother, Beal and Dalon ap Landu began in 1963, by RDNA.

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Re: How do gods get created?
« Reply #13 on: May 30, 2016, 06:00:06 pm »
Quote from: FraterBenedict;192110
As I wrote earlier: I believe that deities exist in different modes of existence, and that not all deities came into existence in the same way.

 
This seems like the closest I could come to a blanket statement, myself.

As has been expressed by others elsewhere on this forum, I believe that the best way we have to describe gods in general is to call them "living stories." Some gods are created when human beings link up ideas to form a particularly powerful story; others existed beforehand and only emerge, fully formed, when the story begins to circulate.

I also agree with the OP that not all gods are discrete; some are facets on a shared jewel, so to speak. But gods that share a common point of origin can still become very different. I don't know if that means they grew and changed over time, or if it means we did.

One of my pet bits of metaphysical speculation is that at least some of the forces we know as gods were living beings of some kind in a previous universe, and when this universe was created, they left an imprint on its very fabric.

All of that said, while I can't answer the fundamental question posed here, I can provide an example that I have witnessed myself.

There is a recent game for smartphones and tablets called Fate/Grand Order--a fairly typical example of Japanese mobile games today in some ways, although it has quite a bit more writing and story than most. The main appeal, however, is that you spend your in-game currency "rolling" or "pulling" in a lottery called a gacha in order to have a chance of receiving characters, or Servants, to add to your fighting team. Some of these are better than others, stats-wise; others are simply really popular because of attractive designs or large roles in earlier installments of the franchise.

People really, really want to roll their favorite Servants in Fate/Grand Order. Some spend terrible amounts of money for it. Gambling can be a problem.

Gambling also creates a lot of fascinating superstitions. In the case of Fate/Grand Order, fandom has collectively agreed to anthropomorphize the gacha. They call it "the desire sensor" and claim that it is not actually random; instead, it is inclined to give players whatever Servant they least desire.

We have all developed rituals for dealing with this. The oldest and most common is to grab a nearby less-invested friend, hand your phone to them, and demand that they do the roll for you. Therefore, the idea goes, the desire sensor will be tricked. A more recent one involves performing pulls on a less expensive gacha until you get a good result that proves your luck is currently satisfactory, then pulling from the main, more expensive lottery before said luck runs out.

I have repeatedly asked my (largely non-religious) friends who play this game about their belief in the desire sensor and its rituals. Again and again, multiple people insist they believe in this mysterious, irrational power governing their luck in a video game.

Is this a new god? Quite possibly not; it could just be a new facet of an old one. But to me, it seems rather a godly force of some kind, and a just-born one at that. So maybe the answer is, "Gods are created--or appear to humans, at least--when there is a need for them."
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Re: How do gods get created?
« Reply #14 on: May 31, 2016, 09:15:07 am »
Quote from: anarchistbanjo;192100
My take on this is that gods and goddesses were once humans just like us

I agree on this about some - but not all - deities.

The Chinese goddess Mazu (ob. in the late 10th century CE) is an obvious example of this, and so is the Egyptian god Imhotep (ob. in the 2600s BCE).

Iron Age Scandinavians worshipped some departed rulers: A certain King Eric somewhere in 9th century Sweden, Olav Geirstadalv in 9th century Norway and a certain Guttorm somewhere in Denmark.

Some - but not all - modern Druids (I believe I read that opinion in some text by Graeme Talboys) hold this view about some of the Welsh and Irish deities.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2016, 09:17:06 am by RecycledBenedict »

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