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Author Topic: Hades as a patron god?  (Read 9599 times)

SunflowerP

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Re: Hades as a patron god?
« Reply #15 on: July 29, 2012, 07:01:14 pm »
Quote from: triple_entendre;66485
So this had be confused and a little concerned about if Hades could also be offended by contact with... death?

 
While Hades isn't exactly what's usually meant by "psychopomp", I'd say he'd fall into that category for the purposes of that discussion.

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Faemon

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Re: Hades as a patron god?
« Reply #16 on: July 29, 2012, 07:04:09 pm »
Quote from: SunflowerP;66559
While Hades isn't exactly what's usually meant by "psychopomp", I'd say he'd fall into that category for the purposes of that discussion.


Cool.

What makes psychopomps different from the non-death gods, though?
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Nyktipolos

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Re: Hades as a patron god?
« Reply #17 on: July 29, 2012, 07:27:49 pm »
Quote from: triple_entendre;66485
Interestingly, I followed a link on this thread about khernips, that said:

(quote removed)

So this had be confused and a little concerned about if Hades could also be offended by contact with... death? I mean, it's like a human with a peanut allergy working at a peanut shelling factory. It's not optimal, but I'm sure it happens. And... so... would the other gods shun Hades for that? Is there some difference between energy and entity? Or was this anti-death specific implementation of khernips just a superstition projected by (naturally) life-loving mortals of the time?

 
There are a number of differing opinions on miasma and ritual purity within Hellenic Reconstructionism, kind of similar to ritual purity within Kemetic religions (i.e. can you come before a shrine with menstruating? an argument that's been done to death, and will be done to death in the future.). You're right that it does sound a little redundant. I do think that khthonic deities have different.... requirements. I think though that would change depending on the god. What Haides is comfortable with, Persephone or Dionysos might not be, and visa versa. So, that would probably need to be negotiated if need be?

This is, however, if one is strictly working from within a strict Hellenismos world view. One can be ritually pure according to their tradition and thus worthy to go before god without the Greek concept of miasma.

To clarify, this is bits and pieces of information that I collected while I was a Hellenic Recon. I haven't identified nor practiced that religion (to any sort of letter) for years.
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Nyktipolos

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Re: Hades as a patron god?
« Reply #18 on: July 29, 2012, 07:36:44 pm »
Quote from: triple_entendre;66561
Cool.

What makes psychopomps different from the non-death gods, though?

 
Generally speaking, one of their jobs is to ferry the souls of the dead to the underworld/afterlife/etc. It's their ability to go from this world to the next that makes them stand apart from other gods, usually because crossing are fraught with a lot of danger, and well... it's deliberately MEANT to not be cross-able (although that happens anyways).

Haides technically does not ferry the souls into his domain, he just accepts them. (AFAIK, anyways) He can of course cross into our world and come back with ease (it is His domain, after all), but that's not his... primary job, I would say. That job would more to Hermes and Dionysos (although for the latter it would be more for his initiates, I'd say).

Overall I'd say it's that liminal quality to them, that not every god has.

Of course, YMMV and all that.
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Elani Temperance

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Re: Hades as a patron god?
« Reply #19 on: July 30, 2012, 02:14:58 pm »
Quote from: triple_entendre;66485
Interestingly, I followed a link on this thread about khernips, that said:

-quote removed-

So this had be confused and a little concerned about if Hades could also be offended by contact with... death? I mean, it's like a human with a peanut allergy working at a peanut shelling factory. It's not optimal, but I'm sure it happens. And... so... would the other gods shun Hades for that? Is there some difference between energy and entity? Or was this anti-death specific implementation of khernips just a superstition projected by (naturally) life-loving mortals of the time?

 
I wasn't going to reply to this thread because the OP wanted to know about Hades in a non-Hellenic fashion and I can't give advice on that and shall not offer my opinion. yet, triple_entendre linked to a post on my blog, so I shall try to clear up some of the confusion, from my Hellenic POV.

As a general rule in ancient Greece, very few people contacted Hades (in his Lord of Death epithets) because to know Hades would be to know death. At best, He was appeased at funeral rites. As far as I'm aware, only two minor cults performed rites of any kind to the Lord of the Dead. One was his Oracle of the Dead in the Thesprotia.

Ploutôn, however, an epithet of the Lord of Death, was considered a bringer of abundance from the earth and worshipped in Eleusis, Mytilene on Lesbos, Sparta, Ephesus, Carian Cnidus and a few others.

Rituals involving any Khthonic Gods was done without a ritual meal and was usually very solemn. Libations for the Khthonic Gods are called khoḗ and are given to the Khthonic Gods through a holókaustos. This means that the offerings are given in its entirety to the Gods and not just partly as is the practice for Olympic Gods. Historically, instead of offering through a heightened fire--usually on a pedestal--, as is done for the Olympic Gods, a pit was dug into the ground, often in the form of a grave, but it could be shallower. Libations were poured into this hole in its entirety. A holókaustos of animals were sacrificed through a fire which was started in the pit. The bones, offerings and ashes were left in the pit and buried. This fire-pit altar was called a bóthros.

Getting the attention of the Lord of Death was done by dropping yourself into the hole and hitting the ground with your fists, calling for the Lord of Death to hear you. Doing this was only done in the most dire of circumstances, I imagine only when a family member was dead or close to death. In the latter case, the sacrifice could have been used to try and keep Hades at bay.

As for miasma in regards to Khthonic Gods; katharmos (the act of ritually cleaning yourself in preparation of a meeting with the Gods) was practiced for all Gods, regardless if They were Olympic or Khthonic. It was--and is--a sign of piety. There are different forms of miasma; miasma caused by contact with the Underworld is but one of them, and was removed differently than miasma incurred due to daily life. Although miasma due to contact with the Underworld probably did not need to be removed when contacting the Lord of Death or other Underworld Deities, miasma would still have occurred and therefor would have needed to be removed before coming before Him.

I hope this helps.
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hpsmacy

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Re: Hades as a patron god?
« Reply #20 on: June 17, 2014, 02:51:11 am »
Quote from: Tana;61699

The owls are not connected to Hades as far as my knowledge goes, but to Athena.

 
Just for everyone's future reference in the conversation, because in many forums regarding Hades, and he is my Patron God as well and I have many connections in the Underworld, the Owl is not just connected to Athena. Specifically the Screech Owl is actually said to be the messenger between the Overworld and the Underworld and Hades and Persephone, as well as other deities in the Underworld such as Hecate and Nyx tend to use the Screech Owl as a sign or omen. So he very well could be reaching out. But just remember that Hades isn't the only Underworld Deity.  :)
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stephyjh

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Re: Hades as a patron god?
« Reply #21 on: June 17, 2014, 07:05:27 am »
Quote from: hpsmacy;150262
Just for everyone's future reference in the conversation, because in many forums regarding Hades, and he is my Patron God as well and I have many connections in the Underworld, the Owl is not just connected to Athena. Specifically the Screech Owl is actually said to be the messenger between the Overworld and the Underworld and Hades and Persephone, as well as other deities in the Underworld such as Hecate and Nyx tend to use the Screech Owl as a sign or omen. So he very well could be reaching out. But just remember that Hades isn't the only Underworld Deity.  :)
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