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Author Topic: Gods interacting with other gods from different pantheons  (Read 3618 times)

tothegoldenlady

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Gods interacting with other gods from different pantheons
« on: March 18, 2016, 09:23:41 pm »
Does anyone have any stories/experiences/UPG about Hellenic Gods interacting with other deities/beings outside their pantheon? Or even your own gods interacting with Hellenic ones? I hope I'm making sense.

RecycledBenedict

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Re: Gods interacting with other gods from different pantheons
« Reply #1 on: March 18, 2016, 09:37:47 pm »
Quote from: tothegoldenlady;188439
Does anyone have any stories/experiences/UPG about Hellenic Gods interacting with other deities/beings outside their pantheon? Or even your own gods interacting with Hellenic ones? I hope I'm making sense.


The ancient Greeks (and, when they had become hellenized, the Romans) continuously integrated deities they encountered into their pantheon.

If you take a look on the Orphic hymns, they include Anatolian deities.

If you read Diodorus of Sicily, Apollodorus - or even Manetho - the Egyptian deities are identified with Greek ones. The same happens to the West-Semitic deities in Philo's of Byblus description of Sanchuniathon's Syrian theogony.

The Thracian goddess Bendis became popular in Greece rather early.

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Re: Gods interacting with other gods from different pantheons
« Reply #2 on: March 18, 2016, 09:53:30 pm »
Quote from: tothegoldenlady;188439
Does anyone have any stories/experiences/UPG about Hellenic Gods interacting with other deities/beings outside their pantheon? Or even your own gods interacting with Hellenic ones? I hope I'm making sense.


Likewise, in the Helleno-Persio-Anatolian small kingdoms, the Persian god Vohu Manah was known as Omanos, Omanes or Zeus Omanes. The Persian goddess Anahita was, in a hellenized form, known as Anaïtis. Despite not being an indigenous Lydian goddess, she was especially popular in Lydia.

RecycledBenedict

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Re: Gods interacting with other gods from different pantheons
« Reply #3 on: March 18, 2016, 10:06:30 pm »
Quote from: tothegoldenlady;188439
Does anyone have any stories/experiences/UPG about Hellenic Gods interacting with other deities/beings outside their pantheon? Or even your own gods interacting with Hellenic ones? I hope I'm making sense.


The Anatolian moon-god (known from both Pontus, Pisidia, Phrygia and Lydia, and probably some other parts of Anatolia as well) was known to the Greek as Men Pharnakou, to the Romans as Mensis. He was sometimes mixed with Apollo, Hermes and Mithras.

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Re: Gods interacting with other gods from different pantheons
« Reply #4 on: March 19, 2016, 06:56:31 am »
Quote from: tothegoldenlady;188439
Does anyone have any stories/experiences/UPG about Hellenic Gods interacting with other deities/beings outside their pantheon? Or even your own gods interacting with Hellenic ones? I hope I'm making sense.


UPG-wise, I've had Isis and Hekate turning up together in meditation to talk to me. They were historically syncretised, so I didn't find it terribly surprising, but it was certainly memorable.

I also had Hekate, Artemis, Hermes, and Isis appear in meditation together as they handed me over to Sobek and Heru for mystery/initiation/priest work. I'm not going to go into that too deeply, but it was significant for me to be supported and blessed by them at that point in time.

I've also had Woden turn up in meditations with Hekate, though He didn't do much except hang around and watch, so.

I don't know if this is at all helpful for you in terms of answering your question, but yes, it happens, at least with me. I feel like it comes with the territory of being a polytheist; I don't really confine myself to a single pantheon. If a god wants to turn up, they turn up. It's cool.
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tothegoldenlady

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Re: Gods interacting with other gods from different pantheons
« Reply #5 on: March 19, 2016, 07:38:25 am »
Quote from: FraterBenedict;188442
Likewise, in the Helleno-Persio-Anatolian small kingdoms, the Persian god Vohu Manah was known as Omanos, Omanes or Zeus Omanes. The Persian goddess Anahita was, in a hellenized form, known as Anaïtis. Despite not being an indigenous Lydian goddess, she was especially popular in Lydia.

 
Vohu manah. I remember that name from somewhere. Doesn't he come from pre Zoroastrian religion, or is a part of that faith, or the Yezidis or something? I vaguely recall that. If he is, I never knew that. Thank you so much! This is very interesting to me. It reminds me of Endymeon and Men from somewhere. I remember the connection but not the faith though :whis: (Im speaking of Men here)

tothegoldenlady

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Re: Gods interacting with other gods from different pantheons
« Reply #6 on: March 19, 2016, 07:54:56 am »
Quote from: Sobekemiti;188461

I don't know if this is at all helpful for you in terms of answering your question, but yes, it happens, at least with me. I feel like it comes with the territory of being a polytheist; I don't really confine myself to a single pantheon. If a god wants to turn up, they turn up. It's cool.

 
Actually it is. One thing I have been wondering about is if there are any deities that get along really well in interactions that way or really really don't? As in, some that either feel comfortable with each others presence I guess and those that don't want to be in the same space as another. I know of it in members of the same pantheon, but what about of two different pantheons? Also, would you say this be because they are linked up to a role that they play in their own pantheon, more to personality, or a mixture of both?

And thank you for this. It makes me feel good knowing that the gods do that to others as well. Its their, erm, integration that tricks me.

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Re: Gods interacting with other gods from different pantheons
« Reply #7 on: March 19, 2016, 08:47:17 am »
Quote from: tothegoldenlady;188462
Vohu manah. I remember that name from somewhere. Doesn't he come from pre Zoroastrian religion, or is a part of that faith, or the Yezidis or something? I vaguely recall that. If he is, I never knew that. Thank you so much! This is very interesting to me. It reminds me of Endymeon and Men from somewhere. I remember the connection but not the faith though :whis: (Im speaking of Men here)


Vohu Manah is one of the Amesha Spenta in Zoroastrianism. And Men was popular all over Anatolia, before he was also included in the Greek pantheon, which grow all the time.

Another late included god was the mountain-god Orphos or Diorphos, who was born after Mithras masturbated on Gaia. He had something to do with fish.

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Re: Gods interacting with other gods from different pantheons
« Reply #8 on: March 19, 2016, 08:49:16 am »
Quote from: tothegoldenlady;188463
Actually it is. One thing I have been wondering about is if there are any deities that get along really well in interactions that way or really really don't? As in, some that either feel comfortable with each others presence I guess and those that don't want to be in the same space as another. I know of it in members of the same pantheon, but what about of two different pantheons? Also, would you say this be because they are linked up to a role that they play in their own pantheon, more to personality, or a mixture of both?

And thank you for this. It makes me feel good knowing that the gods do that to others as well. Its their, erm, integration that tricks me.

 
Well, I guess it's just like people? Some get on well, others don't? I'm only familiar with gods who work well together, based on historical syncretisms, like Isis and Hekate, and Artemis. The Greeks and Romans went around matching up foreign gods to their own gods all over the place, so there are a lot of gods who will get on well because of those historical associations.

I don't have a lot of experience with this apart from with Isis and Hekate and Artemis, but why it works, I don't know. They are historically connected, and IDK, their energy sort of works together in its own weird way? Though, I will say, Isis associated with Hekate is much more lunar than Isis on her own as an Egyptian god. It's not necessarily a different god entirely, but just a different energy, if that makes sense.

Isis and Hekate do share a lot of the same sort of attributes, though they do have their differences. Both are skilled magicians, they have associations with death and the stars, and both have been called Queen of Heaven. Isis is a shapeshifter, and has associations with snakes, as does Hekate. Hekate feels like a shapeshifter, as well, though I don't think there's anything historical about that. When they both appeared together for me, Hekate appeared in this billowing black robe, with long dark hair, and pale skin, and Isis emerged from those robes with a similar sort of look. They felt like a binary star system, if that even makes sense to you.

But the other times I've had interpantheonic appearances, they've been more personal to me, relating to the gods who matter to me most, rather than strictly from historical connections. Like, having Hekate, Artemis, Isis, and Hermes bless me and dress me before handing me to Sobek and Heru for initiation is so much more about my family of gods, and my connections to them, than to anything historical.

In terms of fiction, though, in this novel I'm currently writing, it's about Greek gods, as well as some fictional desert gods, and I know Hermes backs off considerably when he and the people he's leading get into the desert, because it's not his territory, and he talks about agreements with the desert gods to not interfere while he's on their land. It's less a historical disagreement, but perhaps an insight into how gods from different places might navigate those boundaries. Whether it's true in any meaningful way for other gods, or other people's experiences of gods, I don't know.
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tothegoldenlady

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Re: Gods interacting with other gods from different pantheons
« Reply #9 on: March 19, 2016, 07:54:36 pm »
Quote from: FraterBenedict;188465
Vohu Manah is one of the Amesha Spenta in Zoroastrianism. And Men was popular all over Anatolia, before he was also included in the Greek pantheon, which grow all the time.

Another late included god was the mountain-god Orphos or Diorphos, who was born after Mithras masturbated on Gaia. He had something to do with fish.

 
You have given me so much to research and take in. Thank you. By chance, are there any source materials on your posts above I might have? I only ask because google is not always forthcoming on resources and it would save me some hassle as I go about to read more of this. I live for research like this. Thank you again. :)

tothegoldenlady

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Re: Gods interacting with other gods from different pantheons
« Reply #10 on: March 20, 2016, 12:13:41 am »
Quote from: Sobekemiti;188466
Well, I guess it's just like people? Some get on well, others don't? I'm only familiar with gods who work well together, based on historical syncretisms, like Isis and Hekate, and Artemis. The Greeks and Romans went around matching up foreign gods to their own gods all over the place, so there are a lot of gods who will get on well because of those historical associations.

I don't have a lot of experience with this apart from with Isis and Hekate and Artemis, but why it works, I don't know. They are historically connected, and IDK, their energy sort of works together in its own weird way? Though, I will say, Isis associated with Hekate is much more lunar than Isis on her own as an Egyptian god. It's not necessarily a different god entirely, but just a different energy, if that makes sense.

Isis and Hekate do share a lot of the same sort of attributes, though they do have their differences. Both are skilled magicians, they have associations with death and the stars, and both have been called Queen of Heaven. Isis is a shapeshifter, and has associations with snakes, as does Hekate. Hekate feels like a shapeshifter, as well, though I don't think there's anything historical about that. When they both appeared together for me, Hekate appeared in this billowing black robe, with long dark hair, and pale skin, and Isis emerged from those robes with a similar sort of look. They felt like a binary star system, if that even makes sense to you.

But the other times I've had interpantheonic appearances, they've been more personal to me, relating to the gods who matter to me most, rather than strictly from historical connections. Like, having Hekate, Artemis, Isis, and Hermes bless me and dress me before handing me to Sobek and Heru for initiation is so much more about my family of gods, and my connections to them, than to anything historical.

In terms of fiction, though, in this novel I'm currently writing, it's about Greek gods, as well as some fictional desert gods, and I know Hermes backs off considerably when he and the people he's leading get into the desert, because it's not his territory, and he talks about agreements with the desert gods to not interfere while he's on their land. It's less a historical disagreement, but perhaps an insight into how gods from different places might navigate those boundaries. Whether it's true in any meaningful way for other gods, or other people's experiences of gods, I don't know.

 
Thank you :) Yeah, it is just like people. If there's one thing, nothings ever boring. It would make sense that certain deities or groups get along after so many centuries of identification, etc. Binary star system. I think I do get the jist of it but to be sure, like spiritual twins/ similar but divergent/separate? Do you ever get any frition from deities that share the "queen of heaven" roles? The title sounds very soverign so I wonder if it adds a dynamic to deitiy relationships...specifically with other queens of heaven. Like Isis and Hathor or Hecate or Hera or Ishtar, etc. But then again, I find it all interesting so...and I had read somewhere Isis and Aset were very different. But the same I am asking could be said of Hermes and Thouh,etc.

And I wish you great success on your book!

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Re: Gods interacting with other gods from different pantheons
« Reply #11 on: March 20, 2016, 12:54:52 am »
Quote from: tothegoldenlady;188516
Thank you :) Yeah, it is just like people. If there's one thing, nothings ever boring. It would make sense that certain deities or groups get along after so many centuries of identification, etc. Binary star system. I think I do get the jist of it but to be sure, like spiritual twins/ similar but divergent/separate? Do you ever get any frition from deities that share the "queen of heaven" roles? The title sounds very soverign so I wonder if it adds a dynamic to deitiy relationships...specifically with other queens of heaven. Like Isis and Hathor or Hecate or Hera or Ishtar, etc. But then again, I find it all interesting so...and I had read somewhere Isis and Aset were very different. But the same I am asking could be said of Hermes and Thouh,etc.

And I wish you great success on your book!


Well, I don't know if binary stars is a great metaphor for every one of these sort of relationships, but it seemed to work for Isis and Hekate. It's not necessarily that they are twins, it's more... related beings, separate beings, gravitating around each other, and sharing that bond together. They share a similar energy, a similar space, if that makes sense. Binary star isn't quite the best way to explain it, but it's the best metaphor I have for how that relationship is conceptualised in my mind.

As for Aset and Isis, well. That's an argument that goes back a long, long way in Kemetic circles, and will probably never be resolved. I have to say, that I was once in the Isis is not Aset camp, back when I was more reconstructionist than I am now, and held them to be more separate than the same. But over the years, I think it's more... Isis is different when She's Hellenic, and the more I explored Hellenic polytheism, the more I came to understand this. She's still Isis, still Aset, but it's a different role, and a different face. I will do lunar rites for Her in a Hellenic context, but not in a Kemetic one, because that's just weird. She's not really a lunar god in Egypt. I also use Isis and Aset almost interchangeably now, and really, the only difference is I'm more likely to stick with using Isis in a Hellenic context, but it's more flexible in a Kemetic one. I don't know why it's like this, just that it is, and it seems to work, so. I don't think I hold that Isis and Aset are completely the same god, but there is a difference in role, and energy, and perhaps personality, when She shifts from Egypt to Greece. It's intangible in many ways, and my experience is my own, but it's not that Isis is not Aset, it's that Egypt is not Greece. Or something. IDK. It's hard to explain, but I hope that makes sense.

I did have a grouping of beings under the Queen of Heaven, Star of the Sea epithet for a while. It included Hekate, Isis, Mary, and Quan Yin, and there's a whole weird similar sort of energy in those four as well, building on historical associations and whatnot. I never felt any friction between them; it was more of a complementary sort of energy. Not necessarily the same being with different names/faces, but more like, these gods seem to have a similar sort of energy that works well together. I found it an interesting group to work with. You could probably throw in other related gods as well, but that was the four that I felt drawn to the most under that banner. But there are other Queen of Heaven gods, and you can certainly associate gods under similar or the same sort of epithets.

Some use this method for a more softer sort of polytheism, where it's slightly more archetypal, or just different names for the same god, but it can also be used to find gods with similar roles or interests. Whether they play nicely together in the same space, well, that isn't guaranteed. Some argue that bringing two gods with the same job into the same space is more like competition. Why call two different plumbers to fix the same problem? Which may be why those gods don't always get on across pantheons, because it's a job thing.

But I've had good experiences with Djehuty/Thoth, Wepwawet, and Ganesha together, as They are all opening the way type gods, and I often experienced Their energy being like a group of friends hanging out together and having fun. I think there was enough of a connection to make their energy work, even though it doesn't, perhaps, seem to be there at first glance. So I think it really depends on the gods.

Take Zeus and Thunor and Set as storm/thunder gods. They are their own distinct thunder gods, but exploring their similarities and differences would be an interesting exercise. In particular, Zeus and Set would make for a very interesting contrast, I think.

Zeus is very much Ruler of the Gods, and thunder is His weapon. He has this crowning place in the Heavens, and all the other gods fall below Him, iirc.

Set is a god of boundaries and marginalised places and people, and brings storms and thunder to the land. Set is the strongest of the gods, and is the one travelling on the night boat to slaughter ap-p, because only He can, but He is not usually a beloved god, nor does He rule the rest of the pantheon.

But there's a similar sort of storm-bringer energy. And just as Zeus can protect the house, and this is why I call Him in my noumenia ritual, so you could call on Set to protect the boundaries of your house to ward off anything bad. They aren't the same god in many significant ways, but there's enough overlap to call them together, if that's what you wanted. Zeus for the household, Set for the boundaries. I think that would be intense, and powerful.

With Hermes and Djehuty/Thoth, it's ... complicated. They are quite different gods to me in terms of roles and personality. They are both tricksters in their own way, but to me, Djehuty is more ... intellectual, and quiet. Hermes is more gritty and earthy, a god of the people. They do share similar attributes in terms of communication and language, and perhaps magic, but Hermes has other attributes that Djehuty just doesn't have, like roads and journeys, and commerce/trade, and thieves. Hermes is a god of mortals. Djehuty is the vizier and scribe to the gods in Ra's court.

But they were historically connected as Hermes Trismegistus, and there's a long tradition of these two being associated, or even referred to as the same god. But I still think they are more different than they are similar, in my experience, but perhaps that is because I only experience them on their own, and not as Trismegistus. Someone else may have a different experience of these gods than I do, so don't take this as definitive in any meaningful way.
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Re: Gods interacting with other gods from different pantheons
« Reply #12 on: March 20, 2016, 02:11:51 pm »
Quote from: tothegoldenlady;188463
Actually it is. One thing I have been wondering about is if there are any deities that get along really well in interactions that way or really really don't? As in, some that either feel comfortable with each others presence I guess and those that don't want to be in the same space as another. I know of it in members of the same pantheon, but what about of two different pantheons? Also, would you say this be because they are linked up to a role that they play in their own pantheon, more to personality, or a mixture of both?

 
Well, yeah, of course there are; entities without bodies are people too and some people just don't get on.  Or don't get on at particular people's parties.  I've heard of incompatibilities between Apollo and Brighid, and between Manannan and Poseidon, and in both of those cases the issue as understood by the corporeal people reporting on it was "Having enough in common that there is the potential for large-scale conflict and having sufficiently different attitudes/approaches to the subject material to produce it."

I also wouldn't be surprised by someone who could deal with those Powers equably and doesn't get the conflict, mind; huge numbers of things depend on the angle one approaches from.  (Just like there are human beings I, for example, can't stand dealing with online and who are great people in person?  Different angle changes the relationship.)
as the water grinds the stone
we rise and fall
as our ashes turn to dust
we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

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Re: Gods interacting with other gods from different pantheons
« Reply #13 on: March 20, 2016, 02:29:48 pm »
Quote from: tothegoldenlady;188511
You have given me so much to research and take in. Thank you. By chance, are there any source materials on your posts above I might have? I only ask because google is not always forthcoming on resources and it would save me some hassle as I go about to read more of this. I live for research like this. Thank you again. :)

 
The Diorphos/Orpohs information is taken from De Fluviis (presumeably erroneously attributed to Plutarch). I believe that I read about Men in some thesis in archaeology, but I can't remember the title.

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Re: Gods interacting with other gods from different pantheons
« Reply #14 on: March 20, 2016, 04:10:05 pm »
Quote from: Sobekemiti;188519
Well, I don't know if binary stars is a great metaphor for every one of these sort of relationships, but it seemed to work for Isis and Hekate. It's not necessarily that they are twins, it's more... related beings, separate beings, gravitating around each other, and sharing that bond together. They share a similar energy, a similar space, if that makes sense. Binary star isn't quite the best way to explain it, but it's the best metaphor I have for how that relationship is conceptualised in my mind.

As for Aset and Isis, well. That's an argument that goes back a long, long way in Kemetic circles, and will probably never be resolved. I have to say, that I was once in the Isis is not Aset camp, back when I was more reconstructionist than I am now, and held them to be more separate than the same. But over the years, I think it's more... Isis is different when She's Hellenic, and the more I explored Hellenic polytheism, the more I came to understand this. She's still Isis, still Aset, but it's a different role, and a different face. I will do lunar rites for Her in a Hellenic context, but not in a Kemetic one, because that's just weird. She's not really a lunar god in Egypt. I also use Isis and Aset almost interchangeably now, and really, the only difference is I'm more likely to stick with using Isis in a Hellenic context, but it's more flexible in a Kemetic one. I don't know why it's like this, just that it is, and it seems to work, so. I don't think I hold that Isis and Aset are completely the same god, but there is a difference in role, and energy, and perhaps personality, when She shifts from Egypt to Greece. It's intangible in many ways, and my experience is my own, but it's not that Isis is not Aset, it's that Egypt is not Greece. Or something. IDK. It's hard to explain, but I hope that makes sense.

I did have a grouping of beings under the Queen of Heaven, Star of the Sea epithet for a while. It included Hekate, Isis, Mary, and Quan Yin, and there's a whole weird similar sort of energy in those four as well, building on historical associations and whatnot. I never felt any friction between them; it was more of a complementary sort of energy. Not necessarily the same being with different names/faces, but more like, these gods seem to have a similar sort of energy that works well together. I found it an interesting group to work with. You could probably throw in other related gods as well, but that was the four that I felt drawn to the most under that banner. But there are other Queen of Heaven gods, and you can certainly associate gods under similar or the same sort of epithets.

Some use this method for a more softer sort of polytheism, where it's slightly more archetypal, or just different names for the same god, but it can also be used to find gods with similar roles or interests. Whether they play nicely together in the same space, well, that isn't guaranteed. Some argue that bringing two gods with the same job into the same space is more like competition. Why call two different plumbers to fix the same problem? Which may be why those gods don't always get on across pantheons, because it's a job thing.

But I've had good experiences with Djehuty/Thoth, Wepwawet, and Ganesha together, as They are all opening the way type gods, and I often experienced Their energy being like a group of friends hanging out together and having fun. I think there was enough of a connection to make their energy work, even though it doesn't, perhaps, seem to be there at first glance. So I think it really depends on the gods.

Take Zeus and Thunor and Set as storm/thunder gods. They are their own distinct thunder gods, but exploring their similarities and differences would be an interesting exercise. In particular, Zeus and Set would make for a very interesting contrast, I think.

Zeus is very much Ruler of the Gods, and thunder is His weapon. He has this crowning place in the Heavens, and all the other gods fall below Him, iirc.

Set is a god of boundaries and marginalised places and people, and brings storms and thunder to the land. Set is the strongest of the gods, and is the one travelling on the night boat to slaughter ap-p, because only He can, but He is not usually a beloved god, nor does He rule the rest of the pantheon.

But there's a similar sort of storm-bringer energy. And just as Zeus can protect the house, and this is why I call Him in my noumenia ritual, so you could call on Set to protect the boundaries of your house to ward off anything bad. They aren't the same god in many significant ways, but there's enough overlap to call them together, if that's what you wanted. Zeus for the household, Set for the boundaries. I think that would be intense, and powerful.

With Hermes and Djehuty/Thoth, it's ... complicated. They are quite different gods to me in terms of roles and personality. They are both tricksters in their own way, but to me, Djehuty is more ... intellectual, and quiet. Hermes is more gritty and earthy, a god of the people. They do share similar attributes in terms of communication and language, and perhaps magic, but Hermes has other attributes that Djehuty just doesn't have, like roads and journeys, and commerce/trade, and thieves. Hermes is a god of mortals. Djehuty is the vizier and scribe to the gods in Ra's court.

But they were historically connected as Hermes Trismegistus, and there's a long tradition of these two being associated, or even referred to as the same god. But I still think they are more different than they are similar, in my experience, but perhaps that is because I only experience them on their own, and not as Trismegistus. Someone else may have a different experience of these gods than I do, so don't take this as definitive in any meaningful way.

 
Thank you, and everything you've said makes sense. But who is Thunor? It seems like I have heard of him before, but I forget where. Yes, comparing and contrasting Set and Zeus is interesting. Furthermore, I think the beloved factor links up with fear. For instance, some people shy away from Hera due to that. But I think they go on the myths rather than cultivate an actual relationship. Whereas others have deep relationships with, say, Kali, and the religious reality there frightens me, even though I don't deny her loving nature. So with Set, I think it is like with everyone...dependent on job function and personality. Some people cant get past the function, others clash with the personality...with any deity.

 Also, you mentioned Zeus? Do you have any relationship with him, as in interaction. I ask because I know that there is a difference between myth and practice, and I only know the myth. And I am thinking of creating another thread for anyone with experience with him. I might do that later today or tomorrow though.

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