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Author Topic: Gods don't care about individuals???  (Read 9121 times)

Redfaery

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Re: God's don't care about individuals???
« Reply #30 on: October 12, 2014, 01:06:50 am »
Quote from: dragonfaerie;161911
It's been my experience that the Gods aren't too busy to deal with individual concerns, just that they aren't Pez dispensers. When I've come needing real help, and not just being lazy or superficial, I've gotten it. When I've combined my magic and prayer with mundane action to further a goal, I've gotten it.

To me, the Gods are a lot like good parents. They'll help you when you need it, when it's something they know you can't quite pull off alone, but they aren't going to do all the work for you. And they want you to understand the personal power you already have in making things happen for yourself.

So at the risk of snark, I feel like folks who believe the Gods don't care about us personally are just asking for the wrong help the wrong way.

Karen

 
I'd also put in that not all gods will work with just everyone. Some are just picky! I especially feel this about the G-D of Abraham, who won't touch you if you aren't "his." Sure, he's great if you're one of his children, but if it turns out you don't really belong...no. He won't help you. I think it's also the case that some gods just don't get along with everyone, so it's a case of personalities clashing. I think sometimes the people who think gods don't care maybe aren't asking the right ones, either.
KARMA: You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Naomi J

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Re: God's don't care about individuals???
« Reply #31 on: October 12, 2014, 04:08:21 am »
Quote from: Redfaery;161961
I'd also put in that not all gods will work with just everyone. Some are just picky! I especially feel this about the G-D of Abraham, who won't touch you if you aren't "his." Sure, he's great if you're one of his children, but if it turns out you don't really belong...no. He won't help you. I think it's also the case that some gods just don't get along with everyone, so it's a case of personalities clashing. I think sometimes the people who think gods don't care maybe aren't asking the right ones, either.

 
Well, that's one experience of that deity. I know people who would say different, including hoodoo users who call on the Abrahamic god solely in magic.
"We're all stories, in the end. Make it a good one, eh?"
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Redfaery

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Re: God's don't care about individuals???
« Reply #32 on: October 12, 2014, 05:08:31 am »
Quote from: Naomi J;161965
Well, that's one experience of that deity. I know people who would say different, including hoodoo users who call on the Abrahamic god solely in magic.

 
You're right; I apologize for the generalization.

Though I do have my own pet theory that there is more than one G-D answering the prayers of Christians.
KARMA: You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Redfaery

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Re: God's don't care about individuals???
« Reply #33 on: October 12, 2014, 05:19:10 am »
Quote from: Redfaery;161961
I'd also put in that not all gods will work with just everyone. Some are just picky! I especially feel this about the G-D of Abraham, who won't touch you if you aren't "his." Sure, he's great if you're one of his children, but if it turns out you don't really belong...no. He won't help you. I think it's also the case that some gods just don't get along with everyone, so it's a case of personalities clashing. I think sometimes the people who think gods don't care maybe aren't asking the right ones, either.

 
I feel that as per Naomi's comment, I should clarify my statement, since it's too general and very misleading.

In my experience, the G-D of Abraham that most Christians pray to is still very tribal. Even though his followers are now an incredibly diverse lot doctrinally, politically, theologically, geographically, and demographically, there still seems to be a common thread in the experiences of Christians I know that G-D looks after His own.

Which brings me to what I meant by "if you are not his." I, personally, was never a child of G-D. I never belonged to him, as much as I wanted to. As much as I tried. I sincerely believe that I was marked out to be Buddhist from the day I was born. Karmic ties is a native Buddhist concept, and I believe I'm Buddhist in this life because I was Buddhist in past lives. Simply put: someone else called dibs. ;)
KARMA: You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Jainarayan

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Re: God's don't care about individuals???
« Reply #34 on: October 12, 2014, 09:59:26 am »
Quote from: Septima;159353
I can say, I have worked with a few Germanic deities, namely Freya and Thor and both of them took an active interest in my life as an individual. Do they care about communities? Absolutley. However individuals do matter to them too and in my experience they are more than willing to help out when a sincere need arises.

 
I am glad you said this, because I was also a little disconcerted to hear that the Norse deities don't take an interest in us. I don't mean coming from the o.p., but rahter that the idea is "out there". There's a lot of ridiculous stuff that floats around in the Hindu community too (I have a real humdinger for a footnote).* Why would we worship deities who don't care? It's more than a little bit like unrequited love.

Anyway, I believe "my" deities have always helped me. At the very rock bottom of financial need or vehicle repairs, someone, perhaps Lakshmi or  Ganesha have sent help from the unlikeliest places, totally unexpected. I told a story of Hanuman and/or Thor having helped me perform an impossible physical task.

So the short answer, as if I could ever give one :whis: is that I believe they do indeed get involved with me as an individual.


*Humdinger footnote story: I was in the Hindu temple one night making the rounds of deity shrines with a very lovely Indian lady. As we passed the shrine of Garuda, the eagle Vishnu rides, the lady said to me "Don't ever turn your back to Garuda! Vishnu will forgive you if you turn your back to him, but Garuda will never forgive you!" OK, I'd never deliberately turn my back to a deity as a show of disrespect, but when the two deities' shrines face each other, you have to have your back turned to one of them at some point. :rolleye::
śivāya vishnu rūpaya śivaḥ rūpaya vishnave
śivasya hridayam viṣṇur viṣṇoscha hridayam śivaḥ
Vishnu's appearance is Shiva; Shiva's appearance is Vishnu
Vishnu is the heart of Shiva; Shiva is the heart of Vishnu - Skandopanishad
 

Maponos

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Re: Gods don't care about individuals???
« Reply #35 on: October 12, 2014, 03:15:02 pm »
Quote from: Geroth;159311
I have recently heard quite a few people say that the gods do not care about the "petty needs" of individuals but rather the needs of communities. I have found this sentiment particularly within the Norse/Asatru community and even some Celtic practitioners as well. I found this quite interesting and at the same time a little disheartening, if true.

Do you find this to be true for you and the deities you honor?

 
Anyone who says that they know exactly how the gods feel and want should not be trusted.

As for the sentiment, I think it's somewhat accurate but gods clearly do pay attention to individuals as well.

You have to remember that gods/spirits are entities worshipped by entire cultures (millions of people) and that every person is not a hyper-individual. The needs of the group at large often (and should, for the most part) come before the needs of the individual.

dionysiandame

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Re: God's don't care about individuals???
« Reply #36 on: October 13, 2014, 08:45:29 am »
Quote from: Redfaery;161970

In my experience, the G-D of Abraham that most Christians pray to is still very tribal. Even though his followers are now an incredibly diverse lot doctrinally, politically, theologically, geographically, and demographically, there still seems to be a common thread in the experiences of Christians I know that G-D looks after His own.

I can jive with this idea especially if we bear in mind one of the theories out there that Elohim was originally a Caananite deity that eventually was "absorbed" into the Judaic monotheism that eventually led to Christianity.

[/Please note. The following word vomits are not based on any kind of scholarly research. These words are the product of experiences/feels/woo and other shit that doesn't matter a whole lot in the grandscheme of anything.]

Contrary to what many followers of the big three have told me, I do NOT think they are all worshipping the same god. Of the three, Allah tends to have the most nurturing kind of vibe. To me at least. His displeasure isn't sharp or vengeful, but the saddened disappointment one experiences from a father who loves you very much but won't save you from yourself.

Elohim comes across as a much more commanding kind of figure. I don't get the sense of "father" from him in any sense of the word. Very "my way or the highway" you are either of him or you are not. Once it was clear to both of us that we weren't going to work out that was it. I never "felt" his presence again.

One of my more offensive jokes: El managed to get an entire group of people to view him as the one TRUE god. That's probably the best PR available. He'd outlast his brothers and sisters by thousands of years.

As far as who the Christian god is? I don't know. I don't think it's Allah or Elohim. I think the prophet Yeshua may have tapped into some other deity from that region and, not having another way of describing who it was, called it what he knew.

[/end]

In the end , I think the gods will speak to, and work through, whoever is willing to listen. They are not confined to human perceptions of time, space, energy, or ability. To assume their ways somehow have to fit into our understanding of what is possible smacks of the utmost hubris to me.

I think this is how I ended up becoming a devotee of Lucifer despite not even thinking THAT would ever happen, how I realized I needed to start making space for Athena on my new altar, and how I ended up being plagued by Loki for 6-7 months.

Loki. 6-7 months. Did I mention I didn't ask for that shit AT ALL?

The moment a human being opens themselves to the realm of possibility, genuinely perceives that we and our understanding may not be the end all be all, things begin to happen. Gods begin to speak or spirits and strangers show up in your dreams or sync starts to occur more frquently, and reality becomes this strange kind of blur you're almost standing outside of.

I sometimes wonder if these people who say that gods don't care about individuals are so closed that they just aren't worth talking to. But that's my own judgment talking. And who really gives a shit about that?
« Last Edit: October 13, 2014, 08:45:57 am by dionysiandame »
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Ghost235

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Re: God's don't care about individuals???
« Reply #37 on: October 13, 2014, 09:36:13 am »
Quote from: Septima;159353


I can say, I have worked with a few Germanic deities, namely Freya and Thor and both of them took an active interest in my life as an individual. Do they care about communities? Absolutley. However individuals do matter to them too and in my experience they are more than willing to help out when a sincere need arises.

 
*Stuff what from books*

Actually, we do have evidence in the source material that the Germanic deities took a very active interest in the lives of at least some of their followers.  

For example, we have the story of Harald Wartooth where Odin was interested enough in Harold to beat him to death with his own club.  

Outside of the Norse group of deities the old stories are rife with deities coming down and doing stuff with mortals.  From Inanna and Gilgamesh to Zeus and his affairs with mortal women forward we have example after example of deities being intimately involved with mortals.

*Stuff what from my limited UPG-ish experience*

In my experience it seems to depend on the deity and the person.  For example, unless you are already doing pretty well for yourself Jupiter doesn't seem to be that interested.  I've found that for me, Freyja is responsive but only if I need a little bit of extra umph and especially if there is an ethical component.  Like, if I ask for a 2014 Lotus Elise then I'll get a whole lot of nothing.  However, if I need a little bit of extra willpower to not flirt with someone I shouldn't be flirting with that's given with relish.

wish4rain

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Re: Gods don't care about individuals???
« Reply #38 on: November 29, 2014, 10:05:01 pm »
Quote from: Geroth;159311
I have recently heard quite a few people say that the gods do not care about the "petty needs" of individuals but rather the needs of communities. I have found this sentiment particularly within the Norse/Asatru community and even some Celtic practitioners as well. I found this quite interesting and at the same time a little disheartening, if true.

Do you find this to be true for you and the deities you honor?
i feel that the gods care about the big picture.  Helping the individual is a way to help everyone makes and this is the same reason why curses end horribly for those who cast them--the gods don't like the ill intention and cast three times it back at you (hence the rule).  If the gods didn't care about you just as much as it cared about the community,  them nothing would ever get done.

Tl;dr: helping the individual is helping the community and I feel the gods do both.

Lokison

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Re: God's don't care about individuals???
« Reply #39 on: December 06, 2014, 09:12:30 am »
Quote from: Raine;159313
A broken tool is not a useful tool.

 
Sorry to just be jumping in here, but this stood out to me.

How can we determine what the PTB (Powers That Be) have in mind for us?  Yes a bottle is great for storing liquids, but it can also make music.  If broken, it makes a good weapon.  Our destiny has been shaped before hand, that the Gods/PTB do care about... this is why the Norse believe strongly that we as individuals do not matter.  But we can weave our own path, within reason, within the Weave.
My beliefs are my own.  I do not speak for anyone else.  It is my personal perspective.  
I am not the Way or the Truth.  No Man or Woman can reach their God/dess through me.


When people ask me, "What give you the right to suggest standards for others?",
my answer is, "If I don\'t, someone else, perhaps less qualified, will."
History has proven that qualification is based on acceptance. The end justifies the means. - LaVey

Lokison

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Re: Gods don't care about individuals???
« Reply #40 on: December 06, 2014, 09:27:41 am »
Quote from: Geroth;159311
I have found this sentiment particularly within the Norse/Asatru community and even some Celtic practitioners as well.

 
This is why: http://www.wyrdwords.vispa.com/heathenry/whatwyrd.html
My beliefs are my own.  I do not speak for anyone else.  It is my personal perspective.  
I am not the Way or the Truth.  No Man or Woman can reach their God/dess through me.


When people ask me, "What give you the right to suggest standards for others?",
my answer is, "If I don\'t, someone else, perhaps less qualified, will."
History has proven that qualification is based on acceptance. The end justifies the means. - LaVey

Lokison

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Re: God's don't care about individuals???
« Reply #41 on: December 06, 2014, 10:28:52 am »
Quote from: Cuthwin Crowe;159703
Of course, few people here would define themselves as LHP, and fewer are any form of Satanist, so take it as a view from the fringe.


Is this where we start having those interesting conversations?  "We all came from the Dark, and to the Dark we must all return." Which is what the Bible teaches us in Genesis 1:2  :)

Quote from: Cuthwin Crowe;159703
My god, and really any god spirit or force of the Left Hand Path, is by definition focused on the exaltation of the individual. Caring more for the community defeats the purpose.


Hmmm, are you ToS or Luciferian?  I can tell you arent LaVeyian, just trying to pinpoint which Satanic LHP you are walking.
My beliefs are my own.  I do not speak for anyone else.  It is my personal perspective.  
I am not the Way or the Truth.  No Man or Woman can reach their God/dess through me.


When people ask me, "What give you the right to suggest standards for others?",
my answer is, "If I don\'t, someone else, perhaps less qualified, will."
History has proven that qualification is based on acceptance. The end justifies the means. - LaVey

Valeria Crowe

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Re: God's don't care about individuals???
« Reply #42 on: December 06, 2014, 10:45:29 am »
Quote from: Lokison;166859
Is this where we start having those interesting conversations?  "We all came from the Dark, and to the Dark we must all return." Which is what the Bible teaches us in Genesis 1:2  :)



Hmmm, are you ToS or Luciferian?  I can tell you arent LaVeyian, just trying to pinpoint which Satanic LHP you are walking.

 
Neither. Independant theistic Satanist, with some polytheistic pagan influences here and there.

I believe in Satan as the god of this world, questioner of dogma and shaker up of crap, the first individualist, etc.

Not a member of her cabal, but Diane Vera's writings were some of the first theistic Satanisr works I've read, and are no doubt quite the influence.
"This is a sorrow-spider. Which end do you hold it by? TRICK QUESTION!"

Ghost of the Navigator

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Re: Gods don't care about individuals???
« Reply #43 on: December 06, 2014, 10:52:32 am »
Quote from: Lokison;166857
This is why: http://www.wyrdwords.vispa.com/heathenry/whatwyrd.html

 
Although I accept the function of Wyrd. That it is true every step we take affects every other step as decide our paths through our lives. Interacting with every one else to form and shape our lives. Their have been times in my where I went left when I should have went right and I cannot explain why. Do I believe this is divine intervention? No that wouldn't be it at all. That would imply that this is a rare occurrence. While don't think such action is common by any means I also don't think that its rare either. I think that the Gods are very connected with their people. I feel their people sometimes refuse to accept that a God/Goddess could be interested in their life. Maybe it unnerves them a bit.

 When thinking about the Gods caring individuals vs. the community what I feel is the Gods treat us similar to how a fish enthusiast would feel about his fish tank. Except ours is a self sustaining fish tank if we don't manage to break it. He cares about the whole tank but also tend to watch each fish as well. If a fish gets hurt he may restrict that fishes access within the tank.

 While I don't view us a pets to the Gods we are very similar we are like a project for them to watch and see how we can develop but they can't view the whole without recognizing the individuals. I believe if you feel they just cannot manage both acts at once that you underestimate them. We may not get their undivided attention, but they are very interested in us. Some might lead us to pain and others to pleasure. Some might lead us through anguish and despair so that we might find peace. Other might lead us away from what we need the most. I cannot begin to understand their motives. This just my opinion so taken it with the grain of salt that it was given.

Lokison

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Re: God's don't care about individuals???
« Reply #44 on: December 06, 2014, 11:04:29 am »
Quote from: Cuthwin Crowe;166861
Neither. Independent theistic Satanist, with some polytheistic pagan influences here and there.

I believe in Satan as the god of this world, questioner of dogma and shaker up of crap, the first individualist, etc.

 
Got any threads here that I can look over about that?  Or other sites?  Its been awhile since I was in any Satanic circles so not familiar with who you mentioned.  The CoS really burned me when I so haven't looked into their philosophy in awhile.
My beliefs are my own.  I do not speak for anyone else.  It is my personal perspective.  
I am not the Way or the Truth.  No Man or Woman can reach their God/dess through me.


When people ask me, "What give you the right to suggest standards for others?",
my answer is, "If I don\'t, someone else, perhaps less qualified, will."
History has proven that qualification is based on acceptance. The end justifies the means. - LaVey

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