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Author Topic: For those with a "god phone..."  (Read 1972 times)

Elizabeth

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For those with a "god phone..."
« on: April 26, 2015, 02:08:52 pm »
I don't have a god phone -- I don't believe I ever have, and I'm not sure that I ever will. I've pretty much come to terms with this. But, I still find myself wondering what 'godbothered' people tend to mean when they say...

    "God1 passed me onto God2 to work on such&such issue."

    "My patron wants me to work on such&such in my life right now."

    "God1 and God2 don't get along, and one wants me to stop working with the other."


I suppose I'm asking, how do YOU distinguish such things? This is all curiosity -- no ulterior motives whatsoever.

Does your deity tell you these things, or do you infer them? Do you hear a voice, see a vision, feel a push? How do you distinguish such things from sub-conscious motivations?

I appreciate all responses and look forward to reading through them!
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Re: For those with a "god phone..."
« Reply #1 on: April 26, 2015, 02:45:22 pm »
Quote from: Elizabeth;174318

I suppose I'm asking, how do YOU distinguish such things? This is all curiosity -- no ulterior motives whatsoever.


For other people talking about their experiences, I tend to look at it the way I would if they were talking about other people (especially other people I don't know.)

For example, if someone said "My friend Abacus and my friend Botany don't get along with each other, and Botany wants me to stop volunteering on this thing with Abacus" to me, I'd probably be saying things like "How do you feel about that?" and maybe "Why does Botany's opinion get more weight here?" and "Is there maybe something else going on in the situation?"

The fact it's deities possibly involved doesn't really change that, y'know?

It also depends a lot on how - and how well - I know the person I'm talking to. I'm going to be a lot more vocal with someone who's a good friend, wanting to understand how that particular relationship/set of choices matters to them (or if I think they're doing something that could end up with them hurt) than I am with someone I know only slightly. (In part because someone I know slightly, I know I probably don't know all the details.)

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Does your deity tell you these things, or do you infer them? Do you hear a voice, see a vision, feel a push? How do you distinguish such things from sub-conscious motivations?


Most of what I get is a strong sense of knowing, rather than hearing or seeing or somethign like that. However, I also sometimes have been in positions to get direct instructions via Drawing Down or aspecting work.

They're different from subconscious motivations because they - I dunno. They sound different in my head. Different soundtrack, basically. Also, usually, the deity stuff is just *there*, where my subconscious stuff has a definite sort of 'this idea is building up in my subconscious and being made' that is a progression, not a finished object.

I generally treat *all* info of that kind as something to be cross-checked if it is in any way different from what I'd be doing on my own. (A lot of M'Lady's desires for me are things like 'help give people information' which I was already inclined to be doing: I might make time/energy for it on a day when I was already busy because I get a nudge from her, but the basic instruction is not different or a problem, y'know?)

But when I've gotten instructions that were more off my usual habits, then I'll crosscheck them - meditation, divination, consulting other people, talking through the implications with a trusted friend. Depends on what it is, and what the other parts of the situation are, which one I pick.
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Hieronymus

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Re: For those with a "god phone..."
« Reply #2 on: April 26, 2015, 09:07:56 pm »
Quote from: Elizabeth;174318
I don't have a god phone -- I don't believe I ever have, and I'm not sure that I ever will. I've pretty much come to terms with this. But, I still find myself wondering what 'godbothered' people tend to mean when they say...

    "God1 passed me onto God2 to work on such&such issue."

    "My patron wants me to work on such&such in my life right now."

    "God1 and God2 don't get along, and one wants me to stop working with the other."


I suppose I'm asking, how do YOU distinguish such things? This is all curiosity -- no ulterior motives whatsoever.

Does your deity tell you these things, or do you infer them? Do you hear a voice, see a vision, feel a push? How do you distinguish such things from sub-conscious motivations?

I appreciate all responses and look forward to reading through them!

 
I wondered if I was missing something too. I don't get the "ye old plot hammer" falling on my head kinda thing. In fact, I have never been able to point to a particular God/Goddess, god/goddess, deity, demigod/demigoddess etc, contacting me. I've never felt things that would lend me to believe I had Loki on the line. I know some people feel that, and I never would presume to know what another person's divine experiences were.
I have researched that certain signs could lend to certain gods/goddesses. I would think if you're more receptive to that kind of thing, research the signs that your particular pantheon may show, then you would tend to pick up on those. Alas, I'm oblivious. I truly envy people that are in tune to that.
My disclaimer: I'm highly skeptical. So you should take this with a grain of salt. But all of this and my skepticism, actually led me to a pantheist path. It's new to me and I'm still ironing out all the quirks as it pertains to my belief system, but it feels right for me.
Anyway, it's all individual and I truly wish you the best of luck with this,. May you have more success than I have in this endeavor :)
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veggiewolf

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Re: For those with a "god phone..."
« Reply #3 on: April 27, 2015, 11:48:13 am »
Quote from: Elizabeth;174318
I don't have a god phone -- I don't believe I ever have, and I'm not sure that I ever will. I've pretty much come to terms with this. But, I still find myself wondering what 'godbothered' people tend to mean when they say...

    "God1 passed me onto God2 to work on such&such issue."

    "My patron wants me to work on such&such in my life right now."

    "God1 and God2 don't get along, and one wants me to stop working with the other."


I suppose I'm asking, how do YOU distinguish such things? This is all curiosity -- no ulterior motives whatsoever.

Does your deity tell you these things, or do you infer them? Do you hear a voice, see a vision, feel a push? How do you distinguish such things from sub-conscious motivations?

I appreciate all responses and look forward to reading through them!

 
For me, it varies.  Sometimes, there is a voice that doesn't match the pattern of my typical inner monologue - intonation is different, timbre is different, etc.  Sometimes, it is a strong feeling one way or another about a topic.  Sometimes, I have a dream about whatever it is.

As for distinguishing, I don't.  I take a look at the substance of the voice, the feeling, or the dream, and then I choose whether to act on it or not.  It's not possible for me to prove that these things come from my gods, so I don't try.

If I were to say any of the phrases you gave as examples, they'd be coming from the fact that, based on the the voice(s) or the feeling or the dream, I believe the god in question wants me to do X.  Whether I choose to act on it is something else again.  Of course, I am someone who believes that my gods require me to make active choices.

(As an aside, I hate that there aren't really good words for what I experience - it can be difficult to describe, and it is frustrating.  I also tend to dislike the terms "godphone" and "godbothered", but that's from a standpoint of not having better terminology.  It has nothing to do with the people who use either term.)
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Elizabeth

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Re: For those with a "god phone..."
« Reply #4 on: April 27, 2015, 05:13:35 pm »
Quote from: Jenett;174319
Most of what I get is a strong sense of knowing, rather than hearing or seeing or somethign like that. However, I also sometimes have been in positions to get direct instructions via Drawing Down or aspecting work.

They're different from subconscious motivations because they - I dunno. They sound different in my head. Different soundtrack, basically. Also, usually, the deity stuff is just *there*, where my subconscious stuff has a definite sort of 'this idea is building up in my subconscious and being made' that is a progression, not a finished object.

I generally treat *all* info of that kind as something to be cross-checked if it is in any way different from what I'd be doing on my own. (A lot of M'Lady's desires for me are things like 'help give people information' which I was already inclined to be doing: I might make time/energy for it on a day when I was already busy because I get a nudge from her, but the basic instruction is not different or a problem, y'know?)

But when I've gotten instructions that were more off my usual habits, then I'll crosscheck them - meditation, divination, consulting other people, talking through the implications with a trusted friend. Depends on what it is, and what the other parts of the situation are, which one I pick.


Thank you, Jenett — a very helpful description of the "process" for me to chew on.

 
Quote from: Hieronymus;174339
I wondered if I was missing something too. I don't get the "ye old plot hammer" falling on my head kinda thing. In fact, I have never been able to point to a particular God/Goddess, god/goddess, deity, demigod/demigoddess etc, contacting me. I've never felt things that would lend me to believe I had Loki on the line. I know some people feel that, and I never would presume to know what another person's divine experiences were.
I have researched that certain signs could lend to certain gods/goddesses. I would think if you're more receptive to that kind of thing, research the signs that your particular pantheon may show, then you would tend to pick up on those. Alas, I'm oblivious. I truly envy people that are in tune to that.
My disclaimer: I'm highly skeptical. So you should take this with a grain of salt. But all of this and my skepticism, actually led me to a pantheist path. It's new to me and I'm still ironing out all the quirks as it pertains to my belief system, but it feels right for me.
Anyway, it's all individual and I truly wish you the best of luck with this,. May you have more success than I have in this endeavor :)


As others have mentioned on these forums in the past, there seems to be a higher number of "godbothered" individuals here, for obvious reasons. That's what really got me thinking on this, as I've never had a sudden moment of realization or connection or whatever anyone wants to call it myself.

I find myself leaning towards the Heathen worldview — it seems there are many who don't have personal relationships with the gods, per se, but they maybe have a favorite or one they took a particular liking to for one reason or another. But there isn't that push for an obvious relationship. This is speaking in generalities, of course, as there are many Heathens who DO have personal relationships with the gods.
 
Quote from: veggiewolf;174349
For me, it varies.  Sometimes, there is a voice that doesn't match the pattern of my typical inner monologue - intonation is different, timbre is different, etc.  Sometimes, it is a strong feeling one way or another about a topic.  Sometimes, I have a dream about whatever it is.

As for distinguishing, I don't.  I take a look at the substance of the voice, the feeling, or the dream, and then I choose whether to act on it or not.  It's not possible for me to prove that these things come from my gods, so I don't try.

If I were to say any of the phrases you gave as examples, they'd be coming from the fact that, based on the the voice(s) or the feeling or the dream, I believe the god in question wants me to do X.  Whether I choose to act on it is something else again.  Of course, I am someone who believes that my gods require me to make active choices.

(As an aside, I hate that there aren't really good words for what I experience - it can be difficult to describe, and it is frustrating.  I also tend to dislike the terms "godphone" and "godbothered", but that's from a standpoint of not having better terminology.  It has nothing to do with the people who use either term.)


Jenett made a similar statement — the voice or pattern of thought or what have you has a different sound/feel than one you'd have on your own. Interesting.

I agree with you regarding the terminology — I hesitated in using them, but unfortunately, they're there for lack of better terms.
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Re: For those with a "god phone..."
« Reply #5 on: April 27, 2015, 06:37:52 pm »
Quote from: Elizabeth;174363
I agree with you regarding the terminology — I hesitated in using them, but unfortunately, they're there for lack of better terms.

 
I tend to prefer 'people who experience direct interaction' - which could be once in a while or even once in a lifetime, or quite frequent, and doesn't carry strong implications of what the interaction is like. (That's why I despise 'godphone' - it so strongly suggests 'hearing deities speak in clear words/sentences', which IME is quite rare even among those who regularly experience direct interaction. 'Godbothered' annoys me somewhat less, though I'm not keen on the way it suggests that a deity is doing it constantly and/or that it's a burden/bother to the person.)

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Faemon

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Re: For those with a "god phone..."
« Reply #6 on: April 27, 2015, 09:43:11 pm »
Quote from: Elizabeth;174318
How do you distinguish such things from sub-conscious motivations?


I don't. When it comes to an idea, suggestion, or instruction that makes an effect on the world through me, there's got to be a point that I own it. Subconscious becoming conscious becoming effective, or divine becoming mundane, ends up in the same place.

Whether it's divine or subconscious, it has to align with my own justifications. I am not allowed to say, "The gods made me do it." The gods suggested, and I considered/agreed. Or I had a subconscious impulse, that I considered/agreed. It's the same.

What I gather is that the subconscious is considered selfish whereas the divine has greater perspective, but I credit and mistrust their messages equally. The message should stand on its own merits.

When I have no justifications, but I roll with it anyway, then I've got to own at least being crazy or superstitious or religious-with-negative-connotations-ly deluded...and I just hope it doesn't hurt anybody else too badly on the way out..

Quote
Does your deity tell you these things, or do you infer them? Do you hear a voice, see a vision, feel a push?

 
For me it began with sensing qualities. As a child, I'd be taken to one church and feel bored, then I'd be taken to another church and feel as if somebody was going to stab me. Those emotional responses were mine, but between those and the physical circumstances were qualities. Within the former, there would be meaning to everything done, I'm sure, and I'd even been taught what they were, but it just didn't reach me on a level of...er, meaning. With the latter, nobody was actually threatening me, everybody in that building was civil and nice, and the building was just a building. But there was a quality in the air that I categorized as divine presence. I could intellectually understand omniscience, but these qualities are what I categorize as godphone phenomena.

So, it was an experience that I distinguished from my own emotional reactions, because...that's what it felt like. I was bored/afraid because of something; but I could not attribute it to anything physical that was happening. Divine presence was the conclusion I reached for the latter, divine absence for the former, and divine at all because...well, these particular experiences tended to be in churches or while I'd be reading the Bible. Or...randomly...but for the most part, the tended to be that I mentioned.

The qualities of that in-between were what I paid attention to. If quality, as I have been using the word, is useless as a word, I know. Like, I've basically been telling you: "having a god phone feels like having a god phone". That's why I would make associations, too, for example the presence in that second church, I could associate with the color gold even though there were no light waves of that frequency bouncing off that quality. It had, to me, the quality of the color gold.

So, it's a sort of translation-negotiation from the abstract. If I could make associations such as the color gold, the location of a church, the size of large, the shape of cloud...then I could identify those qualities when they were present, for example when I'd read the Bible. Same qualities came into my experience, as not-me but not-else: a thing between myself and the physical circumstances. But because of those associations, that's why I named that presence Yahweh.

Then the quality identification process applies to a working relationship: if "gold and cloudy" then too "name or identityfication", "attention", "sentience", "autonomy", "communication", "instruction", "insistence", "event", "loudness". The qualities are those concepts.

When I say that I "make" associations, however, it's not something I can own. I could try to manipulate my own experience, but that effort evokes yet another quality of misalignment or disharmony, and it basically just feels incorrect.

I went through a similar process meeting Manannan mac Lir, for instance, and it just feels wrong to try to rename him Ea or El and basically shoehorn that into a mythology where, actually, He'd fit. To just read and talk about it, He would fit. That just doesn't feel right.

For another example, I wanted to put a name to this no-name, no-mythology presence quality that had arisen and kept bugging me. Associations: the ocean, freedom, injury, masculinity, swords, romantic archaism...I imagined him a pirate and wanted to name him Captain Kelp. At this, the quality remained the same, but became dynamic in a way that I can only translate as a loud and sudden NO. I have no idea why he was so averse to kelp. I thought it would be so clever and cute, and was kind of put off by the strong and sudden rejection, because I wanted a name to put to this thing, and he didn't have a name to give other than "that quality with these associations (that is not that other quality)", so it shouldn't have made any difference. But it does make a difference, because it just feels rude if I refer to him as Captain Kelp anyway.

If this is a product of personal insecurity that I externalize and call "godphone", then...that's all just really weird.

It's a negotiation, a translation, and it can happen must faster than I described, such that it does come off as an immediate raw experience...of matterless form, invisible light, intangible contact, inaudible language complete with prosedy and impediments that I could only recognize from a language that I actually speak as in with fleshy mouth flaps and alphabetic symbols...sometimes, even witnessing the form of a hairless bipedal ape. Although, like the qualities I name Yahweh, the qualities I name Manannan mac Lir and the qualities I name Carabosse are clouds too to me.

If I think about it none of this is supposed to be--Yahweh is supposed to be omnipresent and loving (not threatening to soul-stab an eleven-year-old), Manannan should not be amorphous, Loki is supposed to be, and Carabosse is not part of an established religious pantheon--she's from a fairy tale, she's not real--but since it happens then it's there to be considered, explored, and...rolled-with. If someone has the same UPG as I do, that's interesting; is someone has different UPG than I do, that's interesting!

Anyway, to me all this does happen on some interface of my experience of my default physical world, because there are also qualities that indicate to me that this experience is not one shared by random people around me, no matter how clear or vivid an interface it seems to be.

It also happens during meditations, in dreams, in dreamlike meditations, in meditative dreams, and there is that same quality to cue me in on how separate it is from the thing.

Other times, still, the quality remains a quality. It's like a thought without a speaker or a form. What remains to distinguish it as godphone phenomena is the dissociation, which I think can be healthy, even if it is a product of my subconscious, because distance makes the thought easier to examine (and, granted, to be irresponsible for.) If it's divine, it should have no more or less merit than a product of the subconscious.

Maybe there's some context-perspective-evaluation process that shifts depending on where we think it comes from, but the raw experience at least I did my best to describe above.


And then there's that even though I technically have a phone, I don't have everybody's numbers and I don't need it. I've had spiritual epiphanies from The Lady of Shalott and The Lady of Lyn Y Fan Fach just from reading their stories and having those non-quality (well, not "Quality" like I've been using the word) ideas conveyed through those stories. They've never come by for altar tea. They've never thewapped me with theophany.
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Faemon

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Re: For those with a "god phone..."
« Reply #7 on: April 27, 2015, 10:16:18 pm »
Quote from: Faemon;174378
I imagined him a pirate

To clarify a few points: the quality of piracy, for example, is in the default world very conditional. There would need to have been some conserved quality of something proprietary to create, for example, DVD piracy. There would be laws for which these people would try to be out of, meaning governments, and all that.

The qualities, on the other hand...well, a quality that I call "romantic archaism" plus a quality of "oceanic associations" equal, to my mind, "pirate". The quality-complex with which I interact with does not generate objection to this, but that doesn't mean that what I think he is...is necessarily what he is.

That's why I say "I imagine (that he is)" one.

He's not a ghost, by the way, he's a fairy. While piracy is a quality that I learn from reading about the Age of Sail in this world, he was never human and never temporal. How does that work? I don't know, I just roll with it because I've already thought too much about this process! I'll just ask him what he's here for, as if he's real!

That pronouncement of mine, "He's not a ghost, he's a fairy" and such like it, comes at the end of the process that I described in my previous post. "Ghost" and "fairy" carry different qualities to me, even though I've read stories of people who wandered into fairyland and met with deceased loved ones, so they should logically be the same entity.

When I say, "he's never been human and never been temporal", too, it...is actually difficult to explain. He didn't tell me, but he told me. By appearing, he radiated qualities that I picked up on. And yet, that is not the only "way" to convey messages to me, even though the medium of "quality between" is...it.

If I try to systemize my experiences, then I would say that the quality can shift so that he could have communicated to me, "Human? I've never been. What is this 'time' you speak of?" (How can he communicate "never" and not know what time is? That's the fault of the translator.)

But instead these features were evident. Like, without the creepy visual, it's as if these things have mouths where pores should be, and each pore is always saying their name. Titles and nicknames, too. As long as the quality holds, they are identified, but they can shift to convey something else they've got to say.

Or maybe that's just for my benefit, because I'm corporeal so I'm too used to clear divisions between being, thinking, and doing/saying.

Quote
Although, like the qualities I name Yahweh, the qualities I name Manannan mac Lir and the qualities I name Carabosse are clouds too to me.

Just like with naming not-Kelp, I can't just decide that the Yahweh cloud is blue and not gold...even though the light waves don't literally exist.

The quality of blue or the quality of gold are what stick, but I can't just stick that to anyone, even though I can call something that can't possibly be a pirate...a pirate.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2015, 10:22:28 pm by Faemon »
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Re: For those with a "god phone..."
« Reply #8 on: April 29, 2015, 06:45:31 am »
Quote from: SunflowerP;174367
I tend to prefer 'people who experience direct interaction' - which could be once in a while or even once in a lifetime, or quite frequent, and doesn't carry strong implications of what the interaction is like. (That's why I despise 'godphone' - it so strongly suggests 'hearing deities speak in clear words/sentences', which IME is quite rare even among those who regularly experience direct interaction. 'Godbothered' annoys me somewhat less, though I'm not keen on the way it suggests that a deity is doing it constantly and/or that it's a burden/bother to the person.)

Sunflower

 
Yes, the whole concept of it doesn't work for me, because I really don't think it works like a *phone*.

For one thing, I don't hear the same (or in the same way) from different deities. So it's not like they all speak through one channel.

With one of my deities, she speaks a lot. Mostly when I'm doing focused journeying, but also outside of that a bit. With her, I 'hear' a voice, but internally.

But with all the other deities I honour, I get flashes of images, or occasional feelings if I'm in the right places - or, most likely, nothing at all. I think 'nothing at all' (except what you can gauge from divination etc) is a perfectly good thing to hear from some deities too.
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Re: For those with a "god phone..."
« Reply #9 on: April 29, 2015, 12:59:49 pm »
Quote from: Naomi J;174407
Yes, the whole concept of it doesn't work for me, because I really don't think it works like a *phone*.

For one thing, I don't hear the same (or in the same way) from different deities. So it's not like they all speak through one channel.

With one of my deities, she speaks a lot. Mostly when I'm doing focused journeying, but also outside of that a bit. With her, I 'hear' a voice, but internally.

But with all the other deities I honour, I get flashes of images, or occasional feelings if I'm in the right places - or, most likely, nothing at all. I think 'nothing at all' (except what you can gauge from divination etc) is a perfectly good thing to hear from some deities too.

I find the term "godphone" a bit trivializing, honestly. Which makes sense, since from what I understand it started out as an insult.

But sometimes my connection with my gods *does* work a lot like a phone. I sit down, clear my mind and...dial them up, I guess you could say. And just like a phonecall, a lot of times the answer is "Hello, you've reached the voice mail box of Prithivi. I'm unable to come to the phone right now. Please leave a message after the tone. Thanks!"
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Re: For those with a "god phone..."
« Reply #10 on: April 29, 2015, 01:10:45 pm »
Quote from: Naomi J;174407
For one thing, I don't hear the same (or in the same way) from different deities. So it's not like they all speak through one channel.

Same here.

I used to be more comfortable with the terms godphone and godbothered, but as I'm getting more familiar with the nuances of working with/for deities, I find that I like them less and use them less. I'm up for trying to figure out a new term if anybody's willing to work on it with me.

I'm very glad I'm not the only one with a modified internal monologue kind of communication--though sometimes the communication comes as a strong feeling or an image, depending on who's talking. I find that the more close the relatioship (or intense the entity/deity), the more words and sentences I get. Is this the case for anybody else?
« Last Edit: April 29, 2015, 01:11:22 pm by HarpingHawke »
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Redfaery

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Re: For those with a "god phone..."
« Reply #11 on: April 29, 2015, 01:27:38 pm »
Quote from: HarpingHawke;174416
I find that the more close the relatioship (or intense the entity/deity), the more words and sentences I get. Is this the case for anybody else?

YES. Sarasvati actually "talks" to me now that I've taken Buddhist vows. The words are very clear. It was very, very unsettling at first because...well, I didn't know what to make of it. Frankly, it scared me. I'm still having trouble sorting out what's her from what's my usual brainbabble, since mostly she just likes to hang out and keep me company.
KARMA: You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Ghost235

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Re: For those with a "god phone..."
« Reply #12 on: April 29, 2015, 02:45:49 pm »
Quote from: HarpingHawke;174416

 I find that the more close the relatioship (or intense the entity/deity), the more words and sentences I get. Is this the case for anybody else?


Actually yes.  

The thing that made me realize that my spiritual practice was way out of balance was a strangely determined Freyja who really, REALLY wanted my attention.  Now that I'm listening the words are more clear and frequent and if I get anything in the "mind's eye" it is really quite clear.  Including scoldings about forgetting to wear my Thor's Hammer.  Which happens frequently*.

On the other hand, any contact I have with Odin is quite fuzzy with very few words and usually replied to with, "Thank you for letting me know, don't worry, I'll be fine, I'm sure you are busy, please don't beat me to death with my own walking stick, thank you**"  Basically I have a lot of distance from him because I don't have the level of commitment that a relationship with him would require.

* I am not what you'd call an "Asatru role model" by any means.

**I'm referring to Odin's relationship with Harald Wartooth.  I admire it, I respect it, but I am nowhere near cool enough to be ok with being beaten to death by a deity.

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Re: For those with a "god phone..."
« Reply #13 on: April 29, 2015, 04:06:22 pm »
Quote from: HarpingHawke;174416
I find that the more close the relatioship (or intense the entity/deity), the more words and sentences I get. Is this the case for anybody else?

Yes. Although I don't know what the chicken and egg situation is there. Am I closer to deities I can hear/communicate with better, or the other way around?
"We're all stories, in the end. Make it a good one, eh?"
- Doctor Who

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Re: For those with a "god phone..."
« Reply #14 on: April 29, 2015, 04:40:30 pm »
Quote from: Naomi J;174424
Yes. Although I don't know what the chicken and egg situation is there. Am I closer to deities I can hear/communicate with better, or the other way around?

 
That's...a good question. Excuse me while I ponder that.
"There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self." - Hemingway

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