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Author Topic: Five animals. No apparent message aside from "Hi! Let's hang out!"  (Read 3066 times)

Sharysa

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Re: Five animals. No apparent message aside from "Hi! Let's hang out!"
« Reply #15 on: August 21, 2012, 12:47:08 am »
Quote from: Sharysa;69824




No need to answer the questions in my previous post, since I found the answers after a few hours of Google searching.

However, Wendla sent me a vision last night that I later realized was a gender-reversal of Llew Llaw Gyffes' recovery by Gwydion. Basically: I found Wendla underneath an oak tree, after her baby got torn out of her. And then when she regained her dove form, I realized that her eggs had been taken from the nest and eaten.

I immediately decide to drive her to the hospital; for some reason this makes her happy enough to turn back into a dove and fly into the sun. I kept trying to turn into a bird to keep up with her, but I kept getting scared because I "couldn't handle the air" for some reason.

In the end, I get exhausted/depressed and collapse under the same oak, in the same position Wendla was in, and at least close to the same spot.

So... given that she's a bird who lost her baby, her identity could be either Arianrhod (which would explain why she used Llew Llaw Gyffes' story) or Rhiannon (since she clearly views the loss as traumatic).

Why would she fly into the sun? In the vision it was a good thing, since I got horribly depressed at being too scared to follow her example.
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Faemon

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Re: Five animals. No apparent message aside from "Hi! Let's hang out!"
« Reply #16 on: August 21, 2012, 07:57:36 am »
Quote from: Juniperberry;69682
I would make a guess that your experiences would be similar to mapping out the mental universe, and that you're touching upon cult-utopian symbols and metaphors that have some meaning to you. The tree, the bear, the stag: the other world. There's a good chance you aren't actually visiting the cult-utopia, but projecting expression of the mind, soul, Other within you.

I like that. Actually, these sound a lot like chaotic servitors to me, too. Dion Fortune calls them "artificial elementals" (and talked about how she accidentally made one in the form of Fenrir in her Psychic Self-Defense), Walter Evans-Wentz called them "thoughtforms". It does follow the pattern of how they're usually made, since they started becoming really active in the forms that were the focus of something you (Sharysa) poured a lot-- a lot of emotional energy, into. You also poured a lot of attention into reading your cards, and then they started transforming into animals from their card significators. It seems like they didn't even offer to keep you safe from the Fair Folk until Juniperberry suggested that you might have been elf-shot, which I think would be downright rude of them unless they only know what you know (even when they surprise you.)

Maybe, also, they're separate entities that are just stepping in with forms that you can understand (more than the raw ones) and be comfortable with. But in that case, I also think that there are many, many otherworldly beings that just don't play their parts in any documented mythology.

But since you come off to me as uncomfortable with mystery, ambiguity, and greatly frustrated with their identities being "up in the air" so to speak, for too long...


The bear reminds me of Arcus, son of Kallisto. Greek mythology places him as one of the "dipper" constellations, pointing to Polaris. If I recall correctly, he became the namegiver of Arcadia. The dove, also if I recall correctly, is sacred to Aphrodite, though Nike and (I think) Psyche are also portrayed with wings on their backs. Somehow, Wendla strikes me as a muse, not even one of the nine, or three, best-known ones... but I have this idea that there are millions of spiritual entities that serve the function of muses, flitting here and there. Boars and deer are symbolically significant in heraldry, that's as far as I know. Foxes, on the other hand, always make me think of kitsune. Just throwing that in there.
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Sharysa

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Re: Five animals. No apparent message aside from "Hi! Let's hang out!"
« Reply #17 on: August 21, 2012, 03:16:00 pm »
Quote from: triple_entendre;70037
I like that. Actually, these sound a lot like chaotic servitors to me, too. Dion Fortune calls them "artificial elementals" (and talked about how she accidentally made one in the form of Fenrir in her Psychic Self-Defense), Walter Evans-Wentz called them "thoughtforms". It does follow the pattern of how they're usually made, since they started becoming really active in the forms that were the focus of something you (Sharysa) poured a lot-- a lot of emotional energy, into. You also poured a lot of attention into reading your cards, and then they started transforming into animals from their card significators. It seems like they didn't even offer to keep you safe from the Fair Folk until Juniperberry suggested that you might have been elf-shot, which I think would be downright rude of them unless they only know what you know (even when they surprise you.)


Well, the main reason they didn't keep me safe from the Fair Folk until recently was because Juniperberry's suggestion happened to be around the time I FINALLY managed to contact Moritz directly, as opposed to just seeing him in a bunch of visions. It didn't feel like Juniperberry went "Oh, you got elf-shot" and then Moritz suddenly went "Lol, time to get rid of that arrow in your side because that makes sense."

It felt more like "Oh, you got elf-shot" and then Moritz went, "Yeah, that messed you up BIG TIME. Time to get that arrow out of your side."

Quote
But since you come off to me as uncomfortable with mystery, ambiguity, and greatly frustrated with their identities being "up in the air" so to speak, for too long...


Yeah, I do. Although I'm not uncomfortable with THEM as beneficial entities, I'm uncomfortable with not knowing what exactly they even are. And the fact that they don't seem to match anything specifically. One looks like a member of the play's original Broadway cast, and she doesn't act like a tribal spirit from Europe or Africa--she acts like a modern African-American.

Quote
The bear reminds me of Arcus, son of Kallisto. Greek mythology places him as one of the "dipper" constellations, pointing to Polaris. If I recall correctly, he became the namegiver of Arcadia.


Did you get that from my blog entry a couple of days ago? Because that possibility's been kicking around in my head as well. And getting contacted by the namesake of Arcadia would explain why his visions involve a personalized utopia in the form of Fantasy-Theater-Land.

Quote
The dove, also if I recall correctly, is sacred to Aphrodite, though Nike and (I think) Psyche are also portrayed with wings on their backs.


Doves are sacred to many goddesses of love since they're so heavily connected to love and devotion themselves. I'm really only latching onto the winged-human detail because of the "bird wings" connection. If there were a goddess with bat-wings, I wouldn't think she was Wendla. Plus, as far as I've read, I don't think Aphrodite's ever lost a child as traumatically as Wendla feels she did. I feel it would have been mentioned in the vast Greek mythos.

Quote
Boars and deer are symbolically significant in heraldry, that's as far as I know. Foxes, on the other hand, always make me think of kitsune. Just throwing that in there.


Boars and deer as symbols are about as old as the bear, as mentioned earlier.
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A Disgruntled Scotsman

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Re: Five animals. No apparent message aside from "Hi! Let's hang out!"
« Reply #18 on: August 21, 2012, 03:39:51 pm »
Quote from: wadjet;69588
Bear, boar, and deer are extremely old animistic cult animals, possibly since paleolithic times.

Artio is a Celtic goddess who appears as a bear sometimes. But that is all I know.

 
Quote from: woodhick;69596
Sounds like native american to me, not old irish.... you are living in the right area for those spirits. I do not know what they mean, but I would try to look there... native american spirits do not deal with names as old world ones do


It could be an ancient Gallic forest cult perhaps?
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Re: Five animals. No apparent message aside from "Hi! Let's hang out!"
« Reply #19 on: August 21, 2012, 08:30:59 pm »
Quote
Although I'm not uncomfortable with THEM as beneficial entities, I'm uncomfortable with not knowing what exactly they even are. And the fact that they don't seem to match anything specifically.
Maybe they don't match anything specifically. Maybe we don't have a word, let alone documented mythology, for what exactly they even are. Would you be able to accept that? (Long enough to get off the ground, at least? Because it's possible, I think, that general attitude corresponds to limitations in the mindscape... as opposed to just plain-and-simple acrophobia.)
« Last Edit: August 21, 2012, 08:32:37 pm by Faemon »
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Sharysa

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Re: Five animals. No apparent message aside from "Hi! Let's hang out!"
« Reply #20 on: August 21, 2012, 10:21:48 pm »
Quote from: triple_entendre;70122
Maybe they don't match anything specifically. Maybe we don't have a word, let alone documented mythology, for what exactly they even are. Would you be able to accept that? (Long enough to get off the ground, at least? Because it's possible, I think, that general attitude corresponds to limitations in the mindscape... as opposed to just plain-and-simple acrophobia.)


Given enough time to sort things out and get used to them, yes. I could accept that they're general embodiments of certain symbols as opposed to specific mythology. The reason I couldn't follow Wendla was because I didn't want to transform, not because I literally couldn't. I remember that sometimes I was skimming the ground instead of running, but I kept stopping myself because I was afraid.

Maybe I just keep trying to find identities for them because I don't really have access to their literal counterparts?

I noticed that I'm perfectly fine with viewing crows and the sea as their own presences. I don't insist that a crow-omen has to be the Morrigan or that a specific sea-god is nearby, because crows are crows and the sea is ten minutes away.

Since the Celts were so strongly attuned to their surroundings, that's probably why I mistook the visions I was getting for prophetic visions. With the Spring Awakening troupe, I always feel this incompleteness--I keep saying some version of "I wish you were here/physical/corporeal," and they tend to sigh and nod. Maybe if I were in a more rural area where the appropriate animals are close by, I wouldn't be feeling this disconnect.

Quote from: A Disgruntled Scotsman;70078
It could be an ancient Gallic forest cult perhaps?


Yeah, I'm starting to feel that this is the case. Unfortunately, I don't live near a forest.

And Moritz mentioned just now that I should get "pieces of them" to deal with my feelings of disconnection. Like, literal pieces of them, not just pictures or photos. He gave me the image of a bear's claw and went "That'll help! :D"

I know that most animal-worshipers have images and feathers or shed fur, but would literal pieces of the animal (bones, teeth, and hide) be acceptable for a Celtic Reconstructionist? Also, how hard to find or expensive would that kind of thing be?
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Re: Five animals. No apparent message aside from "Hi! Let's hang out!"
« Reply #21 on: August 21, 2012, 10:57:25 pm »
Quote from: Sharysa;70134




So I ran into a problem. Not only are animal products rather expensive (upwards of $70 at the least), you can't buy or sell animal products unless it's deer hide, shed antlers, or found shells. NATIVE animals, like grizzly bears, are particularly illegal.

I'd have to either hunt the animal myself, find the pieces legally, or make them into different things, but that's kind of against Moritz's point.

It sucks that my own state's conservation laws are making spiritual matters hard.
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Re: Five animals. No apparent message aside from "Hi! Let's hang out!"
« Reply #22 on: August 22, 2012, 01:17:13 am »
Quote from: Sharysa;70137

It sucks that my own state's conservation laws are making spiritual matters hard.

 
Do you really feel need native and/or endangered animals' bits in your room to be spiritual? There are ethical ways to obtain animal parts, but I wouldn't disparage the needed laws (which, yeah, in California are pretty strict). The laws are there for the protection of the land and native animals (including humans), which, personally, is something my spirituality strives to uphold.

Your mileage, of course, may vary. I have no problem with people working with dead animals. Though I will say I do have a problem with people feeling somehow entitled to something that is not theirs to be entitled to.
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Sharysa

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Re: Five animals. No apparent message aside from "Hi! Let's hang out!"
« Reply #23 on: August 22, 2012, 01:24:28 pm »
Quote from: Finn;70150
Do you really feel need native and/or endangered animals' bits in your room to be spiritual?


Well, I don't need the bits--they suggested it because I can't relocate and the lack of a physical connection is really bothering me. I went over the potential substitutes; for non-native or non-threatened species, Martha is fine with feral pigs as opposed to wild boar, since "they were never that different." Although they would have to be FERAL, not just byproducts from a pig-farm. Wendla is already non-native, but she seems all right with mourning-dove products as opposed to turtledove. On actual replicas, farmed animals, or heavily altered products, they've all gone various degrees of "No."

I asked Melchior if I could pass on getting his "bit" because my archery glove is made of deerskin leather, but he went "Really? I didn't notice." Then he poked at it (I was holding it while meditating) and said, "If you have to say what it is, there's not enough essence/spirit/power left in it."

There's definitely something about the unaltered, genuine "pieces" that would help in a way that substitutions would not.

Quote
There are ethical ways to obtain animal parts, but I wouldn't disparage the needed laws (which, yeah, in California are pretty strict). The laws are there for the protection of the land and native animals (including humans), which, personally, is something my spirituality strives to uphold.

Your mileage, of course, may vary. I have no problem with people working with dead animals. Though I will say I do have a problem with people feeling somehow entitled to something that is not theirs to be entitled to.

I didn't intend to sound entitled, and thanks for the links because they're really helpful. I don't have a problem working with dead animals or following the laws, either, but the main reason they're not making me drop 500$ on various animal products right now is that I don't have 500$ to spend on that sort of thing. Every time I mention the legality of it, they keep going, "So? You're an artist--you guys ALWAYS find ways to stay legal."

However, I ran into another problem in that the claws of the grizzly are significant to many tribes--the general rule is that only warriors, respected leaders, and those who were gifted grizzly claws are allowed to wear them. I can't just shop around for grizzly claws after finding that out, but Moritz said to me, "Tell them how you feel and that you're willing to pay for it. Someone will know you're telling the truth."

So I guess I'd have to find local tribe members (most likely the Ohlone, and holy crap, there's an inter-tribal organization right in my college's town) and ask them specifically.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2012, 01:29:27 pm by Sharysa »
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veggiewolf

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Re: Five animals. No apparent message aside from "Hi! Let's hang out!"
« Reply #24 on: August 22, 2012, 03:04:55 pm »
Quote from: Sharysa;70213
Well, I don't need the bits--they suggested it because I can't relocate and the lack of a physical connection is really bothering me. I went over the potential substitutes; for non-native or non-threatened species, Martha is fine with feral pigs as opposed to wild boar, since "they were never that different." Although they would have to be FERAL, not just byproducts from a pig-farm.  Wendla is already non-native, but she seems all right with mourning-dove products as opposed to turtledove.


I don't know the local laws governing feral pigs.  However, mourning doves are protected under the Migratory Bird Treaty Act which, among other things:

Quote
...Federal prohibition, unless permitted by regulations, to "pursue, hunt, take, capture, kill, attempt to take, capture or kill, possess, offer for sale, sell, offer to purchase, purchase, deliver for shipment, ship, cause to be shipped, deliver for transportation, transport, cause to be transported, carry, or cause to be carried by any means whatever, receive for shipment, transportation or carriage, or export, at any time, or in any manner, any migratory bird, included in the terms of this Convention . . . for the protection of migratory birds . . . or any part, nest, or egg of any such bird..."


Under the letter of the MBTA, even moulted feathers can get one into trouble since there's no way to prove that the bird wasn't killed.

Quote
On actual replicas, farmed animals, or heavily altered products, they've all gone various degrees of "No."

I asked Melchior if I could pass on getting his "bit" because my archery glove is made of deerskin leather, but he went "Really? I didn't notice." Then he poked at it (I was holding it while meditating) and said, "If you have to say what it is, there's not enough essence/spirit/power left in it."

There's definitely something about the unaltered, genuine "pieces" that would help in a way that substitutions would not.


The problem is this: you could be setting yourself up.  I suggest that you may want to read the following article: Selling Animal Parts is Mostly Against the Law.  It is California specific.  I also recommend checking out this section of The Green Wolf.  It includes a listing of relevant animal parts laws with links.

Quote
I didn't intend to sound entitled, and thanks for the links because they're really helpful. I don't have a problem working with dead animals or following the laws, either, but the main reason they're not making me drop 500$ on various animal products right now is that I don't have 500$ to spend on that sort of thing. Every time I mention the legality of it, they keep going, "So? You're an artist--you guys ALWAYS find ways to stay legal."

However, I ran into another problem in that the claws of the grizzly are significant to many tribes--the general rule is that only warriors, respected leaders, and those who were gifted grizzly claws are allowed to wear them. I can't just shop around for grizzly claws after finding that out, but Moritz said to me, "Tell them how you feel and that you're willing to pay for it. Someone will know you're telling the truth."

So I guess I'd have to find local tribe members (most likely the Ohlone, and holy crap, there's an inter-tribal organization right in my college's town) and ask them specifically.


I'm not a member of any FN/NA nations but the idea of someone walking in and asking to buy something that can only be gained through specific action smacks of entitlement to me.  Even if you don't mean it that way, that's how it comes across.
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Sharysa

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Re: Five animals. No apparent message aside from "Hi! Let's hang out!"
« Reply #25 on: August 22, 2012, 04:59:48 pm »
Quote from: veggiewolf;70218
I'm not a member of any FN/NA nations but the idea of someone walking in and asking to buy something that can only be gained through specific action smacks of entitlement to me.  Even if you don't mean it that way, that's how it comes across.


So, I sent an email to the Intertribal Friendship House asking whether I should obtain a claw at all.

If they say "Yes, just make sure you have solid proof of our permission beforehand," it's good. If they say I can't buy it and I need to wait for someone to give me one, that's also okay. If they say I shouldn't get a claw at all just to be safe, then I guess I'll just deal with it.

Also, thanks for the input about mourning dove feathers. I had no idea even moulted feathers were legally hazardous to have because most pagans tend to go "Yay, I found some feathers!", but it does make sense.

Speaking of turtledoves, it turns out they're very close to needing conservation help, unless their population decides to explode like rabbits in Australia. I was trawling Google, and a whole slew of articles about the tentative fate of the species showed up.

:hdsk:
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Re: Five animals. No apparent message aside from "Hi! Let's hang out!"
« Reply #26 on: August 22, 2012, 11:19:06 pm »
Quote from: veggiewolf;70218
I don't know the local laws governing feral pigs.

 
In Michigan, it's shoot on site, no permit required, due to their classification as a nuisance species. But I don't know about California; I'm guessing their laws are more strict.

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Re: Five animals. No apparent message aside from "Hi! Let's hang out!"
« Reply #27 on: August 23, 2012, 12:59:56 am »
Quote from: Sharysa;70246
So, I sent an email to the Intertribal Friendship House asking whether I should obtain a claw at all.

If they say "Yes, just make sure you have solid proof of our permission beforehand," it's good. If they say I can't buy it and I need to wait for someone to give me one, that's also okay. If they say I shouldn't get a claw at all just to be safe, then I guess I'll just deal with it.

Also, thanks for the input about mourning dove feathers. I had no idea even moulted feathers were legally hazardous to have because most pagans tend to go "Yay, I found some feathers!", but it does make sense.

Speaking of turtledoves, it turns out they're very close to needing conservation help, unless their population decides to explode like rabbits in Australia. I was trawling Google, and a whole slew of articles about the tentative fate of the species showed up.

:hdsk:


In heathenry the idol is the physical body of the gods (or their home). Nerthus is a good example; her procession began when they priest felt the weight of her spirit enter into the idol.

Maybe you could make some idols (claws, birds, w/e) out of salt dough clay and see how you respond to it.
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Sharysa

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Re: Five animals. No apparent message aside from "Hi! Let's hang out!"
« Reply #28 on: August 23, 2012, 03:41:44 pm »
Quote from: Juniperberry;70301
In heathenry the idol is the physical body of the gods (or their home). Nerthus is a good example; her procession began when they priest felt the weight of her spirit enter into the idol.

Maybe you could make some idols (claws, birds, w/e) out of salt dough clay and see how you respond to it.

Thanks for the suggestion and input; I also found out why Moritz even suggested to "get pieces of us" in the first place. Primal religions (particularly shamanistic ones) believe that using the animal's physical parts will give them a spiritual connection to the animal's spirit, and/or the abilities and qualities that they embody.

On the Wild Pig matter: I found out that Californian wild pigs are not only feral in the "escaped pig" sense, they're feral in the "literal boar-pig hybrids" sense.

Which means they're increasingly more boar-like with each generation, and everyone hates them because they're crazy bastards who like eating the rest of the wildlife. (And not just plants.) Apparently mountain lions are the only ones who can take down adults; the grizzly could also do so, but Californian grizzlies went extinct around the same time that someone got the bright idea to IMPORT SOME FUCKING BOARS. Literally, the last Californian grizzly was shot in the 1920s, and then someone in the early twenties went, "Let's get two dozen Eurasian boars and turn them loose for hunting!"

So... that explains why Martha's here.

And given that everyone already hates them (especially farmers), they have very few predators, and they're legal to hunt year-round, feral pig products are DEFINITELY legal.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2012, 03:45:51 pm by Sharysa »
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Re: Five animals. No apparent message aside from "Hi! Let's hang out!"
« Reply #29 on: September 20, 2012, 03:21:43 pm »
So last week, I had a stupid minor argument with my sister. Unfortunately, the stupid minor argument was NEARLY the last straw and pushed me into thinking I should pack up and start living in my car.

Everyone freaked out about it, the Morrigan had to give me a flat tire to make me stay home, and on Sunday they explained why.

Quote from: Sharysa;74606
They explained that they're my family members from various past lives, and that I frequently incarnate as someone that my family is unable or unwilling to understand--which explains why they all immediately accepted me into their fold.

Whenever I ran away in my past lives because I couldn't cope with my familial environment anymore, it... didn't end well. They keep telling me some version of "we'll find you (this time)--PLEASE don't run away again."
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Allaya, Chatelaine, EclecticWheel, HarpingHawke, Kylara, PerditaPickle, rocquelaire

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