gods and astrology

[arete]

So they say on that site, but it doesn't actually match up that neatly. For example, someone born between 21 March and 4 April is an Aries in Western astrology, but their Chinese sign is Rabbit, not Dragon; only those born between 5 April and 20 April are both Aries and Dragon, and those born between 20 April and 4 May are Dragon, but Taurus.

The dates match neatly. The dates are exactly as they should be.

[Anon100]

The dates match neatly. The dates are exactly as they should be.

Might I be a bit curious and ask which astrology you prefer and do you see it as a guage of underlying personality traits or as a form of divination?

I've always been a bit dubious about divination as it feels very limited in its focusing. I must admit that part of this is due to the fact that it's used so widely in non personal settings ( read your stars in the paper - the same as hundereds of thousands of others with the same sign ) and the fact that I can't see the position of stars having a major direct impact on day to day life.
That said I find myself dubious about any divination without a 'human' element. Basically I can see how human interpretation can be fine tuned with either divine input or mental/magic/vibrational sub conciousness but I think a deity moving the stars or such may be them putting in a lot more effort just so an individual can have an idea of what may happen than they need to given the difference in our positions - after all moving those stars will have an effect on other planets, other people's readings, possible tides ( if it's the position of the moon or local planets in a star chart etc ) among other things. A deity has to take into account all these knock on affects whereas a whisper in the ear, some sub harmony or a slight breeze at the right time may give the same solution.

Without the human element the interpretation of any divination is too broad in my mind. So tarot cards and divining rods and books which you open to find one word are all just a way to focus and open a mind to get better answers.

Sorry for the long reply and it is just my own feelings   

[Jenett]

Might I be a bit curious and ask which astrology you prefer and do you see it as a guage of underlying personality traits or as a form of divination?

It's probably worth noting here that a lot of the personality-focused astrology stuff you see out in the world (especially the sort that shows up in newspapers or fairly one-note options) is a pretty recent thing historically.

I've heard people discuss the evidence that it comes out of the anti-divination laws that became quote common in the early 20th century, and began to become undone in the 1950s in the UK, and rather later in the US, but I don't have cites handy or expect to have the brains to dig them up soon. It certainly matches up with other historical patterns, though!

I tend to look at astrology in two forms: one is what is sometimes called "space weather" these days. Some physical activities are easier to do when it is sunny out, or raining out, or whatever other physical weather we might be having, other things are harder. The same thing, it can be argued, can be true of the space weather. If the space weather is all about Capricorn (as it is right now, with Jupiter and Saturn in that sign, and the moon for a couple of days a month, and so on...), doing the stuff that is about slow steady putting the work in is likely to be easier than projects that involve a lot of firey initiation energy and flashy interactions.

I can (and do) use that to plan things accordingly, or figure out ways to make things less annoying if I want to do a thing and the weather is not terribly agreeable. (Similar to "I really want to go out to this thing, and it's raining, guess I'll make sure I have an umbrella.")

Personally, I find that Mercury retrograde is good reminder to check my tech backup systems, make sure my car has an oil change (and a look over), and otherwise be extra attentive to communication and how I use my words. (And the same thing for other retrogrades, in the areas where they apply.) I find the larger patterns - as planets move into and out of signs - useful for asking myself a series of questions about how I am in the world. For the faster moving inner planets, I'll hit a solid range of questions over a manageable period of time, in all areas of my life. (The slowest of the inner planets, Mars, moves through all the signs in about 2 years.)

Actual chart analysis, of course, is also a very different thing than what you see in the papers - since it looks not just at the sun sign (how you show yourself to the world) but your ascending sign, your moon sign, and where the other planets are. Again, I don't think this is proscriptive, but it does suggest tendencies in what I'm going to find easier and harder (like my physical body and my personal brain have stuff that are easier and harder). Then I get to decide what I'm doing about that.

It's also possible to use it in a divinatory form, of "Is doing this thing a good idea or a bad idea", but as in all forms of divination, I think that isn't "what is going to happen", but "What is going to happen if nothing changes". Sometimes asking the question changes things enough. Sometimes asking particular questions does. Sometimes looking at the results of a particular course of action makes you decide to do something else. Divination isn't pre-ordained fate: it's figuring out more about your choices and their potential consequences.

And of course, in astrology, the human element when dealing with a natal chart is the person whose chart it is. There are effects embodied in the chart because they're embodied in my body, as it were: that is a moment which was critically important to me. It is possible, when looking at my chart, to see other major events in my life, even though interpreting what those would be in advance might be a bit more tricky - as you say, there are a lot of influences at play, and it's tricky to figure out which ones are which (which is where having people who look at lots of charts is handy.)

One of the things I think about as a librarian is that I do a lot of pattern matching very fast when I get questions - and because most of the questions I deal with at work come in by email, I often have a bunch of pieces (the kind of address someone is emailing us from, what they say, how the message got to me), but there are lots of pieces that are very real that I don't know, but where pattern matching on what I do know will help me make a better first response. There's a piece of this that is part experience, and part the art of pattern matching. I look at astrology the same way, 'which patterns are relevant here to get me closer to the information that is most helpful'.

[Louisvillian]

Was astrology ever formally banned by the Church?

I disagree with most of arete's argument, but on this point they're...kinda? right? It's ambiguous. Astrology and other forms of divination were banned on pain of death by the Roman Empire after it converted to Christianity. But that was more an issue of criminal law by the state, rather than canon law by the Church.

[Jenett]

I disagree with most of arete's argument, but on this point they're...kinda? right? It's ambiguous. Astrology and other forms of divination were banned on pain of death by the Roman Empire after it converted to Christianity. But that was more an issue of criminal law by the state, rather than canon law by the Church.

There was also extensive use of astrology, and astrological magic, by the elite courts of Europe in the late medieval and Renaissance. (c.f. Peter Mark Adams' Game of Saturn which focuses on the court of Ferrara, but gives a decent overview of what was going on in what is now Italy as a whole, with occasional references to other countries.)

(The resources needed to do extensive astrological calculations are more complicated in the period before the printing press, but I seem to recall there's some bits in there too. I do remember from my history class on Renaissance Florence back in college that the magic that got punished legally wasn't 'all magic' but rather 'magic disruptive to the family'. So love magic, plausibly okay, but 'let me make this man leave his family and ignore his obligations' got punished pretty severely. I did a paper looking at it, though I admit it was working off published trial accounts in translation.)

[Sefiru]

There was also extensive use of astrology, and astrological magic, by the elite courts of Europe in the late medieval and Renaissance.

This is what I was thinking of when I brought up that point; I'm more familiar with this period in history than late Roman times.

I imagine social status was also a factor; as a general impression, 'scholarly' magic such as astrology seems to have gotten more leeway than others.

[Sefiru]

their expertise is in Indian/Vedic astrology, and their knowledge of Western and Chinese systems is fairly superficial.

I didn't know this was a thing. More reading to do ... (watch me accidentally become an astrologer now  )

[Jainarayan]

Do you associate religion with astrology?

Hinduism and astrology (Vedic astrology, aka Jyotiṣa) are very closely interwined. Jyotiṣa is a whole field of study and quite complex. Almost all life decisions were made after consulting a Vedic astrologer who would study the birth charts of the persons involved, and determine the most auspicious times for any undertaking.

[arete]

Might I be a bit curious and ask which astrology you prefer and do you see it as a guage of underlying personality traits or as a form of divination?

I don't have a preference, actually. I'm interested in every astrology I come across, because I see it as one earth one sky.

As for the second question, both. My complain is that I can't find enough info for less popular astrologies and I don't have the money to go to an astrology school. Astrology can give traits and divination, if used properly.

[arete]

Hinduism and astrology (Vedic astrology, aka Jyotiṣa) are very closely interwined. Jyotiṣa is a whole field of study and quite complex. Almost all life decisions were made after consulting a Vedic astrologer who would study the birth charts of the persons involved, and determine the most auspicious times for any undertaking.

Hinduism is the only pagan religion that wasn't interrupted, and it's ties with astrology are strong. I'm jealous.