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Author Topic: Feeling drawn towards Satan again, any advice?  (Read 1758 times)

Mewtini

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Feeling drawn towards Satan again, any advice?
« on: April 26, 2016, 12:52:04 am »
So here I am, hot on my heels of my theological wavering in pursuit of more waverings!  Aint I just grand?

So, as you probably know, I'm a Slavic pagan.  Specifically, I have devoted myself to the god Veles, who I've found I can relate to.  A god of earthly affairs, trickery, and wealth, he appeals to me far better than Perun.  It helps that the apparition I see upon meditating is a sort of Baphomet-esque figure, and since Veles is often portrayed as having the horns of a goat I think it might be an aspect of him.

That's all well and good, but yet my first encounter with alternative religions, magic, and the occult was through discovering theistic Satanism.  Specifically, my first forage into this environment was discovering the JoyofSatan website back in 2012.  The naive teenager I was, I felt quite drawn to Satan and at first accepted the teachings on the site.  Of course, I quickly rejected the vast majority of them the moment I discovered what the group was really about (I was slow to pick up on the Nazi thing), but unfortunately I ended up with the impression that all of theistic Satanism functioned like that.  So in that regard, I abandoned Satan and dove into a study of neopaganism and wicca which went on and off until I more or less settled on the pantheon I have now.

Despite this, I have always felt an unconscious pull towards Lucifer, this muse of our civilization.  After discovering that nazi-Satanists were far from the majority, I felt more comfortable looking into theistic Satanism, especially when I found alternative sources.  I had been kinda driven away from it for a while, in my attempts to forge my own path and figure out just where I stand in the cosmos, and then there was my various bouts of depression that really crippled my sense of spirituality.  But now, as a Slavic/Asatru pagan, I feel the pull towards Lucifer once more.  What's more, I feel like Satan corresponds to Veles, the god I've devoted myself to, at least in certain aspects.  I dont think they're exactly the same being, but I find them similar in respect to them being adversarial entities to the chief deity, serving as a challenger and trickster, yet also involved in the affairs of the world and being quite rewarding to those they deem worthy.

Is it too much of a stretch to honor them both?  Can I keep the Slavic gods, while also holding true to Satan?  Please note that my concept of Satan isn't particularly Biblical, and I certainly dont think he's a fallen angel.  Though even in the Bible, he's not that bad of a guy, but that's besides the point.  Should I embrace this connection?  Or should I put it aside and focus on a more orthodox form of paganism?

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Re: Feeling drawn towards Satan again, any advice?
« Reply #1 on: April 26, 2016, 08:33:30 am »
Quote from: Mewtini;190385
Should I embrace this connection?  Or should I put it aside and focus on a more orthodox form of paganism?

 
You should stop thinking that there's ever an answer to "should I" in religion.

Whether or not you can do these things is up to your ability to make and keep commitments and resolve whatever conflicts and theological nuances arise from attempting it.  Whether or not doing will be useful, meaningful, beautiful, healthy, growth-producing for you is something nobody else can really answer.
as the water grinds the stone
we rise and fall
as our ashes turn to dust
we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

RecycledBenedict

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Re: Feeling drawn towards Satan again, any advice?
« Reply #2 on: April 26, 2016, 03:36:22 pm »
Quote from: Mewtini;190385
So, as you probably know, I'm a Slavic pagan.  Specifically, I have devoted myself to the god Veles, who I've found I can relate to.  A god of earthly affairs, trickery, and wealth, he appeals to me far better than Perun.  It helps that the apparition I see upon meditating is a sort of Baphomet-esque figure, and since Veles is often portrayed as having the horns of a goat I think it might be an aspect of him.

(...)

Despite this, I have always felt an unconscious pull towards Lucifer, this muse of our civilization.  (...)  But now, as a Slavic/Asatru pagan, I feel the pull towards Lucifer once more.  What's more, I feel like Satan corresponds to Veles, the god I've devoted myself to, at least in certain aspects.  I dont think they're exactly the same being, but I find them similar in respect to them being adversarial entities to the chief deity, serving as a challenger and trickster, yet also involved in the affairs of the world and being quite rewarding to those they deem worthy.

Is it too much of a stretch to honor them both?  Can I keep the Slavic gods, while also holding true to Satan?  Please note that my concept of Satan isn't particularly Biblical, and I certainly dont think he's a fallen angel.  Though even in the Bible, he's not that bad of a guy, but that's besides the point.  Should I embrace this connection?  Or should I put it aside and focus on a more orthodox form of paganism?

Please remember, that the conceptions of Lucifer, Satan and Baphomet are three rather distinct conceptions, and that there are several different conceptions of Lucifer: The fallen angel corrupting the element of Fire has very little in common with the Ugaritic Morningstar, the 19th century French firebrand for Human Rights or Madeline Montalban's benevolent Lumiel. That makes at least four different Lucifers.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2016, 03:37:21 pm by RecycledBenedict »

Castus

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Re: Feeling drawn towards Satan again, any advice?
« Reply #3 on: April 26, 2016, 04:28:17 pm »
Quote from: Mewtini;190385
Is it too much of a stretch to honor them both?  Can I keep the Slavic gods, while also holding true to Satan?  Please note that my concept of Satan isn't particularly Biblical, and I certainly dont think he's a fallen angel.  Though even in the Bible, he's not that bad of a guy, but that's besides the point.  Should I embrace this connection?  Or should I put it aside and focus on a more orthodox form of paganism?


I find you dastardly charming, against my better judgement.

While, as an Abrahamic monotheist, I should probably just tell you to scurry to Hashem and be done with it, as a former pagan I feel compelled to point out much as Kiya has that you can do whatever you want. "Orthodox" forms of paganism are few and far between, and you don't seem to subscribe to any of them. If you want to honour Slavic deities and whatever conception of Satan your heart desires, run with it!

Mewtini

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Re: Feeling drawn towards Satan again, any advice?
« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2016, 06:03:07 pm »
Quote from: FraterBenedict;190407
Please remember, that the conceptions of Lucifer, Satan and Baphomet are three rather distinct conceptions, and that there are several different conceptions of Lucifer: The fallen angel corrupting the element of Fire has very little in common with the Ugaritic Morningstar, the 19th century French firebrand for Human Rights or Madeline Montalban's benevolent Lumiel. That makes at least four different Lucifers.

 
Honestly, many Satanists would argue that Satan and Lucifer as the same being.  Baphomet I can understand, but he has often been associated with Satan throughout history.

Regardless, I dont believe in Lucifer/Satan being a literal fallen angel, but I think all these sorts of interpretations are merely different aspects of the same deity, rather than different ones altogether.  The Satan aspect represents rebellion, pride, and carnal desires, as well as a general adversarial force to what is mainstream, but the Lucifer aspect is a bit more like Prometheus, representing discovery, innovation, and the like.  I think one would find that the two aspects would overlap, as discovery often requires one to first break away from dogma and the status quo.

That's just my personal way of seeing it, but I can easily see how a symbol of defiance could go hand in hand with human rights, illumination, and the fire element.

RecycledBenedict

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Re: Feeling drawn towards Satan again, any advice?
« Reply #5 on: April 26, 2016, 06:08:55 pm »
Quote from: Mewtini;190421
Honestly, many Satanists would argue that Satan and Lucifer as the same being.

Yes, indeed, but it is equally true, that, honestly, many Satanists would argue that Satan, Lucifer, Leviathan, Belial and Azazel are definitely five very separate beings. There is no such thing as a unified, orthodox and homogenous Satanism. And, by the way, how do you relate to the goetic part of Lemegeton if all spirits are one and the same?
« Last Edit: April 26, 2016, 06:10:48 pm by RecycledBenedict »

Mewtini

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Re: Feeling drawn towards Satan again, any advice?
« Reply #6 on: April 26, 2016, 06:24:26 pm »
Quote from: FraterBenedict;190422
Yes, indeed, but it is equally true, that, honestly, many Satanists would argue that Satan, Lucifer, Leviathan, Belial and Azazel are definitely five very separate beings. There is no such thing as a unified, orthodox and homogenous Satanism. And, by the way, how do you relate to the goetic part of Lemegeton if all spirits are one and the same?

 
When did I mention Leviathan, Belial, and Azazel?  I was clearly only talking about Satan/Lucifer.  I dont think all spirits are the same either, as can be seen with something like Lucifer-of-Sophia compared to the actual Lucifer.

But yeah, the Temple of the Black Light makes a pretty convincing argument about why Satan and Lucifer are ultimately the same being, but different representations.  I'd rather not get into too much of an argument about all this, since it detracts from the OP a bit, so let's agree to disagree here.

RecycledBenedict

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Re: Feeling drawn towards Satan again, any advice?
« Reply #7 on: April 26, 2016, 08:08:30 pm »
Quote from: Mewtini;190423
When did I mention Leviathan, Belial, and Azazel?


I agree, that we ought to agree to disagree.

The tetrad of Lucifer, Satan, Leviathan and Belial, as four separate beings, is present in The Book of Abramelin, so it isn't an uncommon or non-influential view in the Western Esoteric Tradition. I added Azazel, since he is important in some forms of modern theistic Satanism.

Emma Eldritch

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Re: Feeling drawn towards Satan again, any advice?
« Reply #8 on: April 27, 2016, 01:15:44 am »
Quote from: Mewtini;190385
Is it too much of a stretch to honor them both?  Can I keep the Slavic gods, while also holding true to Satan?  Please note that my concept of Satan isn't particularly Biblical, and I certainly dont think he's a fallen angel.  Though even in the Bible, he's not that bad of a guy, but that's besides the point.  Should I embrace this connection?  Or should I put it aside and focus on a more orthodox form of paganism?

 
I say go for it. Seriously, if you feel the pull there's obviously a reason. You're the only one who can decide what's more important: being 'orthodox' or forging your own path that resonates with you.

Mewtini

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Re: Feeling drawn towards Satan again, any advice?
« Reply #9 on: April 27, 2016, 01:59:22 am »
Quote from: Mama Fortuna;190446
I say go for it. Seriously, if you feel the pull there's obviously a reason. You're the only one who can decide what's more important: being 'orthodox' or forging your own path that resonates with you.

 
I guess now is a good of a time as any to say that I've never been one for self confidence.  One of the things that always gave me trouble when I was originally looking into paganism was that I couldn't figure out where to start, what the holy texts were, ect.  I suppose I had always been used to the idea of religion being an organized body with a central doctrine, initiation, prayers, and other such things.  Basically, I like to know what I'm supposed to do.  It didn't help that groups I initially found, like the Asatru Folk Assembly or the Joy of Satan tended to have pretty strict doctrines, so I thought that kind of thing was the norm rather than the exception.

But recently, I've been seeing things differently.  Perhaps religion doesn't need to be organized, or have a central dogma.  Perhaps the only dogma is the dogma I create myself.  I have begun to embrace the Chaos, as it were, against the limiting religions of Cosmos.

Throughout my spiritual discoveries, I've always seemed to find myself coming back to Satan in various forms, and though I've been fascinated by him it is only now that I have begun to fully embrace his power.  Veles and Satan, my patron deities.

This spiritual power feels wonderful, I'm so damn full of energy that I cant fall asleep, even though it's 2 in the morning.  I feel like doing exercises, which is something I almost never want to do normally.  The gods are powerful indeed :)

Emma Eldritch

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Re: Feeling drawn towards Satan again, any advice?
« Reply #10 on: April 27, 2016, 02:11:53 am »
Quote from: Mewtini;190449
But recently, I've been seeing things differently.  Perhaps religion doesn't need to be organized, or have a central dogma.  Perhaps the only dogma is the dogma I create myself.  I have begun to embrace the Chaos, as it were, against the limiting religions of Cosmos.


I will say that Satan has a long history in popular culture of rebellion against The Man. Maybe that's why he's so alluring to you right now.

Quote
This spiritual power feels wonderful, I'm so damn full of energy that I cant fall asleep, even though it's 2 in the morning.  I feel like doing exercises, which is something I almost never want to do normally.  The gods are powerful indeed :)

 
Just be careful not to pull a muscle!

RecycledBenedict

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Re: Feeling drawn towards Satan again, any advice?
« Reply #11 on: April 27, 2016, 06:50:11 am »
Quote from: Mewtini;190449
But recently, I've been seeing things differently.  Perhaps religion doesn't need to be organized, or have a central dogma.


In most cases, the religious organizations and the political organization of society was one and the same, in pre-Christian religions. Egyptian priests performed their rites on behalf of Pharao. The Roman Senate appointed priests for limited terms. The Greek polis functioned in a similar way. The public face of Old Norse religion was indissolubly intertwined with the courts of justice (thingr).

On the other hand, citizens/inhabitants/subjects were free to interpret the content of the mandatory public rites however they wanted, as long as the rites were performed in accordance with ancestral traditions. In the late Republic and the entire imperial age, there existed such a thing as Semi-agnostic Pagans, and some Stoics interpreted the deities as entirely identical to natural phenomena in a reductionist way. These lines of thought existed side by side with intensely devout texts expressing anthropomorphizing concepts of the personhood of the deities. Mandatory orthodoxy there was not.

Goddess_Ashtara

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Re: Feeling drawn towards Satan again, any advice?
« Reply #12 on: May 31, 2017, 06:58:56 pm »
Is it too much of a stretch to honor them both?  Can I keep the Slavic gods, while also holding true to Satan?  Please note that my concept of Satan isn't particularly Biblical, and I certainly dont think he's a fallen angel.  Though even in the Bible, he's not that bad of a guy, but that's besides the point.  Should I embrace this connection?  Or should I put it aside and focus on a more orthodox form of paganism?

People tend not to perceive Satan the same way.  Some see a loyal angel of God(s) incapable of "falling"... some see a fallen angel. Some see a champion of God(s), or a son of God(s).  Some see an archdemon, or a djinn, or even a deity. 

Some see a religious tactic used to control and manipulate the masses.  Some view Satan as an obstacle fulfilling its purpose, a part of our human Nature meant to be overcome... an inclination towards malevolence, or "evil", whispering the temptation to behave against the Will of God(s).

Many people see a character in a story, without considering that character's archetypal attributes and how those archetypal attributes are connected to individual human Nature and collective human Nature.  Many people do consider these archetypal attributes (as perceived through some spiritual-religious system), and those who do often make interesting distinctions between a "Satan" and a "Lucifer".

If you feel a strong inclination to include a concept of a Satan in your spiritual-religious system, I suggest you embrace Satan however you Will, in whatever manner resonates with your Weltanschauung, regardless of what God(s) you include in your pantheon.
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