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Author Topic: Divine Punishment in the afterlife?  (Read 3380 times)


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Re: Divine Punishment in the afterlife?
« Reply #30 on: February 15, 2014, 05:34:51 am »
Quote from: Shaykh Sha'ir Abdullah;139867
Oh you know very little. Must I seriously start pulling out the Sumerian stories of old along with the Kemitic?

A Reminder:
This is very close to a personal attack, which would violate our rules. In light of the subsequent posts, it's clear that it's a side effect of your confusion about the usage of 'Heathen', so I'm not giving you a formal warning, just a reminder: please be more careful with how you express such things in the future.

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Re: Divine Punishment in the afterlife?
« Reply #31 on: February 15, 2014, 06:34:22 am »
Quote from: Naomi J;139910
Personally I believe that when you're dead, you're dead.

My own beliefs waver around, but the older I get the more they tend to waver in this direction.  I really like the idea HeartShadow (I think) said a few pages ago, that it's what we do here, now, that matters, not storing up rep points for another place.

I kind of like the idea of reincarnation.  I like the idea of getting a post mortem pat on the head for any good I've managed to achieve.  I like the idea of awful people who do horrible things getting a damn good smiting.  I like the idea of kicking back and chilling with the various dogs I knew in life.  But there's a difference between liking a thing, and it being true.

I'm vaguely Celtic, in some of the stuff I do and deities and symbolism I work with, but I'm not a reconstructionist and don't follow any precise creed.  (I'm a mutt of cultures that would never have been combined in a single person until the modern age, and I think my spirituality reflects my ancestry.)  As Naomi said, 'Celtic' is vast and covers a lot of different and sometimes contradictory stuff.  I think it'd be hubris to assume that, out of all those options, one of them's correct and I can pick it.


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Re: Divine Punishment in the afterlife?
« Reply #32 on: February 15, 2014, 08:01:19 am »
Quote from: Shaykh Sha'ir Abdullah;139850
I never said I deny divine reward, it is not my topic though as I have met no person who is a theist and denies divine reward

I never said you did. In fact that was my point, that you didn’t mention it, which I find strange since as I understand it divine retribution and reward belong together. I’m surprised that you know theists who apparently believe in divine reward but not retribution, because I only know people that belief in either both or neither.

Quote from: Shaykh Sha'ir Abdullah;139874
I view paganism as being more open because you can establish the standards with a deity however you wish to while in almost every other religions (Hinduism is excluded) you cannot. What the book says is what the deity permits.

I’m not sure that Hindus can deal with deities any way they want. They seem to have pretty elaborate rituals and customs, though I don’t know enough about Hinduism to really discuss this. I also don’t think that almost every religion (on a global scale and throughout time) has/had a book that tells them what deities want.

As for Neo-Pagan theists, what they usually try to do is contact the gods and ask them what they want and then do that. That isn’t really the same as dealing with deities “however you wish” and may even be a more honest and respectful way of contacting the gods than blindly copying from a book. And while they may believe that the god(s) will react negatively if they get it wrong, this “divine retribution” is not necessarily part of the afterlife but something that happens immediately (i.e. in your lifetime) as a direct response to the misconduct.

Quote from: Shaykh Sha'ir Abdullah;139881
We have plenty of records they are just not extensive and complete. The tablets found in Ugarit are one such example. It is not a matter of keeping anything pure by following something it is a matter of purity by acknowledging its existence.

The tablets of Ugarit are only relevant to people that want to revive that specific religion. They have no bearing on anything else. This is something I find confusing about your posts. If you use “heathen” in the colloquial sense then that would be everything that’s not part of Abrahamic religions, which includes a whole ton of religions, ancient and new, on all five continents. Yet you only seem to take your cues for what “heathen” beliefs were/are from Middle Eastern sources. I know you said that that’s what you’re most interested in and therefore know most about. That’s perfectly fine. What bothers me is that you seem to think that these very specific sources from a comparatively small geographic area are somehow exemplary for all beliefs in the world.


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Re: Divine Punishment in the afterlife?
« Reply #33 on: February 15, 2014, 09:57:41 am »
Quote from: Shaykh Sha'ir Abdullah;139874

Also when I say divine retribution I am actually using it in an Islamic sense, I am sorry but this cannot be helped. Spent WAY too much time as a Muslim it will take an exorcism to get me to stop behaving like one regardless of my religious identity.
Divine retribution is more a contract type thing in Islam that references towards the idea of ibadah. When one becomes a worshiper of a deity they abide by that deities standards. If you lived in a communist country you abide by communist norms and if you lived in a democratic society you abide by those norms. I have always held the view that you just do not get up and accept a god and just do as you wish. Each and every god throughout history has his/her's own standards rules and methods of worship and ethics etc.

You establish the relationship you want with that deity like a contract and keep it. It is a form of honesty essentially. What if I find benefit in praying to a god for something and I become lazy and stop doing my part of the job?

Bolding mine.

In Germanic paganism (heathenry), the normal relationship between god and man is one of individual bargaining, not life-long contracts.

So, if I wanted smooth sailing then maybe I'd bargain for it with a cow's life. If the god accepted this bargain (by calming the seas) then I'd throw the cow overboard and we'd be square (the god and I, not the cow and I).  If I didn't throw the cow overboard, then the god would take it's life anyway, either through sudden sickness or some other bad luck. And then we'd be square.

Once your dead you lose your bargaining chips and you're out of the game. The gods in heathenry are about life, whereas the afterlife is about the dead, and it's your personal dead I assume you have to worry about as far as retribution goes, and why ancestor veneration is so important.
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