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Author Topic: Continental Celtic Deities-- Your Take (and a bit of the Brits, too!)  (Read 4240 times)

NibbleKat

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Re: Continental Celtic Deities-- Your Take (and a bit of the Brits, too!)
« Reply #15 on: July 27, 2012, 11:53:26 am »
Quote from: LiminalAuggie;66230
Oh Continental deities. Sometimes I wonder if I got nudged into this area because I like ridiculous research challenges.
 
I view Him as solar, but not the sun itself, which is kind of weird? There seems to be equal parts fire and water going on. I associate Him with things like light reflected on bodies of water, heat rising from underground, sunlight coming through leaves on tall trees...very nourishing and enriching and sustaining, and not very anthropomorphic.
 
I'm still trying to wrap my head around whether I should be honoring Belenos at Beltaine in addition to the solstices and equinoxes, which I'd previously devoted to just the Sun when I was more of a barebones animist.

 
Well... wasn't Belenos a Continental deity, whereas Beltaine is primarily Irish/Scottish/Isle of Man? I could be way off-- I don't celebrate Beltaine or the similar "holidays" except for Samhain, and even that's more of in the modern Halloween/Day of the Dead sense... I've never associated Beltaine and similar ones with my deities, so I just don't ...do them. :) But if I'm wrong, I'd like to be put right.

And also, I view Sequana in a very similar light (HAHA) regarding the sun; she isn't the sun, she is of the sun.  Kind of like... Policemen aren't THE LAW itself, but they are of the law and the law at the same time.  They're an extension of the Big Thing. That's not the best analogy to be put down, but it's the one I could come up with.
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NibbleKat

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Re: Continental Celtic Deities-- Your Take (and a bit of the Brits, too!)
« Reply #16 on: July 27, 2012, 11:55:48 am »
Quote from: Jenett;66253
The strong impression I get from M'Lady is "English, not Celtic, thank you." but for purposes of this conversation, the answers to your question might be helpful anyway). Possibly originally Roman in origin. Possibly originally Angle/Saxon/Pict/whatever in origin. I regularly get the strong impression they haven't been out much in public for a very long time.

Briefly: goddess associated with water (especially pools/streams/smaller bodies), concerned with a particular kind of flow of interconnection (information, community building in the quiet ways, not the showy ones). Her consort is somewhere in the hunter/land steward paradigm: I'm His because I'm Hers, rather than one of the other options out there. He's all horse hoof-beats and sun through trees and riding the boundaries of stone walls.

But this is scarcely unique: there is evidence for a lot of deities-of-place where we have very little further evidence beyond a few scattered details. (Really, I think the next step in making headway is going to be actually going to England as an adult and wandering around until something clicks. I have some ideas, but.)

Almost everything I have is UPG, but it's UPG gathered over nearly 10 years, and it's been fairly consistent over that time. I keep poking at deities for whom we have archaeological evidence, or, y'know, *names*, and keep not coming up with enough of a match. (I have usenames for both of them, but they map to absolutely nothing useful historically.)

 
I was just reading Miranda Green's "Gods of the Celts" this morning where she was talking about horses being solar deities ...but that's for the Celts.  So, if M'Lady is identifying as English instead of Celt, then yeah... I could see that she'd be much more of Angle/Saxon/Pict... which would mean on the tail end of the Celts/new wave of immigrants into the British Isles, right? Maybe?
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Celtag

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Re: Continental Celtic Deities-- Your Take (and a bit of the Brits, too!)
« Reply #17 on: July 27, 2012, 12:48:02 pm »
Quote from: NibbleKat;66269
I was just reading Miranda Green's "Gods of the Celts" this morning where she was talking about horses being solar deities ...but that's for the Celts.  So, if M'Lady is identifying as English instead of Celt, then yeah... I could see that she'd be much more of Angle/Saxon/Pict... which would mean on the tail end of the Celts/new wave of immigrants into the British Isles, right? Maybe?
I would say mainly Anglo-Saxon instead of Pict, since the Picts were in Britian maybe even before the Celts got there. Or the Picts could have been Celts themselves. No one really knows for certain. I always view the Picts as being Celtic or Very close to it. Just my two cents.
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LiminalAuggie

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Re: Continental Celtic Deities-- Your Take (and a bit of the Brits, too!)
« Reply #18 on: July 27, 2012, 12:59:49 pm »
Quote from: NibbleKat;66268
Well... wasn't Belenos a Continental deity, whereas Beltaine is primarily Irish/Scottish/Isle of Man? I could be way off-- I don't celebrate Beltaine or the similar "holidays" except for Samhain, and even that's more of in the modern Halloween/Day of the Dead sense... I've never associated Beltaine and similar ones with my deities, so I just don't ...do them. :) But if I'm wrong, I'd like to be put right.

No, you're right on that one. It's just that I was reading somewhere (I don't remember now, it might have been an older source or one of those "here's some continental archaeology now we're going to definitively connect it to much later insular practices and names" deals) that kept hammering the idea that Beltaine was definitely Belenos' holiday and I keep going "ehhhh? but...what?"

I seem to get along fine without celebrating that one, though.

Quote
And also, I view Sequana in a very similar light (HAHA) regarding the sun; she isn't the sun, she is of the sun.  Kind of like... Policemen aren't THE LAW itself, but they are of the law and the law at the same time.  They're an extension of the Big Thing. That's not the best analogy to be put down, but it's the one I could come up with.


Yep, I think that's a great analogy. They derive power from/are representatives of that energy and interface with we "the public" in that capacity.  

I still don't quite get where the solar deity/horses connection comes from, since everything I look at seems to be like "well the chariot of Apollo" and I sort of shake my head sadly.

NibbleKat

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Re: Continental Celtic Deities-- Your Take (and a bit of the Brits, too!)
« Reply #19 on: July 27, 2012, 03:56:23 pm »
Quote from: LiminalAuggie;66273


I still don't quite get where the solar deity/horses connection comes from, since everything I look at seems to be like "well the chariot of Apollo" and I sort of shake my head sadly.


There've been a lot of artifacts that connect the two. Mainly, sun-wheels (which are not a Roman invention) plus horses.  From what I understand, when the horse is over top of the wheel on things such as coins, for example, the meaning is "chariot."  When the wheel is on top of the horse, however, it denotes a solar aspect. (Maybe the sun riding the horse?)

Also, the Romans equated Jupiter with the Celtic sky-god(s).  "Pure" Jupiter (as in, the Roman/classical one, not the name that the Romans slapped onto another culture's god), didn't ride a horse, but there have been artifacts found of the Continental sky-god "Jupiter" (a Celtic god), riding a horse, often trampling a snake-armed figure under the horse's hooves (the triumph of the sky/sun over the earth/underworld).

So, the artifacts that were found that were in the time of the Romans in Gaul/British Isles might have been influenced by the Romans, but weren't Roman... which means that the Apollo thing (Helios had the chariot... right?) doesn't really have to do the Celtic solar aspect.

But, sky god rides horse, horse connected with sun.

The Romans just gave a solid figure to what before might have been a little more amorphous... if that makes sense.
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Aster Breo

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Continental Celtic Deities-- Your Take (and a bit of the Brits, too!)
« Reply #20 on: July 27, 2012, 08:33:05 pm »
Quote from: NibbleKat;66269
I was just reading Miranda Green's "Gods of the Celts" this morning where she was talking about horses being solar deities ...but that's for the Celts.  

Just a word of caution:  They're is some concern about Green's interpretation of solar deities.  The CR FAQ reading list has an explanation ( http://www.paganachd.com/faq/ ).
"The status is not quo."  ~ Dr. Horrible

Aster Breo

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Continental Celtic Deities-- Your Take (and a bit of the Brits, too!)
« Reply #21 on: July 27, 2012, 09:05:57 pm »
Quote from: NibbleKat;66266
I remember you mentioning in another thread something like that about Brigid...

But there is at least mention of her aside from, say, an inscription on a shrine someone built to say, "Joe Smith of the Mountains gives up this offering of his own accord because X deity fulfilled a promise" .  :)

Honestly, not much more than that.  To my knowledge, archeologists haven't found any shrines or worship sites for Brighid.  We *assume* Kildare was linked to the goddess Brighid through the saint, but we don't really know that.  It's just a tidy theory to link the goddess and the saint, and provides a geographical focus for Brighid.

The only mention of Brighid in the surviving ancient lore is in the Cath Maige Tuired, v. 125, where Brighid's son, Ruadan, is killed in battle, and She performs the first keening heard in Ireland.  There's also an intriguing parenthetical at the end of the verse: "This is the same Brighid who invented the whistle for signaling at night."

That's it.  The sum total of info about Brighid from ancient sources.

(Here's a link to a conversation about this on the LJ CR forum several years ago: http://cr-r.livejournal.com/225986.html )

So, yeah, Brighid is currently a very popular goddess, but we don't actually *know* much about Her at all.  Hence my own somewhat UPG-heavy path.

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Celtag

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Re: Continental Celtic Deities-- Your Take (and a bit of the Brits, too!)
« Reply #22 on: July 27, 2012, 09:53:14 pm »
Quote from: Aster Breo;66328
Just a word of caution:  They're is some concern about Green's interpretation of solar deities.  The CR FAQ reading list has an explanation ( http://www.paganachd.com/faq/ ).
Yeah she is very into the whole solar deities thing. Goes a bit far sometimes.
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Aster Breo

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Continental Celtic Deities-- Your Take (and a bit of the Brits, too!)
« Reply #23 on: July 27, 2012, 10:00:58 pm »
Quote from: Aster Breo;66328
They're is some concern

(I need to do a better job of proofreading!  I'm using my phone to post, and my autocorrect is often overzealous... ;) )
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Siannan13

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Re: Continental Celtic Deities-- Your Take (and a bit of the Brits, too!)
« Reply #24 on: July 29, 2012, 05:30:06 am »
Quote from: NibbleKat;66127
Unlike the Irish Celts, for example, many of the Romano-British/Brythonic and Gallic/Eastern European Celtic deities have very, very little information about them.

living in France, I am interested in Gallic deities.
But I don't really worship them, because I find I don't manage to know them well enough.
However I have some though, may say a prayer or give an offreing when I am on a place sacred to one of thoses Deities.
I believe many continental deities where mostly local, such as Sequana related to the Seine river, Nerios, a water deity whose cult was found in a town named after him, Arduinna, known in an area called Ardennes...

Quote from: NibbleKat;66127
How does the Roman occupation of these areas affect (or does it?) how you see/interact with your deities?
I think the Roman occupation is both a chance for us - since their habit of stone depiction spread in gaul, and allow us to get some cult remains, and very confusing since they renamed many deities with roman names.
Many Gallic deities are represented wearing roman style garments.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2012, 05:31:20 am by Siannan13 »

NibbleKat

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Re: Continental Celtic Deities-- Your Take (and a bit of the Brits, too!)
« Reply #25 on: July 29, 2012, 07:18:14 pm »
Quote from: Aster Breo;66328
Just a word of caution:  They're is some concern about Green's interpretation of solar deities.  The CR FAQ reading list has an explanation ( http://www.paganachd.com/faq/ ).

am on husband's kindle now..not a lot of net access.  does that page say why they feel green's ideas on solar deities is "outmoded and non celtic"?  would like to know their sources to read them too!  (no true net access until am at work. poo. )
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NibbleKat

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Re: Continental Celtic Deities-- Your Take (and a bit of the Brits, too!)
« Reply #26 on: July 29, 2012, 07:23:17 pm »
Quote from: Siannan13;66481
living in France, I am interested in Gallic deities.
But I don't really worship them, because I find I don't manage to know them well enough.
However I have some though, may say a prayer or give an offreing when I am on a place sacred to one of thoses Deities.
I believe many continental deities where mostly local, such as Sequana related to the Seine river, Nerios, a water deity whose cult was found in a town named after him, Arduinna, known in an area called Ardennes...


I think the Roman occupation is both a chance for us - since their habit of stone depiction spread in gaul, and allow us to get some cult remains, and very confusing since they renamed many deities with roman names.
Many Gallic deities are represented wearing roman style garments.

 
have you been to the musee de dijon? excuse my bad french.  if so did yousee the statue of sequana? or do you have/canyou get photos?
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Siannan13

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Re: Continental Celtic Deities-- Your Take (and a bit of the Brits, too!)
« Reply #27 on: July 30, 2012, 02:46:55 am »
Quote from: NibbleKat;66564
have you been to the musee de dijon? excuse my bad french.  if so did yousee the statue of sequana? or do you have/canyou get photos?

 
I've never been to Dijon museum. But there are many nice photos online :
http://penhook.org/sequana2.htm
http://journeyingtothegoddess.wordpress.com/2012/04/06/goddess-sequana/

Aster Breo

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Continental Celtic Deities-- Your Take (and a bit of the Brits, too!)
« Reply #28 on: July 30, 2012, 06:02:00 am »
Quote from: NibbleKat;66563
am on husband's kindle now..not a lot of net access.  does that page say why they feel green's ideas on solar deities is "outmoded and non celtic"?  would like to know their sources to read them too!  (no true net access until am at work. poo. )

There's a little more about her interpretations of some of the myths and her lack of knowledge of Celtic languages.  Here's the direct link to the page with the explanation, if that helps:  http://www.paganachd.com/faq/qualrec.html#green
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NibbleKat

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Re: Continental Celtic Deities-- Your Take (and a bit of the Brits, too!)
« Reply #29 on: July 30, 2012, 11:40:55 am »
Quote from: Siannan13;66602
I've never been to Dijon museum. But there are many nice photos online :
http://penhook.org/sequana2.htm
http://journeyingtothegoddess.wordpress.com/2012/04/06/goddess-sequana/

 
*jaw drops* In all of my online searching, I am not sure how I missed those-- I've NEVER seen her face up close like that! Thank you SO much for those links! I'm saving them.
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