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Author Topic: Change and deity  (Read 1386 times)

PerditaPickle

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Re: Change and deity
« Reply #15 on: November 11, 2019, 01:03:18 pm »
As I see it, love changed you, you didn't change love. Love gave you your personal growth, you didn't alter love. In my opinion.

Then we agree that there is change involved with love which isn't entropy, it seems?

ETA a bit
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arete

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Re: Change and deity
« Reply #16 on: November 12, 2019, 08:02:39 am »
Then we agree that there is change involved with love which isn't entropy, it seems?

ETA a bit
Yes, there is change. But we are changed by love, love stays the same. The entropy affects us. In my opinion :)

Anon100

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Re: Change and deity
« Reply #17 on: November 12, 2019, 11:42:38 am »
Yes, there is change. But we are changed by love, love stays the same. The entropy affects us. In my opinion :)

Ah. Thank you Arete. Now I understand how you're seeing this :) . May I ask if this means, for you, that any deities attributed to such a nature/concept would remain static or that they are 'banner bearers' of the concept and thus change as we do?

Anon100

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Re: Change and deity
« Reply #18 on: November 12, 2019, 11:45:49 am »
My spirituality is slightly more complex and I can't get into it using this tiny keypad of my mobile phone, but I'll try and remember to come back later on and expand on this some more.

I look forward to reading it Perdita :)

PerditaPickle

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Re: Change and deity
« Reply #19 on: November 12, 2019, 02:51:22 pm »
Yes, there is change. But we are changed by love, love stays the same. The entropy affects us. In my opinion :)

I'm think I'm having difficulty keeping these concepts straight in my mind in this discussion - your earlier post in this thread included the comment 'if you notice change in love that's not evolution but entropy talking', but if I'm interpreting correctly then your most recent post seems to be saying that the entropy only affects us - us mortals, I'm assuming?

But I'm unsure how the concept of love can remain unchanged whilst simultaneously effecting change within us?  I would argue that this is not the case.

I also happen to disagree that love has remained unchanged since the beginning of time, too (an earlier post in this thread, still) - if you think of cavemen and the qualities which would've prompted those peoples to choose their mates, then think of all the different forms and expressions of love which exist today (for example, asexual couples, intellectual relationships - even how we think of family, as a lot of modern western folk apparently think of their friendship group as more their family than their actual blood family).  I personally feel that the change which exists in love is self-evident if looked at this way.

But I do also see that you posted you use 'love' as an example, and I am someone who struggles quite a bit with abstracts - I'm not actually sure, therefore, whether I'd get on any better with a different example other than love.
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Anon100

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Re: Change and deity
« Reply #20 on: November 12, 2019, 03:57:19 pm »
I'm think I'm having difficulty keeping these concepts straight in my mind in this discussion - your earlier post in this thread included the comment 'if you notice change in love that's not evolution but entropy talking', but if I'm interpreting correctly then your most recent post seems to be saying that the entropy only affects us - us mortals, I'm assuming?

But I'm unsure how the concept of love can remain unchanged whilst simultaneously effecting change within us?  I would argue that this is not the case.

I also happen to disagree that love has remained unchanged since the beginning of time, too (an earlier post in this thread, still) - if you think of cavemen and the qualities which would've prompted those peoples to choose their mates, then think of all the different forms and expressions of love which exist today (for example, asexual couples, intellectual relationships - even how we think of family, as a lot of modern western folk apparently think of their friendship group as more their family than their actual blood family).  I personally feel that the change which exists in love is self-evident if looked at this way.

Hmm., added thought which your comment just brought up in my head Perdita -

Did these concepts all begin with us humans? If they did then they are a construct of our thoughts and that would affect how they do or don't change. If not then that must mean they have domain over the whole animal/plant kingdom ( well I know crows and octupi are known to be intelligent so..? )
« Last Edit: November 12, 2019, 03:59:09 pm by Anon100 »

arete

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Re: Change and deity
« Reply #21 on: November 13, 2019, 03:49:42 am »
Ah. Thank you Arete. Now I understand how you're seeing this :) . May I ask if this means, for you, that any deities attributed to such a nature/concept would remain static or that they are 'banner bearers' of the concept and thus change as we do?
In my understanding, deities are eternal, their soul is eternal, if they change, they change at their own will. If Gods want to change, they change.

arete

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Re: Change and deity
« Reply #22 on: November 13, 2019, 07:01:41 am »
I'm think I'm having difficulty keeping these concepts straight in my mind in this discussion - your earlier post in this thread included the comment 'if you notice change in love that's not evolution but entropy talking', but if I'm interpreting correctly then your most recent post seems to be saying that the entropy only affects us - us mortals, I'm assuming?

But I'm unsure how the concept of love can remain unchanged whilst simultaneously effecting change within us?  I would argue that this is not the case.

I also happen to disagree that love has remained unchanged since the beginning of time, too (an earlier post in this thread, still) - if you think of cavemen and the qualities which would've prompted those peoples to choose their mates, then think of all the different forms and expressions of love which exist today (for example, asexual couples, intellectual relationships - even how we think of family, as a lot of modern western folk apparently think of their friendship group as more their family than their actual blood family).  I personally feel that the change which exists in love is self-evident if looked at this way.

But I do also see that you posted you use 'love' as an example, and I am someone who struggles quite a bit with abstracts - I'm not actually sure, therefore, whether I'd get on any better with a different example other than love.
How can we change love??? I don't understand. The only thing we can change is our attitude. We feel drawn to sth (love) and we adjust our attitude, no???

PerditaPickle

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Re: Change and deity
« Reply #23 on: November 13, 2019, 03:49:21 pm »
How can we change love??? I don't understand. The only thing we can change is our attitude. We feel drawn to sth (love) and we adjust our attitude, no???

Hm,  I think we're both struggling to understand where this discussion's been going to, so perhaps this is a bit of a non-starter.  At least at the moment.

Let's each go pick some other threads to interact with, what do you say?  :)

Edit to correct typo
« Last Edit: November 13, 2019, 03:51:17 pm by PerditaPickle »
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Sefiru

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Re: Change and deity
« Reply #24 on: November 13, 2019, 07:55:08 pm »
How can we change love??? I don't understand.

I think this comes down to a difference in world views. You believe (if I'm reading you right) that abstract concepts don't change, only the physical world does; similar to Platonic Ideals.

(Also, the idea of an entity remaining unchanged while effecting change is *straight* out of Plato. It's all done with magnets  ;) )

On the other hand, I've said before that Plato can kiss my heinie. I don't even believe that Love (or Evil, or Hope or whatever) is a single entity; it's a category of human behaviors and experiences, whose boundaries are also defined by human minds. If people's experience, expression and labeling of 'love' change, then Love will, of course, also change.

Shorter version:
Plato would say the idea of Love came first, and all real-world instances of it came after (and are cheap copies). Arete seems to be going with this view.
I would say that real-world behaviors and experiences came first, people decided some of them belonged in the same category and called it 'love'.

Not to mention, I'm not even sure we're all using 'love' to mean the same thing here, and that can cause so much confusion. And this word in particular is tricky, because it has so many different and vaguely-defined areas of meaning.

arete

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Re: Change and deity
« Reply #25 on: November 14, 2019, 05:54:00 am »
Hm,  I think we're both struggling to understand where this discussion's been going to, so perhaps this is a bit of a non-starter.  At least at the moment.

Let's each go pick some other threads to interact with, what do you say?  :)

Edit to correct typo
Ok! :)

arete

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Re: Change and deity
« Reply #26 on: November 14, 2019, 05:56:01 am »
I think this comes down to a difference in world views. You believe (if I'm reading you right) that abstract concepts don't change, only the physical world does; similar to Platonic Ideals.

(Also, the idea of an entity remaining unchanged while effecting change is *straight* out of Plato. It's all done with magnets  ;) )

On the other hand, I've said before that Plato can kiss my heinie. I don't even believe that Love (or Evil, or Hope or whatever) is a single entity; it's a category of human behaviors and experiences, whose boundaries are also defined by human minds. If people's experience, expression and labeling of 'love' change, then Love will, of course, also change.

Shorter version:
Plato would say the idea of Love came first, and all real-world instances of it came after (and are cheap copies). Arete seems to be going with this view.
I would say that real-world behaviors and experiences came first, people decided some of them belonged in the same category and called it 'love'.

Not to mention, I'm not even sure we're all using 'love' to mean the same thing here, and that can cause so much confusion. And this word in particular is tricky, because it has so many different and vaguely-defined areas of meaning.
Ah! Not many people accept Plato, I guess! I'm a minority!  ;)

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Re: Change and deity
« Reply #27 on: November 15, 2019, 08:08:04 pm »
We feel drawn to sth (love) and....

A Reminder:
Hi, arete,

Just a quick note: please use a normal writing style, and avoid 'textspeak'. Not everyone is familiar with the abbreviations used in texting (Jenett, Darkhawk, and I all were uncertain about 'sth', though we all guessed 'something' as the most likely meaning!), and it's required by our rules (in point #3 of 'The "Do" Rules' section).

This isn't a formal warning, just a reminder. No reply is necessary, but if you have questions or need clarification, please feel free to contact a member of staff privately.

Thanks!
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