A wild UPG appears! (Sulis and water deities in general)

[Tana]

Sigh.  More research.  Thanks a lot, Tana.

My Amazon cart already has 300 books in it.

You're welcome.
I think you can get most of the info online, tho'.

[Sage]

I personally see a strong connection here, due to the fact that the tribe that worshiped Brigantia (the Brigantes) had a large colony in Leinster, center of later Brighid lore. However, I think Brigantia was distinctly more martial due to her role as their tribal goddess.

 
I've seen Brighid as a bit martial if only due to Her sons' death on the battlefield and Her connection to the first keening, which is specifically for those fallen in battle. I had no idea Brigantia was related to Her own tribe, though! I need a good intro to the history of the British Isles...

[Nyktipolos]

This is interesting.  I think of Brighid as BOTH the stars and the vastness between the stars.

And I can get that. (Maybe not 'grok' it, but I get it. ) I have my own UPG which stemmed from a lot of out conversations that led to a very strong image, for me, of LotS being in a very psychopompic role of guiding people in the dark. And I think the only way one can navigate safely in the dark (even if they bring in light) is to know and be of the dark, too.

So, like I said, very muddy waters. :p Cailleach ended up not being in such a strong focus, even though initially I was very certain I would be on "her" side in the beginning.

(I could conjecture that this LotS feels very much stellar to me, very moveable. I do not get the same "feels" from Cailleach... or "Cailleach". The latter screams of ancestry, of sovereignty, of the moving of the earth and the creation of things within it. They may very well be the same thing, and I just have trouble connecting Cailleach TO LotS. Or maybe I have everything ass-backwards and this will require some time for me to suss out. The one thing I have never wavered on, however, is that Brighid is somehow connected to LotS. )

But I have no idea where I am *now*. I suspect that will require more... something. I dunno.

I feel like I should have more to say about this, but I don't right now.  :ashamed:

Don't worry about it. I feel much the same way. I'm not sure how to speak about a lot of these things, if only because I feel so *unsure* about what it is I'm really thinking about?

And...  Is it just me, or is this conversation starting to feel like the early LotS conversations?

 
Mmmmmaybe. But I'm also tired, and participating just to make sure people don't think I'm ignoring them at the moment. It's hard to feel "connected" at the moment. But don't think I'm saying it's not! It very well might be!

[Sage]

I think Brigantia might be *connected* to Brighid.  But I don't think they're the same entity, like (I believe) Brighid and Sulis are.

If that makes any sense...

 
It does. Brighid and Sulis might be "Exalted Sun Goddess", only one is called "Exalted" and the other "Sun" (not exactly, but I think you get my line of reasoning) whereas Brighid and Brigantia might be two goddesses who both were called "Exalted" by their peoples. If I follow what you're saying.

[Aster Breo]

I've seen Brighid as a bit martial if only due to Her sons' death on the battlefield and Her connection to the first keening, which is specifically for those fallen in battle.

I think Brighid has a strong protective, tutelary, and social justice aspect -- and I think that can manifest as a battle goddess when absolutely necessary.  But I don't see Her as *"martial"* precisely.  But that might be picking minuscule nits...

[Aster Breo]

It does. Brighid and Sulis might be "Exalted Sun Goddess", only one is called "Exalted" and the other "Sun" (not exactly, but I think you get my line of reasoning) whereas Brighid and Brigantia might be two goddesses who both were called "Exalted" by their peoples. If I follow what you're saying.

Yes, and I think Brighid and Brigantia might also be "close cousins", so to speak.

[Gilbride]

I sort of feel like each of these goddesses is another "face" or aspect or facet of one single being, but I also, simultaneously feel that they are separate, independent beings.  I'm beginning to suspect that there is some way for both of those things to be equally true.  And possibly ALSO equally false.

Yes! We need much more of this type of flexible thinking in pagan theology.

[Sage]

I think Brighid has a strong protective, tutelary, and social justice aspect -- and I think that can manifest as a battle goddess when absolutely necessary.  But I don't see Her as *"martial"* precisely.  But that might be picking minuscule nits...

 
Hmm... it may be seeing things from different angles. From a modern perspective (maybe not an ancient one - though I really can't speak for how those in the past thought of Brighid) I might make a distinction between martial and warlike. And I see some connection again with Athena (protection, tutelary, defensive warfare, taking care of the home/family/polis).

Then again, a lot of the Tuatha De Danann come across as martial in some way to me, so keep your salt shakers handy.

[Gilbride]

Yes, and I think Brighid and Brigantia might also be "close cousins", so to speak.

 
I can see that. It's hard to see them as identical, because Brigantia feels so severe compared to Brighid.

[Sage]

Yes! We need much more of this type of flexible thinking in pagan theology.

 
Polyvalent logic! All the cool kids are doing it!

[Juni]

And I can get that. (Maybe not 'grok' it, but I get it. )

 
That's basically where I've been sitting every time the LotS stuff comes up. I have some UPG that has a lot of similarities, but doesn't quite line up, so I hang out in the peanut gallery watching for flying light bulbs.

[Aster Breo]

Hmm... it may be seeing things from different angles. From a modern perspective (maybe not an ancient one - though I really can't speak for how those in the past thought of Brighid) I might make a distinction between martial and warlike.

Can you expand on the difference between "martial" and "warlike"?

Then again, a lot of the Tuatha De Danann come across as martial in some way to me, so keep your salt shakers handy.

Maybe because most of them are so... warlike?  

[Sage]

Can you expand on the difference between "martial" and "warlike"?

In my mind, "martial" is more nuanced. Someone who's martial is a peacekeeper, which can work on multiple levels, not just battle. I think of martial arts and the discipline and study needed to perfect one's craft or art, and I think that the primary reason of a martial person is to be protective. Whereas I parse "warlike" as more.. brutish? War and violence and aggression for its own sake, or solely to do with physical wars on a physical battlefield.

I kinda feel like I just pulled that out of my butt, though. Feel free to poke at it.

Maybe because most of them are so... warlike?  

 
It's true!

[River at Night]

I sort of feel like each of these goddesses is another "face" or aspect or facet of one single being, but I also, simultaneously feel that they are separate, independent beings. I'm beginning to suspect that there is some way for both of those things to be equally true. And possibly ALSO equally false.

I'm not quite caught up with this conversation yet — it keeps getting longer as I read — but while I'm a hard polytheist, I feel like this comment is really important and True (with a capital T!) if that makes any sense.

I definitely feel like all of the gods and goddesses — and not just Western ones — are independent beings with clear personalities, roles, etc. But I also get the sense that they grew into that, and that somewhere distantly back in time, they were often "sparks from the same forge" if that makes sense. From my own experience, the Greek/Roman split illustrates this a lot; I definitely get the (UPG) sense that Athena and Minerva are separate deities, but they almost definitely began as the same being. I think maybe a lot of "Indo-European" religions and pantheons may have started the same way — with deities splitting into different personas, and then those personas growing to become entirely different beings. Maybe even beyond just the I-E pantheons. But it's so far back, that we don't have a record of it?

But at the same time, I feel like this idea is only partially true, or maybe not at all true, and there's much, much more beyond that that we as human beings are missing because of our own limitations, if that makes any sense whatsoever.

Sorry, I'm rambling a lot with this. And I should probably continue reading the thread anyway; maybe you all have already brought most of this up.

[Juni]

I sort of feel like each of these goddesses is another "face" or aspect or facet of one single being, but I also, simultaneously feel that they are separate, independent beings.  I'm beginning to suspect that there is some way for both of those things to be equally true.  And possibly ALSO equally false.

 
I think constellations is exactly the word for this... conception, I guess. Every deity is their own star, potentially their own solar system, and depending where we're standing in the universe, they might connect or overlap, or might not touch at all. But if you stand in just the right spot, you can see a constellation, a pattern appear. I think if one is standing in just the right spot, a larger constellation made of smaller ones might appear- maybe that's the LotS phenomenon in itself? Catching glimpses of a picture we're in?