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Author Topic: A poor defense of Deity conflation  (Read 10823 times)

Aster Breo

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Re: A poor defense of Deity conflation
« Reply #15 on: April 09, 2018, 04:18:57 am »



Although I've been increasingly intrigued by the idea of Gods appearing in different roles and guises in different cultures, I agree that direct statements of Y = X should be done with utmost care, and in most cases it is best to avoid them. I think to some extent, deities must have some air of mystery about them, and as beings fundamentally incomprehensible to humans, I think we miss something when we try to organize and classify them too carefully.

I'm curious about people's thoughts regarding gender and deity syncretism. That is, if a Being presents as a goddess in one culture, would that Being always present as a goddess in other cultures? Or could a Being be a goddess in one culture and a god in another?

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Re: A poor defense of Deity conflation
« Reply #16 on: April 09, 2018, 11:20:00 am »

I'm curious about people's thoughts regarding gender and deity syncretism. That is, if a Being presents as a goddess in one culture, would that Being always present as a goddess in other cultures? Or could a Being be a goddess in one culture and a god in another?

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Re: A poor defense of Deity conflation
« Reply #17 on: April 09, 2018, 02:01:21 pm »
I'm curious about people's thoughts regarding gender and deity syncretism. That is, if a Being presents as a goddess in one culture, would that Being always present as a goddess in other cultures? Or could a Being be a goddess in one culture and a god in another?

I think it's yet another factor to take into account when figuring out how much hyperdimensional pie overlap there is.  Also, from what I can tell some pieces of pie tend to be more genderfluid than others - creators, particularly primordial ones, are sometimes multigendered even in culture of origin, so if one wants to munge them together, welp, that's a thing.  Tricksters and shapeshifters often shift sex - though there are notable ones that explicitly do not; IIRC Aset is explicitly noted to shapeshift only into female forms in a bit of the Contendings, which suggests that femaleness in some form is an intrinsic trait of Her demesne.  What that means, a bit more complicated, neh?

I tend to view syncretisms a lot like resonant frequencies - you get a certain number of tones and overtones in play and yeah, there's a thing there.  But that only holds on that particular note, from that particular angle or line of sight.  (So maybe I also think of them like optical illusions.  Or magic eye puzzles.  You look at it just right, and there's the sailboat!)  But I've also said that in my experience a lot of the gods behave like sitcom teenage girls rummaging through each other's closets and borrowing each other's clothes all the time anyway....
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Re: A poor defense of Deity conflation
« Reply #18 on: April 09, 2018, 07:13:24 pm »

I'm curious about people's thoughts regarding gender and deity syncretism. That is, if a Being presents as a goddess in one culture, would that Being always present as a goddess in other cultures? Or could a Being be a goddess in one culture and a god in another?

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I've been trying to move away from the use of gender as a way to see similarities between deities. It is my personal belief (not intended to disparage those who disagree) that "gender" is only really a meaningful concept when discussing organisms that reproduce sexually. I don't think deities really have a gender as I do not view them as biological organisms.

However, I think deities are perceived through the lens of the culture they are interacting with, so if a certain role or specialization is heavily gendered in a culture, the deity concerned with such an area may be perceived as having that gender. Given that in most cultures war is seen as more of a male sphere of activity, I do not find it surprising when Gods concerned with war are perceived as male (though there are numerous, numerous exceptions to this - Athena, Morrigan, Freya, etc.).

Ultimately though, I think the perception of a deities gender is more indicative of the culture perceiving them than the deity itself. Its interesting, in my experience, how hard it is to shake this type of thinking - it took me a long time to admit to myself that Freyr's closest counterpart in Hellenic polytheism may well be Demeter, for example. Ultimately, I think the increased questioning of the validity and value of traditional gender roles may allow us a means of perceiving deities that is, in some ways, beneficial because it allows us to see how our deities are "greater" than the anthropomorphized cultural understandings of them.
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Re: A poor defense of Deity conflation
« Reply #19 on: April 10, 2018, 03:31:08 pm »
I've been trying to move away from the use of gender as a way to see similarities between deities. It is my personal belief (not intended to disparage those who disagree) that "gender" is only really a meaningful concept when discussing organisms that reproduce sexually. I don't think deities really have a gender as I do not view them as biological organisms.

I'd agree that gender alone is a pretty meager basis to make comparisons between deities.

That said, I do think that many gods have distinct (if not necessarily fixed!) gender identities that are complicated parts of their nature, and it's worth examining them. In the process, though, it's best not to assume these identities will resemble the binary categories that much of human society obsesses over. For me, the way my gods interact with gender is a key part of their character. Dionysos embodies transgressive masculinity pretty strongly for me, for example, and as a result I'd hesitate to syncretize him with either most purely female deities* or many male gods with more straightforward masculine presentations.

On the other hand, the goddess Hekate that I know has a looser association with gender, presenting herself more as a kind of liminal guiding witch-spirit whose relationship to femaleness is almost abstract. (Other people perceive her as a Great Mother type, though.) So I have less of a problem mapping her onto Anubis, or the spirit of David Bowie for that matter.

* Although some syncretism of Dionysos and female deities, especially in the Near East/Asia Minor, is attested.
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Re: A poor defense of Deity conflation
« Reply #20 on: April 12, 2018, 03:07:21 pm »
I'd agree that gender alone is a pretty meager basis to make comparisons between deities.

That said, I do think that many gods have distinct (if not necessarily fixed!) gender identities that are complicated parts of their nature, and it's worth examining them. In the process, though, it's best not to assume these identities will resemble the binary categories that much of human society obsesses over. For me, the way my gods interact with gender is a key part of their character. Dionysos embodies transgressive masculinity pretty strongly for me, for example, and as a result I'd hesitate to syncretize him with either most purely female deities* or many male gods with more straightforward masculine presentations.

On the other hand, the goddess Hekate that I know has a looser association with gender, presenting herself more as a kind of liminal guiding witch-spirit whose relationship to femaleness is almost abstract. (Other people perceive her as a Great Mother type, though.) So I have less of a problem mapping her onto Anubis, or the spirit of David Bowie for that matter.

* Although some syncretism of Dionysos and female deities, especially in the Near East/Asia Minor, is attested.

I have a similar experience with some deities in the sense that my perception of their "gender" is an important way of how I view them. I would have quite a hard time perceiving Frige or Freya as "masculine" for example. And, as you mentioned, in other cases, my perception of deities relationship with a particular gender can be far more flexible, or even non-existent. With Sunna, Mani, and Nott for example, though I do tend to have some perception of gender it is very loose, and I would never really perceive, say Sunna as being "female" in the same way I perceive Frige.

That being said, I do try to personally avoid saying "Frige is a woman" because I don't think she is really quite the same thing as a biological organism that identifies as female - I think it is more my perception of her, and the gendered associations we have with her areas of influence. I don't think it's wrong to have this perception though - the degree to which deities share characteristics (such as gender) with humans is difficult to discern and individuals may have vastly different experiences with the same being.
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Re: A poor defense of Deity conflation
« Reply #21 on: April 20, 2018, 12:09:43 pm »
If one accepts that some deities may be known in a variety of forms in different cultures and also that the nature of such relationships are ultimately unknowable, the practical effects in one’s personal practice may be quite small. Whether I think Odin is distinct from every other mentioned deity or if he has counterparts in other cultures, my relational activities will focus on his stories, iconography, etc. rather than those of any deities I suspect may be related to him. However, for me, I find it satisfying to think that the deities I worship may also have engaged in relationships with people of other cultures, and what is personally more important for me, is that this view feels right in an intuitive way.


I would like to restate that the idea all named deities are separate beings is not something I am opposed to or wish to criticize. I have just found that with time and experience, my intuition about the nature of Deities has been moving in another direction, and I wished to articulate a defense of this idea – to assert that it is not an inherently idiotic or morally problematic viewpoint.

My approach to this is rather simple really. I figure the best question for me to ask is: who am I to identify or pigeonhole the identity of the Gods? I don't really know "who" they are. I don't even really know "what" they are. I'm only a mortal so it would be foolish of me to say whether identifying cross-cultural deities as the same/conflated Gods is correct or not.

I worship my Gods in the aspect that seems to fit best for me and that seems the most logical. However, that doesn't mean that they couldn't/wouldn't take other forms in others places. (In fact, it seems awfully likely they WOULD considering how often the old Gods disguised themselves for one reason or another.)

I know this isn't a good source material and it isn't something I live by, but I actually like how Rick Riordan did this sort of thing in the "Heroes of Olympus" follow-up series to the Percy Jackson novels. If you haven't read them I won't spoil them, but he has an interesting take on how the Greek Gods behave in their Roman "aspects" and vice versa.

It's interesting to contemplate, though. I always figure that there isn't a straight conversion from one God to another God from another culture, I think if conflation is accurate it is more likely that multiple deities have been merged or mish-mashed together in the other culture. Odin and Thor both have traits that could also be ascribed to Zeus, for example.

Just my two cents.
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Re: A poor defense of Deity conflation
« Reply #22 on: April 20, 2018, 05:35:45 pm »
It's interesting to contemplate, though. I always figure that there isn't a straight conversion from one God to another God from another culture, I think if conflation is accurate it is more likely that multiple deities have been merged or mish-mashed together in the other culture. Odin and Thor both have traits that could also be ascribed to Zeus, for example.

Just tossing out an idea, here...it HAS been several thousand years since the interactions where your/our source knowledge was generated; is it possible that you are, knowingly or not, working with succeeding generations/associates? When you reach out to "Thor", is it possible that you are actually connecting with Son of Thor, or even Niece of Thor? I'm not saying that the original is out of the picture entirely, being immortal, but is it possible that he's saying in so many words, "I'll coach and give ideas, but my niece really needs the experience and she's got the skill set to help you out. Why don't you let her handle your account for the time being?"
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Re: A poor defense of Deity conflation
« Reply #23 on: April 20, 2018, 06:16:23 pm »
My approach to this is rather simple really. I figure the best question for me to ask is: who am I to identify or pigeonhole the identity of the Gods? I don't really know "who" they are. I don't even really know "what" they are. I'm only a mortal so it would be foolish of me to say whether identifying cross-cultural deities as the same/conflated Gods is correct or not.

I worship my Gods in the aspect that seems to fit best for me and that seems the most logical. However, that doesn't mean that they couldn't/wouldn't take other forms in others places. (In fact, it seems awfully likely they WOULD considering how often the old Gods disguised themselves for one reason or another.)

I know this isn't a good source material and it isn't something I live by, but I actually like how Rick Riordan did this sort of thing in the "Heroes of Olympus" follow-up series to the Percy Jackson novels. If you haven't read them I won't spoil them, but he has an interesting take on how the Greek Gods behave in their Roman "aspects" and vice versa.

It's interesting to contemplate, though. I always figure that there isn't a straight conversion from one God to another God from another culture, I think if conflation is accurate it is more likely that multiple deities have been merged or mish-mashed together in the other culture. Odin and Thor both have traits that could also be ascribed to Zeus, for example.

Just my two cents.

Too some extent, I feel that an acceptance of a lack of knowledge of the "true" nature of a deity's identify is beneficial for any worshiper of the Gods whether they suspect a shared identity between some deities or not. Because our mental faculties are just not capable of "truly" perceiving the nature of the Gods, we must become comfortable with the mysteries inherent in the nature of the divine. To try and reduce deities to a fully comprehensible models for humans means limiting them to a point that leaves out so much of what they are. In a sense, I think it is more beneficial to sense the Gods through the emotions rather than to try and understand them through the intellect.
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Re: A poor defense of Deity conflation
« Reply #24 on: May 30, 2018, 04:01:17 am »
snip
I am (mostly) a Roman reconstructionist pagan, and I do adopt some of the Roman ideas of syncretism. I do think certain deities are "just" known by different names to different people. But I break from Classical tradition in that I think this is definitely the exception rather than the rule. The main gods I think of in this way are Zeus/Jupiter, Hermes/Mercury, Brigid/Brigantia, and Lugh/Llew/Lugus. All for different reasons, though mostly based on linguistic scholarship (the Hermes/Mercury thing is UPG, though).
But I don't think that the dozens of Celtic or Germanic gods that the Romans described as reflections of Mercury are truly that at all; I think of those as mostly independent, often very regional, deities who were unfortunately subject to Roman cultural imperialism. I don't think that, say, Woden is just another face of Mercury.

On the other hand, we had a rather spirited discussion about this on one of the Religio Romana boards I'm a member of. And the consensus seemed to be that "Jupiter" is not so much a specific god as a numen or spiritual presence of a particular kind of god, like a political office. The different gods that fill this role don't necessarily share an identity or personality or even myths, but they do share a set of responsibilities and powers. So perhaps Jove, Zeus, and Taranis are all different gods while still sharing in a certain energy or spirit of their role; an energy that the Romans would have called "Jupiter" because that's their baseline for understanding it.

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Re: A poor defense of Deity conflation
« Reply #25 on: May 30, 2018, 11:14:26 am »
On the other hand, we had a rather spirited discussion about this on one of the Religio Romana boards I'm a member of. And the consensus seemed to be that "Jupiter" is not so much a specific god as a numen or spiritual presence of a particular kind of god, like a political office. The different gods that fill this role don't necessarily share an identity or personality or even myths, but they do share a set of responsibilities and powers. So perhaps Jove, Zeus, and Taranis are all different gods while still sharing in a certain energy or spirit of their role; an energy that the Romans would have called "Jupiter" because that's their baseline for understanding it.

As I understand things, this is definitely part of it. A large basis for my theology was provided by a book called Masks of the Spirit, which delved pretty deeply into the multitudinous and fluid nature of certain gods. For many major deities, they are not who they are until they don the appropriate 'mask', 'paraphernalia', or 'mantle of office', for example. Their symbols, colors, accessories, garb, etc., are what makes them them. The same is true for humans, really - strip someone of their things, home, loved ones, job, and the resultant person hardly resembles the full, vibrant, and healthy individual that they used to be. In this way, though, goodhood is just a job title, and who, exactly, is occupying that position may or may not be of much importance to us.

The gods in my experience are also multitudinous. That is, many of them are comprised of constituent individuals, personalities, etc. Many of my gods are supposed to come in fours, for example - though I haven't personally experienced such highly ordered facets likely because I lack deeper cultural context, but I do currently serve a pair of twins; gods who are individuals, but who only ever operate as a single unit. I address them both out of respect, but there is no ever worshiping or petitioning one and not the other - or, fro that matter, expecting to hear from them as individuals either. They speak and act in unison.

These two are a particularly interesting look at the fluidity of gods, and the nature of identity - for about 4 years I thought that they were actually a different pair of twins. I called them by those other names, I used their imagery and icons, I came up with prayers based on this false assumption. In the end, though, it all worked out anyways. They answered to these other names, the relationship we built was tremendously powerful and a lot of work got done. After spending a year in focused dedication to them at the expense of all my other spiritual obligations, I learned that they were not, in fact, who they'd been saying they were. (It was another year before they revealed their names to me, but that's besides the point.)

So this is a good, contemporary, real-time example of divinities impersonating others; or, taking up the mantle of office, if you will, for the purpose of accomplishing something under the purview of that title. It's also a kind of syncretism, as I still don't know exactly where these two have actually come from, but they found it appropriate enough to align themselves with another pair of gods who looked and functioned similarly.

At the end of the day I've really stopped asking too many questions like this, stopped trying to suss out the 'nature' of the powers, and go with what I've experienced and what the myths tell me. It's very easy to go from a descriptive mode of thinking with this to a prescriptive one, which in my experience, makes it just that much harder to actually hear and interact with them in a meaningful way.
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Re: A poor defense of Deity conflation
« Reply #26 on: May 31, 2018, 10:42:29 pm »
I am (mostly) a Roman reconstructionist pagan, and I do adopt some of the Roman ideas of syncretism. I do think certain deities are "just" known by different names to different people. But I break from Classical tradition in that I think this is definitely the exception rather than the rule. The main gods I think of in this way are Zeus/Jupiter, Hermes/Mercury, Brigid/Brigantia, and Lugh/Llew/Lugus. All for different reasons, though mostly based on linguistic scholarship (the Hermes/Mercury thing is UPG, though).
But I don't think that the dozens of Celtic or Germanic gods that the Romans described as reflections of Mercury are truly that at all; I think of those as mostly independent, often very regional, deities who were unfortunately subject to Roman cultural imperialism. I don't think that, say, Woden is just another face of Mercury.

I'm not inherently opposed to the idea that there could, possibly, be a relatively small number of deities who appear in very different ways in different cultures. I can understand the Roman tendency to see their deities in other cultures, but I ultimately don't find many of their associations convincing. I think your mention of Odin/Mercury is a good example of this - I don't really see much overlap in these deities apart from some vaguely defined roles as a psychopomp and, perhaps, a hat? I generally find the more complex a deity is, the less likely I am to see them as overlapping with a deity from another culture. Conversely, when a deity is quite strongly identified with a particular natural phenomenon, without a significant amount of other perceived traits, I am more comfortable with syncretism. For example, I don't have any problem seeing Hemera and Dagr as the same deity in different cultural contexts.

That being said, I do think that understanding deities from one culture can help us "flesh out" a relationship with a deity from another one. I find myself doing this quite frequently, especially by studying classical Roman and Hellenic deities to see if that can help me perceive the Germanic Deities in a more complex way, especially considering that we have more knowledge about the classical deities.

For example, though I think that Freyr and Dionysus are distinct deities, I could see Freyr's associations with the "bounty of the earth", "abundance" and "prosperity" (Snorri) as possibly suggesting that he could function as a God who could have some, shall we say, "Dionysian" aspects. I personally associate Freyr with joy, celebration, and the beverages which can facilitate that. In that sense, though I think Freyr and Dionysus are distinct, I think there is a bit of Dionysus in Freyr.

On the other hand, we had a rather spirited discussion about this on one of the Religio Romana boards I'm a member of. And the consensus seemed to be that "Jupiter" is not so much a specific god as a numen or spiritual presence of a particular kind of god, like a political office. The different gods that fill this role don't necessarily share an identity or personality or even myths, but they do share a set of responsibilities and powers. So perhaps Jove, Zeus, and Taranis are all different gods while still sharing in a certain energy or spirit of their role; an energy that the Romans would have called "Jupiter" because that's their baseline for understanding it.

This post, and keen's post below are awesome, and I hope to respond to these ideas shortly, but the NBA Finals are on. I'll be back!

{Edited to repair a tiny typo with potentially large effects - SP]
« Last Edit: June 01, 2018, 01:11:40 am by SunflowerP »
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Re: A poor defense of Deity conflation
« Reply #27 on: June 01, 2018, 12:30:54 am »

On the other hand, we had a rather spirited discussion about this on one of the Religio Romana boards I'm a member of. And the consensus seemed to be that "Jupiter" is not so much a specific god as a numen or spiritual presence of a particular kind of god, like a political office. The different gods that fill this role don't necessarily share an identity or personality or even myths, but they do share a set of responsibilities and powers. So perhaps Jove, Zeus, and Taranis are all different gods while still sharing in a certain energy or spirit of their role; an energy that the Romans would have called "Jupiter" because that's their baseline for understanding it.

....and JR Smith needs to pay attention to the scoreboard.

Anyway, I was really intrigued when reading this section of your post. I've always had some difficulty with the relationship between deity and locality - if the Gods are truly these gigantic foundation of reality type beings, then shouldn't they appear in many different cultures under different guises? And if they are more localized, can their worship really be transferred from one locality to another?

The idea that pantheons as humans understand them are a collection of roles that can be filled by a number of deities does allow some way out of this conundrum; cultures take their understandings of what deities do with them and the deities of a particular region may agree to "play the role" so to speak. The first I ever heard of this idea was from an old Asatru Lore thread;

http://www.asatrulore.org/index.php?page=Thread&threadID=8741

...and I'm fascinated that a similar idea came up in the context of Roman polytheism. You wouldn't happen to have a link to the discussion you mentioned would you? I would be very interested in seeing what is said in it.
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Re: A poor defense of Deity conflation
« Reply #28 on: June 01, 2018, 12:44:06 am »
As I understand things, this is definitely part of it. A large basis for my theology was provided by a book called Masks of the Spirit, which delved pretty deeply into the multitudinous and fluid nature of certain gods. For many major deities, they are not who they are until they don the appropriate 'mask', 'paraphernalia', or 'mantle of office', for example. Their symbols, colors, accessories, garb, etc., are what makes them them. The same is true for humans, really - strip someone of their things, home, loved ones, job, and the resultant person hardly resembles the full, vibrant, and healthy individual that they used to be. In this way, though, goodhood is just a job title, and who, exactly, is occupying that position may or may not be of much importance to us.

The gods in my experience are also multitudinous. That is, many of them are comprised of constituent individuals, personalities, etc. Many of my gods are supposed to come in fours, for example - though I haven't personally experienced such highly ordered facets likely because I lack deeper cultural context, but I do currently serve a pair of twins; gods who are individuals, but who only ever operate as a single unit. I address them both out of respect, but there is no ever worshiping or petitioning one and not the other - or, fro that matter, expecting to hear from them as individuals either. They speak and act in unison.

These two are a particularly interesting look at the fluidity of gods, and the nature of identity - for about 4 years I thought that they were actually a different pair of twins. I called them by those other names, I used their imagery and icons, I came up with prayers based on this false assumption. In the end, though, it all worked out anyways. They answered to these other names, the relationship we built was tremendously powerful and a lot of work got done. After spending a year in focused dedication to them at the expense of all my other spiritual obligations, I learned that they were not, in fact, who they'd been saying they were. (It was another year before they revealed their names to me, but that's besides the point.)

So this is a good, contemporary, real-time example of divinities impersonating others; or, taking up the mantle of office, if you will, for the purpose of accomplishing something under the purview of that title. It's also a kind of syncretism, as I still don't know exactly where these two have actually come from, but they found it appropriate enough to align themselves with another pair of gods who looked and functioned similarly.

I've found that I increasingly see something similar to this in my experience with deities. For me, this idea was sparked by the following article;

https://larhusfyrnsida.com/2016/10/13/binaman-a-distinctly-fyrnsidere-approach-to-divinity/

...from which I take the idea that the Deities epithets (or Beinamen for us Germanically-inclined folk) can represent distinct personalities contained within a Deity, and perhaps even closely related deities who, as in your experience with the twins, always appear together. These days I often pray to a specific aspect of a particular Deity and I have found this has greatly enriched my relationships.

(Oh, by the way, was the book you mentioned above the following one?)
https://www.amazon.ca/Masks-Spirit-Image-Metaphor-Mesoamerica/dp/0520086546

At the end of the day I've really stopped asking too many questions like this, stopped trying to suss out the 'nature' of the powers, and go with what I've experienced and what the myths tell me. It's very easy to go from a descriptive mode of thinking with this to a prescriptive one, which in my experience, makes it just that much harder to actually hear and interact with them in a meaningful way.

Yeah, I think you're right in that one shouldn't let philosophy and theology get in the way of actually experiencing the Deities, and such questions can become a distraction. Yet at the same time, I feel a bout of old-fashioned theological speculation can help cultivate relationships with Deities as long as one doesn't, you know, focus on the finger.

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Re: A poor defense of Deity conflation
« Reply #29 on: June 01, 2018, 12:54:10 am »
I'm not inherently opposed to the idea that there could, possibly, be a relatively small number of deities who appear in very different ways in different cultures. I can understand the Roma tendency ...

Ahem, that was meant to be "Roman". Not trying to make generalizations about the religious practices of the Roma culture.
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