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Author Topic: A poor defense of Deity conflation  (Read 10825 times)

Megatherium

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A poor defense of Deity conflation
« on: March 23, 2018, 04:23:39 pm »
Since I have become interested in modern Paganism and Heathenry, I have been fascinated by the issue of the relationship between deities of different pantheons. Generally, when this topic comes up, I find most people I have spoken to online adhere to a view that all deities from all cultures are distinct individuals. My purpose in writing this post is NOT to dispute that such an idea is a reasonable or practical way to be a modern Western polytheist. However, I would like to offer a brief argument asserting that the conflation of deities from different cultures is not an inherently philosophically or morally problematic approach.


I believe the rather poor reputation of cross-cultural deity conflation derives from the way in which it has often been done rather than the idea being problematic in and of itself. I view this issues as similar to some of the criticisms of “eclectic” polytheism – it can be hard to do well, it can be easy to do poorly, but is not an inherently inappropriate approach.

Two very valid criticisms of deity conflation are related to imperialism and what I will term simplistic conflation. Imperialism, in the way I am using it here, refers to the tendency to see one culture's deities as subservient to another culture's. As an example, some Greek and Roman polytheists would identify deities from outside of their cultural regions as “really” being  Zeus, Mars etc. with of course the Greek or Roman understanding of the deity being the more accurate and true version. I think the problems with this approach are fairly clear – it is inherently dismissive of other cultures and speaks more to feelings of superiority and group identification than it does to any real attempt at a theological reconciliation between pantheons.


Secondly, there are numerous examples of simplistic conflation. Often this takes the form of “Deity X is associated with Y, so deity Z, who is also associated with Y is clearly the same being.” The problem with this is that it simplifies deities to a single or small number of characteristics and presumes such characteristics define the deity. For example, while I don’t it is inherently ridiculous to think that, for example, Zeus and Thor are the same deity, I think it would be a form of hubris to assert that this is an obviously true fact and/or that those who do not agree with such a conflation are clearly misguided.


I am writing this post because the idea that there are deities who are known in different ways in many cultures is intuitively satisfying to me. However, I believe that in order to do so in a way that is not disrespectful one must abandon the idea that the “true” nature of the deities can be known. I am not going to be able to sit down with a list of pantheons and discern what the “real” 12 or 36 or whatever number of Gods there “really” are. Since this idea presumes that deities can have vastly different roles and relationships in different cultures, it makes it practically impossible for humans to use those roles to determine if two or more deities are, in fact, a singular being. Accepting that deity’s identities are inherently unknowable also, I think, guards to some extent against the Imperialism and simplistic conflation I mentioned earlier.


If one accepts that some deities may be known in a variety of forms in different cultures and also that the nature of such relationships are ultimately unknowable, the practical effects in one’s personal practice may be quite small. Whether I think Odin is distinct from every other mentioned deity or if he has counterparts in other cultures, my relational activities will focus on his stories, iconography, etc. rather than those of any deities I suspect may be related to him. However, for me, I find it satisfying to think that the deities I worship may also have engaged in relationships with people of other cultures, and what is personally more important for me, is that this view feels right in an intuitive way.


I would like to restate that the idea all named deities are separate beings is not something I am opposed to or wish to criticize. I have just found that with time and experience, my intuition about the nature of Deities has been moving in another direction, and I wished to articulate a defense of this idea – to assert that it is not an inherently idiotic or morally problematic viewpoint.
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Re: A poor defense of Deity conflation
« Reply #1 on: March 24, 2018, 10:58:57 am »
I have just found that with time and experience, my intuition about the nature of Deities has been moving in another direction, and I wished to articulate a defense of this idea – to assert that it is not an inherently idiotic or morally problematic viewpoint.

I would add to this a bit:

My experience is that the gods have very complicated modes of identity.  Some of that is that, coming from a Kemetic perspective, I'm very familiar with gods who are individuals at some times, and at other times identify, assimilate, and syncretise with other gods within the same pantheon and become each other, thereby producing a third entity distinct from the component gods.

It's a lot like color mixing sometimes.  Possibly color mixing of light where weird shit happens like mixing green and red light and coming out with yellow.

My experience is that gods are like that with gods in other pantheons, too.  More stably with the more historical neighbors, perhaps, or maybe it's just that that has enough backing that my intellectual reactions are also satisfied with it.  (But I suspect, also, that adjacent regions are more likely to have environments that shape gods in similar directions, producing more easily resonating divine Fourier transforms.)

And of course there's the artistic styles slider I wrote about in The Art of Being a God (Pagan Bloggers column), where the reconstructionist envisioning of deity tends towards the Neoclassical and Romantic, where religious witchcraft gets more Impressionistic or Post-Impressionistic.  It's a lot easier to syncretise with the more modern-artistic visions of the gods, I think.
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Megatherium

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Re: A poor defense of Deity conflation
« Reply #2 on: March 24, 2018, 12:21:21 pm »
I would add to this a bit:

My experience is that the gods have very complicated modes of identity.  Some of that is that, coming from a Kemetic perspective, I'm very familiar with gods who are individuals at some times, and at other times identify, assimilate, and syncretise with other gods within the same pantheon and become each other, thereby producing a third entity distinct from the component gods.

It's a lot like color mixing sometimes.  Possibly color mixing of light where weird shit happens like mixing green and red light and coming out with yellow.

My experience is that gods are like that with gods in other pantheons, too.  More stably with the more historical neighbors, perhaps, or maybe it's just that that has enough backing that my intellectual reactions are also satisfied with it.  (But I suspect, also, that adjacent regions are more likely to have environments that shape gods in similar directions, producing more easily resonating divine Fourier transforms.)

And of course there's the artistic styles slider I wrote about in The Art of Being a God (Pagan Bloggers column), where the reconstructionist envisioning of deity tends towards the Neoclassical and Romantic, where religious witchcraft gets more Impressionistic or Post-Impressionistic.  It's a lot easier to syncretise with the more modern-artistic visions of the gods, I think.

As you mentioned regarding deities in the Kemetic tradition, there seems to be the idea, in some cultures at least, that the identity of deities is, for lack of a better word, somewhat “fluid” – Deities can be viewed in syncretic forms with one another, and, in some cases, individuals aspects of deities (thinking of the variety of epithets in Hellenic religion) may almost appear to be individual beings in and of themselves. Given the relatively widespread nature of this way of viewing deities, I do not think it is terribly problematic to at least potentially accept a more fluid viewpoint of Germanic deities.

Of course there is a further motivation for this viewpoint in Germanic and I suspect, other temperate European-derived modern polytheistic traditions. The lack of written material by actual practitioners means that in many cases, the role of a deity may require a level of reimagining which may not be necessary in better documented traditions. The Eddic source material is already likely highly influenced by Classical concepts of divinity, making the modern concepts of those deities are likely already somewhat syncretized with classical divinities.

http://www.academia.edu/20384683/Pantheon_What_Pantheon

In addition to the modern process, Germanic deities may well have been influenced by Roman deities and theologies in historical times – there are some suggestions that part of the way Thor is conceptualized is influenced by the Roman cults of Hercules and Jupiter.

https://badfrankishheathenry.tumblr.com/post/164050680311/thunor-thor-hercules-jupiter

Ultimately though, some syncretisation may be necessary for modern Heathens due to the lack of source material. I was partly inspired to write this post due to a series of posts like this one:

https://sundorwic.wordpress.com/2018/03/09/wada-uncovering-an-anglo-saxon-water-god/

…in which modern Anglo-Saxon Heathens use comparative studies of deities as a way to “flesh out” how to relate to the often very poorly recorded deities in Anglo-Saxon Heathenry. I find myself doing this as well; my concepts of Frige are to some extent influenced by Hestia and Brigid, and my ideas of Skadi are influenced by Artemis, etc.

http://www.koshabq.org/2012/12/30/skadi-building-on-the-old-foundations/

I find this process to be especially strong with deities who are strongly identified with a particular natural phenomenon; I find it difficult to actually conceive of Mani and Selene, or Sunna and Helios as completely separate beings.

A final piece of the puzzle as far as making this concept of fluid/syncretic ideas palpable to me is from Edward P Butler, who though quite a supporter of what may be termed “hard polytheism”, did articulate what I find to be an interesting perspective on this;

https://henadology.files.wordpress.com/2016/11/wp32-butler-pp3538-version-2.pdf

…if deities are such complex, powerful, and ultimately unknowable beings they may well “contain” one another in some ways (look, I don’t really understand the article…) meaning that, for example, Eostre may well have a strong element of Aurora and Eos within her, even if one does view all deities as completely separate individuals.

In conclusion, I am ultimately increasingly convinced by the idea that the Gods are beings of such scale and power that they are fully capable of beings understood and related to in a wide variety of ways, with identities which can shift dramatically depending on the perspective one views them from.

I greatly appreciate the article on the viewpoint of deities in different traditions and their relation to artistic styles – I think the nature of deities is so complex we require a wide variety of ways of viewing them to make our relations with them more meaningful and fulfilling.
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drgong

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Re: A poor defense of Deity conflation
« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2018, 10:33:43 pm »
I would like to restate that the idea all named deities are separate beings is not something I am opposed to or wish to criticize. I have just found that with time and experience, my intuition about the nature of Deities has been moving in another direction, and I wished to articulate a defense of this idea – to assert that it is not an inherently idiotic or morally problematic viewpoint.

I do not think it a idiotic viewpoint - it is highly useful up to a point. 

Many times semi-related cultures will have common themes and archetypes, and thus deities do fit common archetypes.

But unless there has been cultural syncretism, I think it is not wise to correlate various gods that fit the same archetype.   

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Re: A poor defense of Deity conflation
« Reply #4 on: April 05, 2018, 07:09:43 pm »


I do not think it a idiotic viewpoint - it is highly useful up to a point. 

Many times semi-related cultures will have common themes and archetypes, and thus deities do fit common archetypes.

But unless there has been cultural syncretism, I think it is not wise to correlate various gods that fit the same archetype.

What is the difference between ancient people practicing syncretism and modern people doing the same that makes one less "wise" than the other?

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Megatherium

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Re: A poor defense of Deity conflation
« Reply #5 on: April 06, 2018, 04:57:12 pm »
I do not think it a idiotic viewpoint - it is highly useful up to a point. 

Many times semi-related cultures will have common themes and archetypes, and thus deities do fit common archetypes.

But unless there has been cultural syncretism, I think it is not wise to correlate various gods that fit the same archetype.

I think that viewing deities from different cultures as distinct and separate is an absolutely reasonable position, and in addition, is likely to be a good "default" setting - in other words, don't start by assuming deities should be conflated.

However, I do think that there is some room for modern syncretism if it is done with a high level of effort and research. For example, there is some identification of various deities with Brigid in the following article;

https://clannbhride.wordpress.com/articles-and-essays/aeusos-the-dawn-fire/

...and it is clear that there is a deep understanding of the deities being addressed and exhaustive research happening in this situation. Again, I think modern syncretism is possible if it is done with the requisite care and attention to detail. Like many things, syncretism can be done is a shallow way, but I don't think that makes the whole process verboten - it just means that if a person is interested in such a perspective, there will be a large amount of work required to so in a respectful manner.
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Re: A poor defense of Deity conflation
« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2018, 01:57:35 am »


I think that viewing deities from different cultures as distinct and separate is an absolutely reasonable position, and in addition, is likely to be a good "default" setting - in other words, don't start by assuming deities should be conflated.

However, I do think that there is some room for modern syncretism if it is done with a high level of effort and research. For example, there is some identification of various deities with Brigid in the following article;

https://clannbhride.wordpress.com/articles-and-essays/aeusos-the-dawn-fire/

...and it is clear that there is a deep understanding of the deities being addressed and exhaustive research happening in this situation.

Thanks for linking to Clann Bhride! Some Clann Bhride members, including the other founders and I, do believe certain deities are linked.

One possibility is that the deity we call Brighid was/is known to different groups of people by different names. For example, in addition to the essay linked in the previous post, I think Sulis and Brighid might be the same Being, known by different names in different places. This idea is based on the known similarities between the two goddesses' attributes (e.g., both sun goddesses, both linked to health, both linked to healing water, both linked to justice) and known rituals associated with them (e.g., both are believed to have had perpetual flames kept in their honor).

Another possibility is that certain deities are linked through their attributes and/or areas of influence in "constellations", so to speak. So, Brighid, as a sun goddess, might be linked to other sun deities. The more shared attributes, the closer the link.

Note that I'm NOT saying that "all goddesses are one goddess" or anything like that.  Personally, I believe some deities are linked and others aren't. And that deity identity is probably a very complex thing that, as a human, I can't completely understand.

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Re: A poor defense of Deity conflation
« Reply #7 on: April 08, 2018, 06:48:55 am »

What is the difference between ancient people practicing syncretism and modern people doing the same that makes one less "wise" than the other?

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Well, there is always the issue of noise. We have access to so much information today. But there is the ... temptation, to just grab gods superficially and impulsively throw them into a Pantheon. People of the past had the same failings we do. But at least they had to deal with only a few new gods at a time, instead of going on a wiki walk and trying to guess who Izanagi is.

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Re: A poor defense of Deity conflation
« Reply #8 on: April 08, 2018, 07:09:54 am »


Well, there is always the issue of noise. We have access to so much information today. But there is the ... temptation, to just grab gods superficially and impulsively throw them into a Pantheon. People of the past had the same failings we do. But at least they had to deal with only a few new gods at a time, instead of going on a wiki walk and trying to guess who Izanagi is.

I think we agree that people can do syncretism badly regardless of how much information they have available but more information certainly can increase the temptation. On the other hand, more information also helps differentiate and better understand how, say, Izanami is not Ereshkigal is not Hel. We're tending away from the monomyth instead of toward it, because we have more information.

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Re: A poor defense of Deity conflation
« Reply #9 on: April 08, 2018, 01:03:11 pm »

Thanks for linking to Clann Bhride! Some Clann Bhride members, including the other founders and I, do believe certain deities are linked.

One possibility is that the deity we call Brighid was/is known to different groups of people by different names. For example, in addition to the essay linked in the previous post, I think Sulis and Brighid might be the same Being, known by different names in different places. This idea is based on the known similarities between the two goddesses' attributes (e.g., both sun goddesses, both linked to health, both linked to healing water, both linked to justice) and known rituals associated with them (e.g., both are believed to have had perpetual flames kept in their honor).

Another possibility is that certain deities are linked through their attributes and/or areas of influence in "constellations", so to speak. So, Brighid, as a sun goddess, might be linked to other sun deities. The more shared attributes, the closer the link.

Note that I'm NOT saying that "all goddesses are one goddess" or anything like that.  Personally, I believe some deities are linked and others aren't. And that deity identity is probably a very complex thing that, as a human, I can't completely understand.

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Thank you for providing such well-researched and thought out writings on the Clann Bhride web page! Some of the articles on there were instrumental in convincing me that deity conflation could be approached in a respectful and coherent manner. Absolutely one of the best web sites dedicated to a particular deity I have seen.
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Re: A poor defense of Deity conflation
« Reply #10 on: April 08, 2018, 02:00:42 pm »
Another possibility is that certain deities are linked through their attributes and/or areas of influence in "constellations", so to speak. So, Brighid, as a sun goddess, might be linked to other sun deities. The more shared attributes, the closer the link.

I have commented in the past that a pantheon is kind of like a hyperdimensional pie.

Some slices containing a given bit (say, the sun) have a lot of the same pie in them; others don't.
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Re: A poor defense of Deity conflation
« Reply #11 on: April 08, 2018, 02:09:26 pm »
Thank you for providing such well-researched and thought out writings on the Clann Bhride web page! Some of the articles on there were instrumental in convincing me that deity conflation could be approached in a respectful and coherent manner. Absolutely one of the best web sites dedicated to a particular deity I have seen.
Thank you!!! I really appreciate that and will share your comments with the other authors.

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Re: A poor defense of Deity conflation
« Reply #12 on: April 08, 2018, 05:36:14 pm »
I would like to restate that the idea all named deities are separate beings is not something I am opposed to or wish to criticize. I have just found that with time and experience, my intuition about the nature of Deities has been moving in another direction, and I wished to articulate a defense of this idea – to assert that it is not an inherently idiotic or morally problematic viewpoint.

I don't think it's inherently idiotic or problematic at all to explore the way different Powers may share aspects or even join to become one. However, I would say that reducing it to "Deity X is Deity Y" is simplistic most of the time. (There are occasional cases where, yes, it's a reasonable conclusion, as with some of the overlap between Greek and Roman pantheons.)

Rather, I prefer to acknowledge that syncretized deities are similar to but not the same as the original deities that were mashed up to make them.

For instance, one of my Powers as of yet has not settled on a name; he is a rough syncretization of Zeus, Typhon, and Set, among a few other figures from the region. I know what his characteristics are, but I hesitate to give him the name of any one known god given how many figures I've used to compose him.
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Re: A poor defense of Deity conflation
« Reply #13 on: April 08, 2018, 08:39:26 pm »
I don't think it's inherently idiotic or problematic at all to explore the way different Powers may share aspects or even join to become one. However, I would say that reducing it to "Deity X is Deity Y" is simplistic most of the time. (There are occasional cases where, yes, it's a reasonable conclusion, as with some of the overlap between Greek and Roman pantheons.)

Rather, I prefer to acknowledge that syncretized deities are similar to but not the same as the original deities that were mashed up to make them.

For instance, one of my Powers as of yet has not settled on a name; he is a rough syncretization of Zeus, Typhon, and Set, among a few other figures from the region. I know what his characteristics are, but I hesitate to give him the name of any one known god given how many figures I've used to compose him.

Although I've been increasingly intrigued by the idea of Gods appearing in different roles and guises in different cultures, I agree that direct statements of Y = X should be done with utmost care, and in most cases it is best to avoid them. I think to some extent, deities must have some air of mystery about them, as beings fundamentally incomprehensible to humans, I think we miss something when we try to organize and classify them to carefully. It is almost as if they are something that is best seen through peripheral vision, or th
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Megatherium

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Re: A poor defense of Deity conflation
« Reply #14 on: April 08, 2018, 08:53:27 pm »
Although I've been increasingly intrigued by the idea of Gods appearing in different roles and guises in different cultures, I agree that direct statements of Y = X should be done with utmost care, and in most cases it is best to avoid them. I think to some extent, deities must have some air of mystery about them, as beings fundamentally incomprehensible to humans, I think we miss something when we try to organize and classify them to carefully. It is almost as if they are something that is best seen through peripheral vision, or th
(whoops, accidentally hit the post button early, post continued below...)

I don't think it's inherently idiotic or problematic at all to explore the way different Powers may share aspects or even join to become one. However, I would say that reducing it to "Deity X is Deity Y" is simplistic most of the time. (There are occasional cases where, yes, it's a reasonable conclusion, as with some of the overlap between Greek and Roman pantheons.)

Rather, I prefer to acknowledge that syncretized deities are similar to but not the same as the original deities that were mashed up to make them.

For instance, one of my Powers as of yet has not settled on a name; he is a rough syncretization of Zeus, Typhon, and Set, among a few other figures from the region. I know what his characteristics are, but I hesitate to give him the name of any one known god given how many figures I've used to compose him.

Although I've been increasingly intrigued by the idea of Gods appearing in different roles and guises in different cultures, I agree that direct statements of Y = X should be done with utmost care, and in most cases it is best to avoid them. I think to some extent, deities must have some air of mystery about them, and as beings fundamentally incomprehensible to humans, I think we miss something when we try to organize and classify them too carefully. I'm reminded of those 3D posters where your eyes have to unfocus to see them, or Bruce Lee telling a student not to be distracted by the finger pointing at the moon.

As you mentioned, however, there are some situations where I feel far more confident making X is Y  statements, and I think the conflation of Greek and Roman deities is an excellent, though not quite a perfect example of this. I also feel reasonably confident thinking of Thor/Thunor/Donar as the same being, so within a cultural/linguistic area, I am more confident conflating deities with related names and functions. The other area is, as I mentioned above, deities associated with specific, fairly universal natural phenomenon (especially if such deities are not associated with many other attributes beyond their primary one).

At this point, I pretty explicitly link Dagr and Hemera, Sunna and Helios, Mani and Selene, and Nott and Nyx. However, even here there is some room for caution. I believe in later periods Helios became strongly associated with Apollo, and at that point, I would say this is a very different solar deity than the one I worship. As another example, there are some pretty negative associations the Greeks has with Nyx - the mother of pain and distress, for example - which I do not associate with my own concept of the Goddess of the Night.

Edit: Hit a post button, didn't mean to, came back to finish.
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