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Author Topic: 3 Questions for Hard Polytheism  (Read 5786 times)

Sophia C

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Re: 3 Questions for Hard Polytheism
« Reply #45 on: September 27, 2013, 12:47:47 pm »
Quote from: Louisvillian;123378
I can perhaps shed some light here: Odin and his continental variations Woden and Wotan are thought by scholars now to have originated in Celtic tribes that interacted with the Germanic peoples nearby in the century before the Roman conquest of Gaul.


How interesting - do you have a source? I'd like to research that further.
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Nyktipolos

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Re: 3 Questions for Hard Polytheism
« Reply #46 on: September 27, 2013, 01:01:41 pm »
Quote from: Louisvillian;123378
Do mind, the Greek myths make a distinction between Kronos and Khronos. The former is the Titan king and father of the Zeus and his siblings. The latter is the god of time.

 
There was apparently some confusion in late ancient Greek history between the two, and some people did believe they were the same, but it was definitely a minority view and the blending of the two didn't properly come until Renaissance times.

But, yes: What Louisvillian said.
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Lykeios Lysios

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3 Questions for Hard Polytheism
« Reply #47 on: September 27, 2013, 04:30:55 pm »
Quote from: Nyktipolos;123397
There was apparently some confusion in late ancient Greek history between the two, and some people did believe they were the same, but it was definitely a minority view and the blending of the two didn't properly come until Renaissance times.

But, yes: What Louisvillian said.

I thought that was the case. Its less far-fetched than Apollon and Helios being merged later in Hellenic history, the names being so similar with Kronos and Khronos.
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Viv

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Re: 3 Questions for Hard Polytheism
« Reply #48 on: September 28, 2013, 01:40:38 am »
Quote from: Louisvillian;123378
I can perhaps shed some light here: Odin and his continental variations Woden and Wotan are thought by scholars now to have originated in Celtic tribes that interacted with the Germanic peoples nearby in the century before the Roman conquest of Gaul.


I don't know how reliable it may be but I just began reading Buckland's Book of Saxon Witchcraft. Buckland asserts that Woden was worshiped by the Saxons, one of several tribes (Angles and Jutes included) that migrated from Northern Gaul to the islands of Britain to avoid the influence of the Romans and the Franks. The Saxons worshiped Woden, Thunor, Tiw, and Frig and in the first few decades of their time in Britan.

Buckland seems to believe, based on his research and that of others, that the Saxon's Woden and the Viking's Odin, don't have very much in common. Evidently Odin was more of a warrior and Woden was more of a caretaker.

But as I said, I don't know the reliability of the author (nope, I haven't read "the big blue book," yet) and I have just started reading this book. I also do not know much about Norse mythology and if it is substantially different from Saxon mythology. Just thought I'd share what I've read so far because it might give some food for thought, if anyone wants to research the info further.

If Buckland's info is wrong, I figure the more experienced and well read/educated Cauldronites will be able to provide more accurate info and we will all learn something. I love learning...which is why I spend way too much on books and college course, LOL :)
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Lykeios Lysios

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3 Questions for Hard Polytheism
« Reply #49 on: September 28, 2013, 07:53:04 am »
Quote from: Louisvillian;123378
Frankly, it's hard to make 1-to-1 comparisons because Germanic mythology reflected a different culture from the Mediterranean. Just to talk about Zeus--he's not just the sky-god, but the god of law and order, and kingship, and the home. Germanic culture had a sky-god, Thor; but Tyr has the aspects of law-giver and kingly power.

I think its quite possible that the deities were split and their attributes distributed amongst multiple deities in another culture. That the attributes themselves are (essentially) universal is what is really interesting in cultures that had not come into contact with one another.
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Re: 3 Questions for Hard Polytheism
« Reply #50 on: September 28, 2013, 11:16:43 am »
Quote from: Lykeios Lysios;123445
That the attributes themselves are (essentially) universal is what is really interesting in cultures that had not come into contact with one another.

 
There is a universe out there operating under consistent physical laws, and being observed by a species with consistent psychobiological wiring.  That species is going to observe a consistent set of properties in reality, because same species, same reality.
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Lykeios Lysios

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3 Questions for Hard Polytheism
« Reply #51 on: September 28, 2013, 04:57:51 pm »
Quote from: Darkhawk;123457
There is a universe out there operating under consistent physical laws, and being observed by a species with consistent psychobiological wiring.  That species is going to observe a consistent set of properties in reality, because same species, same reality.

Of course! I still think its quite fascinating.
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Re: 3 Questions for Hard Polytheism
« Reply #52 on: September 29, 2013, 12:48:04 am »
Quote from: windshadow;123432
But as I said, I don't know the reliability of the author (nope, I haven't read "the big blue book," yet) and I have just started reading this book.
Buckland's usually reliable for contemporary stuff, but sometimes he parrots incorrect historical information from other writers without really thinking about it. I think he's better about it nowadays, but back 30 or 40 years ago he wasn't as on-the-ball with it. Most of his most well-known stuff was written in the 1970s and 1980s, so it sometimes has weird historical inaccuracies.
As far as I know, Woden and Odin were identical figures whose presence in Germanic polytheism pre-date the Migration Period, with practically the same attributes.

Quote from: Naomi J;123395
How interesting - do you have a source? I'd like to research that further.
I'll try to track it down. But I do remember that the proposals had something to do with certain tribes of mixed Celtic-Germanic culture, like the Chatti; as well as the characteristics of Odin matching more with what we know about Celtic gods.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2013, 12:52:31 am by Louisvillian »

Viv

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Re: 3 Questions for Hard Polytheism
« Reply #53 on: September 29, 2013, 01:12:09 pm »
Quote from: Louisvillian;123524
Buckland's usually reliable for contemporary stuff, but sometimes he parrots incorrect historical information from other writers without really thinking about it. I think he's better about it nowadays, but back 30 or 40 years ago he wasn't as on-the-ball with it. Most of his most well-known stuff was written in the 1970s and 1980s, so it sometimes has weird historical inaccuracies.
As far as I know, Woden and Odin were identical figures whose presence in Germanic polytheism pre-date the Migration Period, with practically the same attributes.


Thanks for that info, Louisvillian. I really appreciate it. His book on Saxon witchcraft was written in 2005 but I just came across it days ago through my library in ebook form. Frankly, I have a lot to learn when it comes to Norse mythology, which means I will be doing a lot more reading of various writer's works. Hopefully my library has more to offer on the subject. Again, thanks for the info on Buckland and Odin/Woden. I will keep it in mind.
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Re: 3 Questions for Hard Polytheism
« Reply #54 on: October 02, 2013, 05:55:28 am »
Quote from: windshadow;123575
His book on Saxon witchcraft was written in 2005....

 
No, that's the publication date on the 30th anniversary edition (says so right in the link you give). I'd have sworn The Tree (its original title) came out earlier than 1975 (off the top of my head, I'd have said '73), but I can't find my copy quickly to doublecheck. Doesn't make a lot of difference, though; it's from the early-to-mid-'70s and is no more historically reliable than most other neoPagan books of that time period (which is to say, not reliable at all).

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Re: 3 Questions for Hard Polytheism
« Reply #55 on: October 02, 2013, 06:01:06 am »
Quote from: Louisvillian;123524
I'll try to track it down. But I do remember that the proposals had something to do with certain tribes of mixed Celtic-Germanic culture, like the Chatti; as well as the characteristics of Odin matching more with what we know about Celtic gods.

 
Just a reminder about this, because I'd be interested in those sources too.

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Re: 3 Questions for Hard Polytheism
« Reply #56 on: October 05, 2013, 09:43:32 pm »
Quote from: SunflowerP;123878
I'd have sworn The Tree (its original title) came out earlier than 1975

Looking it up, it says it came out in 1974, and was reprinted in 1978 and 2005.
And frankly, some of the historical misinformation and New Age woo-woo stuff still persisted throughout his writings in the decade or two after. His "Big Blue Book" came in 1986 and still had that kinda crap.

Oh, and I still can't find the original sources for the Celtic connection for Woden. All I could scrounge up was a bit about it on wiki, though it references some authors, one of whom I think is Ludwig Rübekeil--whoever that is:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wodanaz#Celtic_parallels

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