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Author Topic: 3 Questions for Hard Polytheism  (Read 5785 times)

TheHumanAxiom

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Re: 3 Questions for Hard Polytheism
« Reply #30 on: September 06, 2013, 05:01:34 am »
Quote from: Darkhawk;120990
Ah, that is perhaps the core of dispute, then:  I am a hard agnostic.  I believe that the nature of the gods is both unknown and unknowable.  I cannot make religious decisions that would depend on knowledge that I believe to be fundamentally unattainable; if that knowledge is in some way significant or necessary, then religious practice becomes entirely impossible.


Is there anything about the nature of the gods that you believe is knowable? Or aspects of their nature that you had to come to a working hypothesis about in order to practice (whether or not you could know for certain)? (Or in other words, what knowledge do you believe is significant or necessary to practice, that you do see as attainable?)

I guess I see the question of hard polytheism and soft polytheism as one example of asking "what is the nature of deity?" On the one hand, as a soft agnostic, I agree we can never absolutely know the answer to that question. For all we know, there is some way of existing that is between soft/archetypal manifestations and hard/distinct entities that we could never describe or understand given our existence and perspective as human mortals on earth.

At the same time, similar to what Matty was saying, I see it as a critical question for my practice - something I need to at least attempt to answer for myself. For instance, if I am a soft polytheist, I might call on Thor and Bast together because I believe the energies represented by each will be useful. I'd want to make sure the energies they each represent don't conflict with each other, but you could argue that the history (if any) between the Norse peoples and the Egyptian/Kemetic peoples would be almost entirely irrelevant to their existence as transcendent archetypal energies/subsets of a universal energy. In contrast, if I am a hard polytheist, I might have very strong ideas about how Thor and Bast are going to feel about and react to being called into the same space. The history of their peoples as well as their individual quirks are going to come into play when answering that question. At the very least, I might see it as rude to go inviting deities from different pantheons into rituals that are not somewhat congruent with the cultures they came from and the ways they've been historically honored.

As for relationship factors, the possibility for respect/rudeness also seems different between these two conditions. Either way, I'd probably be inviting the deity into a ritual because I respect and value their energy... but I don't really think it makes logical sense (to me, at least) to talk about being rude to an archetype. Maybe I would believe that if I throw a certain type of energy (like dominance) at a certain energetic archetype, then there would be negative consequences... but I would understand that as a function of the type/structure of energy, not that the deity was offended by me being domineering in our interactions. Likewise, I might offer any old deity chocolate because I like chocolate, and it is the energy with which the offering is given that matters more than the content. If they are individual entities though, being rude has a clear meaning and forming a relationship does seem much more personal. Likewise, it might be that a certain deity doesn't care for chocolate, or that another deity loves it extra - how much I like chocolate would not change how it is received as much, because the deity would have their own opinions and feelings about it in a way that is different than with archetypes.

These thought experiments are a big part of coming to a satisfactory working hypothesis for me. If I cannot make any logical sense of hard polytheism, it will be hard to have that kind of foundation supporting my practice. At the same time, I wouldn't want to just go with soft polytheism until convinced otherwise - if hard polytheism is "true" to a greater degree than I would be taking into account, I could end up offending entities with whom I'd like to work, with unknown consequences (burning bridges, or worse!) So figuring out how hard polytheists make sense of their own beliefs - even (and sometimes especially) in these odd or abstract ways/situations - really helps me in deciding what fundamental assumptions will underlie my practice. So in that way, even the most impractical questions often do have a practical result... (Though admittedly, sometimes it is just fun to ask questions ;)).

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3 Questions for Hard Polytheism
« Reply #31 on: September 06, 2013, 05:11:22 am »
Quote from: Jenett;120988
My primary personal deities are almost certainly English in origin. I had a fascinating experience when travelling along the Danube a few years ago, where they just - dropped out of signal. Not their land, not their space, other deity space, they weren't going to get in the way.

That happens to me when I go to Israel. They're still there, but *very* faintly. Whereas, in Ireland, my Irish gods were (of course) very present. I honour local gods too, and their presence is very strong around their locality. My personal opinion is that some gods emerge from the land and are therefore tied it, and some are less strongly 'attached' to the land, and that it depends on where/how widely they've been worshiped as to whether they travel comfortably.
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Re: 3 Questions for Hard Polytheism
« Reply #32 on: September 06, 2013, 08:44:00 am »
Quote from: TheHumanAxiom;121014
Is there anything about the nature of the gods that you believe is knowable? Or aspects of their nature that you had to come to a working hypothesis about in order to practice (whether or not you could know for certain)? (Or in other words, what knowledge do you believe is significant or necessary to practice, that you do see as attainable?)


For basic practice, no knowledge of the gods is necessary; the rituals and practices that are expected within a religious context, and the standards of behaviour for conducting one's life, are what is required.  (And one can evaluate the effectiveness of those rituals without knowledge of the gods: what changes they work in the practitioner, what effects they have upon the world.)

Beyond that, people believe they get communication and information from the gods.  I am one of them, on occasion.  That information may be coming from gods, from inner processes, from a variety of other sources: the model that is most useful to me for organising that information is that it comes from multiple distinct external-to-me sources, individual entities with distinct personalities and preferences, and thus I behave accordingly.  I could be wrong, of course; every so often I check the data I believe that I have against alternate models of organisation to see if my choices would be different.

In general, I figure that people can only operate within the context of the experiences they have and what makes sense and is consistent with those experiences.

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MattyG

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Re: 3 Questions for Hard Polytheism
« Reply #33 on: September 06, 2013, 10:23:13 am »
Quote from: Darkhawk;121032
For basic practice, no knowledge of the gods is necessary;

 
That's fair enough in your own practice, but it seems a little silly to me to then waste your time going around telling people that their own questions "don't matter at all". It's like going on a comic book forum and telling people that it doesn't matter whether Iron Man could beat Batman in a fight. Technically it's unknowable, but the comment somewhat misses the point of the conversation and disrespects those involved. I think that thought exercises are more than just "fun". They exercise critical thinking skills in new and interesting ways. That's just my opinion though. I have a knee-jerk reaction against claims that things "don't matter". As a geek and a student of literature, I've had people telling me that the things that interest me "don't matter" my whole life, generally phrased as an accusation, implicitly claiming that I'm frivolous and stupid for wasting my time on them.

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Re: 3 Questions for Hard Polytheism
« Reply #34 on: September 06, 2013, 11:01:52 am »
Quote from: MattyG;121037
That's fair enough in your own practice, but it seems a little silly to me to then waste your time going around telling people that their own questions "don't matter at all".

 
The OP asked some questions; I responded that those questions do not have relevance to my own understanding of polytheism.  Now you are upset that I took time to answer the OP?

I am very confused.
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Re: 3 Questions for Hard Polytheism
« Reply #35 on: September 06, 2013, 11:15:44 am »
Quote from: Roheon;119266
1) What of Deities of countless different cultures whose associations overlap? What of, say, Thor and Zeus and Taranis? How can they all be considered Gods of thunder? Is it a timeshare situation? How do you know which Deity to associate with any given storm? Is Thor Norse thunder and Zeus Greek thunder? Or is thunder merely something associated with them, and not their "dominion?"


In Waincraft they refer to these "archetypes' as The Powers. I think that there are roles that can be filled and each set of pantheons can fill them. Some do, some don't. In Judeo/Christian it's one for all of them. I think weather happens scientifically not per the gods. Thor and Zeus can manipulate the thunder or storm but most weather is weather here.

Quote from: Roheon;119266
2) Humans are a tiny blip in time on a cosmic scale. What are we to the Deities? A random creature that actually noticed them, and decided to say hi? What about societal Deities? Who was Heru before there were pharaohs? Who was Hestia before the hearth, much less land animals, period?


My view on the gods are there are various systems and galactic ley lines. Geographical features allow these advanced beings to access Earth and those who are able here to access those places on an astral level. That's why most faiths have tress, mountains and even rivers in their myths. They may access lots of worlds or just ours but if you could be a god or felt you could help people in a god like way would you? Maybe they are just using us for power. Don't know but I get something from the relationship and I am sure they do too.

Quote from: Roheon;119266
3) We are also a tiny blip on a cosmic scale. In your theology, are "your" Deities the Gods and Goddesses of all creation, or just our local solar system?


They are the creators in their local solar systems.

MattyG

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Re: 3 Questions for Hard Polytheism
« Reply #36 on: September 06, 2013, 11:49:54 pm »
Quote from: Darkhawk;121043
The OP asked some questions; I responded that those questions do not have relevance to my own understanding of polytheism.  Now you are upset that I took time to answer the OP?

I am very confused.

 
I'd say I'm upset that you didn't qualify your statement. Saying something "doesn't matter at all" is different from saying it "doesn't matter to me." One is a broad, sweeping generality, and the other is a personal opinion. The former seems like an expression of disdain for the conversation as a whole, while the latter seems like a personal expression of disinterest. As I said, I have a history of people using "it doesn't matter" as a criticism of myself and the things I care about. It's simply how I respond to the statement. I know that's probably not what you meant, but I do believe there's a slightly more tactful way of stating it. No offense meant.

MattyG

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Re: 3 Questions for Hard Polytheism
« Reply #37 on: September 06, 2013, 11:53:01 pm »
Quote from: Darkhawk;121043
The OP asked some questions; I responded that those questions do not have relevance to my own understanding of polytheism.  Now you are upset that I took time to answer the OP?

I am very confused.

 
Additionally, an atheist could easily go and post "it doesn't matter" to nearly any thread on the forum, seeing as religion does not matter to them, but most would probably think they were being disrespectful to do so.

Louisvillian

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Re: 3 Questions for Hard Polytheism
« Reply #38 on: September 07, 2013, 02:57:31 am »
Quote from: MattyG;121086
I'd say I'm upset that you didn't qualify your statement. Saying something "doesn't matter at all" is different from saying it "doesn't matter to me."

So what if he thinks it doesn't matter at all? It doesn't stop you or I from thinking that it does. It's silly to get offended or upset because he holds and expresses views that aren't just different, but oppositionalto yours. It's just a part of life.

MattyG

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Re: 3 Questions for Hard Polytheism
« Reply #39 on: September 07, 2013, 02:14:42 pm »
Quote from: Louisvillian;121094
So what if he thinks it doesn't matter at all? It doesn't stop you or I from thinking that it does. It's silly to get offended or upset because he holds and expresses views that aren't just different, but oppositionalto yours. It's just a part of life.

 
Like I've said twice now, it's from my own personal experience of that phrase being used as an attack/insult against people who do care about things. It's how I interpret the phrase being used in general conversation. I don't care if people believe the opposite of myself. I do care when people state those beliefs in a manner I find disrespectful to those involved in the conversation.

"Mattering" is subjective. Saying something "doesn't matter at all" is an objective statement, relating to the nature of the "it" as opposed to your opinion of the "it". Saying "it doesn't matter to me" is a subjective statement. It's simply the more appropriate way of phrasing it. This may seem like nitpicking, but I think words mean something, and when discussing something as personal as religion, it's simply better practice to use more qualifiers than fewer. I understand that Darkhawk was not trying to offend anyone when saying it, and probably intended it to be viewed as a subjective analysis. I was just letting her know that the statement could be viewed in a negative light due to people's personal experiences with the phrase "it doesn't matter" being used in an accusatory manner. That's all.

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Re: 3 Questions for Hard Polytheism
« Reply #40 on: September 07, 2013, 02:39:49 pm »
Quote from: Roheon;119266
I have a few questions regarding views on the Gods and Goddesses. I started out as a soft polytheist but, to my surprise, a few experiences have rapidly been changing that. I'm mostly there, but the "scientific" part of my mind is still restless about a few things.

Hopefully none of these questions are offensive, as they are things I honestly want to know for myself. I'm not doing this to find a pre-packaged answer, but I feel that outside input would be very helpful.

Also forgive me if any of these are repeats. I tried to make sure they aren't. I specifically mentioned hard polytheism, but I would still welcome input from people with other conceptions of divinity.  

1) What of Deities of countless different cultures whose associations overlap? What of, say, Thor and Zeus and Taranis? How can they all be considered Gods of thunder? Is it a timeshare situation? How do you know which Deity to associate with any given storm? Is Thor Norse thunder and Zeus Greek thunder? Or is thunder merely something associated with them, and not their "dominion?"

2) Humans are a tiny blip in time on a cosmic scale. What are we to the Deities? A random creature that actually noticed them, and decided to say hi? What about societal Deities? Who was Heru before there were pharaohs? Who was Hestia before the hearth, much less land animals, period?

3) We are also a tiny blip on a cosmic scale. In your theology, are "your" Deities the Gods and Goddesses of all creation, or just our local solar system?

1) I believe its more of an association than their actual realm. I also believe that their particular powers associates with thunder and sky.

2)I believe the Gods see us as their children in a way, they obviously interact greatly with humans and see us as a purposeful part of their lives, as we see them as part of ours.

3)I know my Gods are part of the universe as a whole, as I believe humans and everything to part of the universe. My deities have several associations and are more than just a box, and more like water.
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Re: 3 Questions for Hard Polytheism
« Reply #41 on: September 14, 2013, 08:27:09 pm »
Quote from: Roheon;119266
1) What of Deities of countless different cultures whose associations overlap? What of, say, Thor and Zeus and Taranis? How can they all be considered Gods of thunder? Is it a timeshare situation? How do you know which Deity to associate with any given storm? Is Thor Norse thunder and Zeus Greek thunder? Or is thunder merely something associated with them, and not their "dominion?"

2) Humans are a tiny blip in time on a cosmic scale. What are we to the Deities? A random creature that actually noticed them, and decided to say hi? What about societal Deities? Who was Heru before there were pharaohs? Who was Hestia before the hearth, much less land animals, period?

3) We are also a tiny blip on a cosmic scale. In your theology, are "your" Deities the Gods and Goddesses of all creation, or just our local solar system?

 
1) I will call out, associations of "primal elements" as I call it. An example is certain gods being one for many differings of nature. That means, that they are either chaotically bound or are ones to relate to one side of nature, for all gods are connected THAT way to me.

2) My creatos mythos in my mind which I believe states that the gods have ALWAYS been with us, hence the Golden Age suggesting them as having had a hand in the divine plan. They are ones to never give up on us and will always answer to us as apart of their work with this world's nature. To me, my gods are cosmic entities, but are NOT ETs, so don't worry about that. They hail from everywhere there, for we come from the Cosmos as our birth home, as my know such.

3) God and goddesses of creation. And sames them in the Cosmics, because the Cosmos is our authority in our family beings. Done.

That's all. Bye! :)

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Re: 3 Questions for Hard Polytheism
« Reply #42 on: September 14, 2013, 10:47:30 pm »
Quote from: Roheon;119266


1) What of Deities of countless different cultures whose associations overlap? What of, say, Thor and Zeus and Taranis? How can they all be considered Gods of thunder? Is it a timeshare situation? How do you know which Deity to associate with any given storm? Is Thor Norse thunder and Zeus Greek thunder? Or is thunder merely something associated with them, and not their "dominion?"

I look at it the same way as I would say view a roofer working for company X and a roofer working for company Y. They are both roofers. Which one you will associate with your leaky roof will be the last one that fixed it.

I don't think they are so much THE god of anything, but there are certain elements, emotions etc that certain deities use and manipulate. As far as which one I would associate with a thunder storm for example would probably be a "vibe" type of thing. If Thor comes to mind first then thats who I would associate with it. But sometimes it could be Taranis. Most of the time I just figure its weather being weather though ;)


Quote from: Roheon;119266
2) Humans are a tiny blip in time on a cosmic scale. What are we to the Deities? A random creature that actually noticed them, and decided to say hi? What about societal Deities? Who was Heru before there were pharaohs? Who was Hestia before the hearth, much less land animals, period?

 
Well in some mythology we are their "children". In others we are their creation. Personally I think we are beings that are high enough on the intelligence food chain to be noticed and a part of their existence.

Who was I before I became a father? I was still me, just my focus was different.

Quote from: Roheon;119266
3) We are also a tiny blip on a cosmic scale. In your theology, are "your" Deities the Gods and Goddesses of all creation, or just our local solar system?


In my theology everything that exists is a part of the All, and each thing from a blade of grass to deity are a manifestation of that.
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Lykeios Lysios

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Re: 3 Questions for Hard Polytheism
« Reply #43 on: September 22, 2013, 06:38:48 pm »
Quote from: Roheon;119266
1) What of Deities of countless different cultures whose associations overlap? What of, say, Thor and Zeus and Taranis? How can they all be considered Gods of thunder? Is it a timeshare situation? How do you know which Deity to associate with any given storm? Is Thor Norse thunder and Zeus Greek thunder? Or is thunder merely something associated with them, and not their "dominion?"

Well, I'm a bit of an odd duck in this regard. I'm the sort that likes to stick to the "middle" path. I'm a gray-area sort of guy. I'm a Hard Polytheist because I believe that the Gods and Goddesses are distinct, separate, and real. I'm also sort of a Soft Polytheist because I believe that the Gods and Goddesses of different belief systems may be linked or even the same where their associations and dominions overlap. I'm also an agnostic so I don't claim to know for sure. Its quite possible all Gods are in fact separate. Still, I personally believe that Thor and Zeus are quite possibly the same deity as understood by separate cultures. Although Zeus also shares characteristics with Odin, so it could be that the Norse split him up or combined two Gods and mixed their attributes as they saw fit for their beliefs.


Quote from: Roheon;119266
2) Humans are a tiny blip in time on a cosmic scale. What are we to the Deities? A random creature that actually noticed them, and decided to say hi? What about societal Deities? Who was Heru before there were pharaohs? Who was Hestia before the hearth, much less land animals, period?

I can only answer honestly here: I don't know. Its quite possible that Gods can be brought into being or altered by the energies manipulated by living things (humans included).

Quote from: Roheon;119266
3) We are also a tiny blip on a cosmic scale. In your theology, are "your" Deities the Gods and Goddesses of all creation, or just our local solar system?

Well, the deities I worship are the Gods of the Earth, but their parents and ancestors (the Titans) are the deities of the cosmos. Khaos, for instance, encompasses all things. He is primordial and infinite, in my belief. So is Kronos, the Titan of Time.
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Re: 3 Questions for Hard Polytheism
« Reply #44 on: September 27, 2013, 10:03:30 am »
Quote from: Lykeios Lysios;122632
Still, I personally believe that Thor and Zeus are quite possibly the same deity as understood by separate cultures. Although Zeus also shares characteristics with Odin, so it could be that the Norse split him up or combined two Gods and mixed their attributes as they saw fit for their beliefs.

I can perhaps shed some light here: Odin and his continental variations Woden and Wotan are thought by scholars now to have originated in Celtic tribes that interacted with the Germanic peoples nearby in the century before the Roman conquest of Gaul.
Frankly, it's hard to make 1-to-1 comparisons because Germanic mythology reflected a different culture from the Mediterranean. Just to talk about Zeus--he's not just the sky-god, but the god of law and order, and kingship, and the home. Germanic culture had a sky-god, Thor; but Tyr has the aspects of law-giver and kingly power.
Odin, once grafted onto Germanic mythology, acquired some some aspects of order/authority. The idea behind it being that kings were priests, and special magical knowledge afforded royal power. Hence why Odin is also the god of many skills, knowledge, wisdom, and magic--features that are common among Celtic gods, but rare among other cultures' gods.

Quote
So is Kronos, the Titan of Time.

Do mind, the Greek myths make a distinction between Kronos and Khronos. The former is the Titan king and father of the Zeus and his siblings. The latter is the god of time.

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