collapse

* "Unable to verify referring url. Please go back and try again" Problem Logging In?

If you get an "Unable to verify referring url. Please go back and try again" error when you try to log in, you need to be sure you are accessing the board with a url that starts with "https://ecauldron.com".  If it starts with https://www.ecauldron.com" (or "http://www.ecauldron.com") you will get this error because "www.ecauldron.com" is not technically the same website as "ecauldron.com". Moving to the more secure "https" means it is more picky about such things.

Author Topic: "Fictional" deities  (Read 5213 times)

MattyG

  • Master Member
  • ******
  • Join Date: Jun 2012
  • Posts: 406
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
"Fictional" deities
« on: March 05, 2013, 09:45:32 pm »
I was just wondering if anyone here ever works with deities invented in works of fiction. For example, the pantheons of Terry Pratchett's Discworld, the gods and goddesses of The Legend of Zelda or The Elder Scrolls, or maybe just The Flying Spaghetti Monster. I don't myself, but I was curious about anyone else's opinions or experiences. Do you believe that people can have legitimate relationships or religious experiences with deities that are specifically meant to be viewed as fictional?

Jack

  • Adept Member
  • ********
  • Join Date: Apr 2012
  • Location: Cascadia
  • Posts: 3168
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 90
    • View Profile
    • Jack of Many Trades
  • Religion: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • Preferred Pronouns: he/him/his
Re: "Fictional" deities
« Reply #1 on: March 05, 2013, 10:09:36 pm »
Quote from: MattyG;99781
I was just wondering if anyone here ever works with deities invented in works of fiction. For example, the pantheons of Terry Pratchett's Discworld, the gods and goddesses of The Legend of Zelda or The Elder Scrolls, or maybe just The Flying Spaghetti Monster. I don't myself, but I was curious about anyone else's opinions or experiences. Do you believe that people can have legitimate relationships or religious experiences with deities that are specifically meant to be viewed as fictional?

 
I have, yes, and I am of the opinion that my experiences are legitimate. :) I have also had some experiences where certain deities presented themselves as fictional characters and only let me see them otherwise after considerable time had passed. For that reason, and because of certain beliefs I hold about the relationships of deities to higher powers, I see no reason not to interact with supposedly fictional deities who answer when I talk to them.

/says the former chaos magician, fwiw.
Hail Mara, Lady of Good Things!
"The only way to cope with something deadly serious is to try to treat it a little lightly." -Madeleine L'Engle

Lokabrenna

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 829
  • Total likes: 2
    • View Profile
Re: "Fictional" deities
« Reply #2 on: March 05, 2013, 10:27:03 pm »
Quote from: MattyG;99781
I was just wondering if anyone here ever works with deities invented in works of fiction. For example, the pantheons of Terry Pratchett's Discworld, the gods and goddesses of The Legend of Zelda or The Elder Scrolls, or maybe just The Flying Spaghetti Monster. I don't myself, but I was curious about anyone else's opinions or experiences. Do you believe that people can have legitimate relationships or religious experiences with deities that are specifically meant to be viewed as fictional?

 
This is secondhand from another forum I'm on, but a member told me this cool story:

In a nutshell, she was trying to conceive, and her and her partner tried everything for a year, I think it was. Like me, she's a big fan of Kushiel's Legacy and in those books, women need to light a candle so that the goddess Eisheth will "open their wombs" before they can become pregnant.

So she did this, and next thing she knows, she's pregnant.

So now Eisheth has an altar near the one she has for Dionysus.

As for myself, I jokingly pray to fictional deities (like praying to Kushiel, from the same pantheon discussed above, before reading Fifty Shades to preserve my sanity). I know Storm Constantine actually has a grimoire out based on her Wraeththu books, and I recommend taking a look at Taylor Ellwood's Pop Culture Magick if you're interested in this sort of thing.

Now, as for what Jack mentioned, experiencing deities as fictional characters. I do that all the time, like seeing Mani in Yue from Card Captor Sakura.

Fireof9

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 937
  • Total likes: 1
    • View Profile
Re: "Fictional" deities
« Reply #3 on: March 05, 2013, 11:15:21 pm »
Quote from: Lokabrenna;99784
This is secondhand from another forum I'm on, but a member told me this cool story:

In a nutshell, she was trying to conceive, and her and her partner tried everything for a year, I think it was. Like me, she's a big fan of Kushiel's Legacy and in those books, women need to light a candle so that the goddess Eisheth will "open their wombs" before they can become pregnant.

So she did this, and next thing she knows, she's pregnant.

So now Eisheth has an altar near the one she has for Dionysus.

As for myself, I jokingly pray to fictional deities (like praying to Kushiel, from the same pantheon discussed above, before reading Fifty Shades to preserve my sanity). I know Storm Constantine actually has a grimoire out based on her Wraeththu books, and I recommend taking a look at Taylor Ellwood's Pop Culture Magick if you're interested in this sort of thing.

Now, as for what Jack mentioned, experiencing deities as fictional characters. I do that all the time, like seeing Mani in Yue from Card Captor Sakura.

 

Could this be a case of the fictional deity being likely based on a non fictional deity?

Just stabbing out in the dark here.
Really?  So, hey, want to go fishing?  I\'ve got a telescope, and it\'s going to be a dark night, so we should see the fish really well.
...what, I\'m not talking about fishing?  That\'s stargazing?  It\'s all doing-stuff, so it\'s the same thing, right?
-HeartShadow
 
Yesterday is history, Tomorrow is a mystery,Today is a gift,thats why the call it the present - Master Oogway

Finding the Owl -my blog
The Gwyddonic Order

Lokabrenna

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 829
  • Total likes: 2
    • View Profile
Re: "Fictional" deities
« Reply #4 on: March 05, 2013, 11:29:21 pm »
Quote from: Fireof9;99787
Could this be a case of the fictional deity being likely based on a non fictional deity?

Just stabbing out in the dark here.


The names of the deities--Naamah, Eisheth, Kushiel, Camael, Cassiel, Azza, Anael, and Shemhazai--are angels and demons from Jewish tradition (IIRC, Eisheth is associated with prostitution) but in the books in question, the deity invoked is associated with healing, music, and the whole pregnancy thing, and this person was specifically praying to her in that context, so I have no idea. They're definitely based upon a living tradition, but their associations are radically different.

Fireof9

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 937
  • Total likes: 1
    • View Profile
Re: "Fictional" deities
« Reply #5 on: March 05, 2013, 11:36:18 pm »
Quote from: Lokabrenna;99791
The names of the deities--Naamah, Eisheth, Kushiel, Camael, Cassiel, Azza, Anael, and Shemhazai--are angels and demons from Jewish tradition (IIRC, Eisheth is associated with prostitution) but in the books in question, the deity invoked is associated with healing, music, and the whole pregnancy thing, and this person was specifically praying to her in that context, so I have no idea. They're definitely based upon a living tradition, but their associations are radically different.


That is kinda cool, though a bit puzzling.
Really?  So, hey, want to go fishing?  I\'ve got a telescope, and it\'s going to be a dark night, so we should see the fish really well.
...what, I\'m not talking about fishing?  That\'s stargazing?  It\'s all doing-stuff, so it\'s the same thing, right?
-HeartShadow
 
Yesterday is history, Tomorrow is a mystery,Today is a gift,thats why the call it the present - Master Oogway

Finding the Owl -my blog
The Gwyddonic Order

veggiewolf

  • Adept Member
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 3105
  • Total likes: 1
    • View Profile
Re: "Fictional" deities
« Reply #6 on: March 06, 2013, 08:41:00 am »
Quote from: MattyG;99781
...Do you believe that people can have legitimate relationships or religious experiences with deities that are specifically meant to be viewed as fictional?

 
Surprisingly, yes.  I'm just starting to feel my way along, but in the past few weeks I've had occasion to pray to Kalahira.
Fluid Morality - my spiritual blog
Eating Monsters - my mental health blog

"Religion does not define a deity- it defines the human approach and interpretation of deity." - Juni
"I hate magical thinking in my magic." - Darkhawk
"...a baseball club; a soccer unkindness; a hockey murder; a football team..." - Cecil, Welcome to Night Vale

Thorn

  • Master Member
  • ******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 285
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: "Fictional" deities
« Reply #7 on: March 06, 2013, 12:17:51 pm »
Quote from: MattyG;99781
I was just wondering if anyone here ever works with deities invented in works of fiction.

I seem to have a good relationship with Neil Gaiman's Endless, from the Sandman comic.  Not deities, per se, but anthropomorphic personifications.  

Though, I think in this case it's just that, f'ex, Death doesn't mind me imagining her as a perky goth chick...
"Faith and and reason are the shoes on your feet.  You can travel further with both than you can with just one." - Babylon 5
Etsy * FB * Art Blog* Spritual Blog

Agonistes

  • Sr. Apprentice
  • ****
  • Join Date: Aug 2011
  • Posts: 92
  • Total likes: 1
    • View Profile
Re: "Fictional" deities
« Reply #8 on: March 06, 2013, 12:26:44 pm »
Quote from: MattyG;99781
I was just wondering if anyone here ever works with deities invented in works of fiction. For example, the pantheons of Terry Pratchett's Discworld, the gods and goddesses of The Legend of Zelda or The Elder Scrolls, or maybe just The Flying Spaghetti Monster. I don't myself, but I was curious about anyone else's opinions or experiences. Do you believe that people can have legitimate relationships or religious experiences with deities that are specifically meant to be viewed as fictional?

 

What is reality, yet something someone believes to be true.

I always like to use Tulpa's as an example, if someone believes it to be true, then it's true for someone.

Emma Eldritch

  • Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: May 2012
  • Posts: 1265
  • Country: 00
  • Total likes: 67
    • View Profile
    • https://rocknrollwitch.blogspot.ca/
Re: "Fictional" deities
« Reply #9 on: March 07, 2013, 02:39:45 am »
Quote from: MattyG;99781
I was just wondering if anyone here ever works with deities invented in works of fiction. For example, the pantheons of Terry Pratchett's Discworld, the gods and goddesses of The Legend of Zelda or The Elder Scrolls, or maybe just The Flying Spaghetti Monster. I don't myself, but I was curious about anyone else's opinions or experiences. Do you believe that people can have legitimate relationships or religious experiences with deities that are specifically meant to be viewed as fictional?

 
BATMAN!

No, seriously - I see no reason why connecting with fictional gods wouldn't work. I mean... chaos magic. You could argue if it's 'real' or not, but that starts getting into "my imaginary friend is better than yours" territory.

SkySamuelle

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 717
  • Total likes: 2
    • View Profile
    • http://seastruckbythecrossroads.wordpress.com/
Re: "Fictional" deities
« Reply #10 on: March 07, 2013, 04:12:04 am »
Quote from: Mama Fortuna;99968
BATMAN!

No, seriously - I see no reason why connecting with fictional gods wouldn't work. I mean... chaos magic. You could argue if it's 'real' or not, but that starts getting into "my imaginary friend is better than yours" territory.

 
Putting it like would sort of imply that everyone sees deity as something you can create or describe into the 'imaginary friend pattern'. It's not so for everyone.

Now while I don't buy the 'i can create a god if i pour enough intent into it' trend, I do believe that gods and spirits are rather opportunistic. A previously unknown deity can certainly act as a muse and decide hiding into fiction in order to gather attention or just amusement. Or, a writer can tap into Something real through inspiration/imagination without even knowing it. Or again, as most of deity names seem to be 'titles' seeking interaction with a fictional deity defined by a certain name/characteristics can actually draw the response of Someone responding to a certain title/characteristics into the Otherworld. And then there's a number of gods and spirits that don't really care about which guise they have use to get stuff accomplished.

The universe is an incredibly complex place and I imagine we are privy to about the 10% of what actually exists.

So in short, I think it's possible to have a legitimate religious experience with a deity that appears in a work of fiction ... I just don't believe that, with inspiration having such a long history to be litterally induced by muses and nymphs and other deities and spirits disguising however they please, the fictionalization of deities necessarily means they were created by the fiction itself.:whis:
“Sometimes you wake up. Sometimes the fall kills you. And sometimes, when you fall, you fly.” ― Neil Gaiman *
Currently blogging at: http://seastruckbythecrossroads.wordpress.com/
Icon by jewelotus

Altair

  • Adept Member
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Location: New York, New York
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 2937
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 325
  • Fly high and make the world follow
    • View Profile
    • Songs of the Metamythos
  • Religion: tree-hugging pagan
  • Preferred Pronouns: he/him/his
Re: "Fictional" deities
« Reply #11 on: March 07, 2013, 07:26:08 am »
Quote from: MattyG;99781
Do you believe that people can have legitimate relationships or religious experiences with deities that are specifically meant to be viewed as fictional?


The only line I see between the deities of traditional pantheons and those of fictional works is intent. Without getting into how "real" deities are, if a deity resonates so deeply with a person the s/he finds a deeper truth expressed through that god's story and attributes, then the intent has shifted for that person. The religious experience is legit.

Religion is story that gives our lives meaning. It doesn't matter where that story began, only where it ends up in the mind of the adherent.

Of course, that won't stop me from having a good laugh when a religious story's origin strikes me as batshit crazy. Mormonism and Scientology come to mind...and then there's this:

http://chneukirchen.org/tmp/www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Island/2295/

(Be sure to read some of the comments under the "Listing of Followers"...holy crap...)
The first song sets the wheel in motion / The second is a song of love / The third song tells of Her devotion / The fourth cries joy from the sky above
The fifth song binds our fate to silence / and bids us live each moment well / The sixth unleashes rage and violence / The seventh song has truth to tell
The last song echoes through the ages / to ask its question all night long / And close the circle on these pages / These, the metamythos songs

SerpentineSorcerer

  • Journeyman
  • *****
  • Join Date: Nov 2012
  • Posts: 111
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
    • http://abracadabra-macabre.tumblr.com/
Re: "Fictional" deities
« Reply #12 on: March 07, 2013, 10:53:13 am »
Quote from: SkySamuelle;99971
Putting it like would sort of imply that everyone sees deity as something you can create or describe into the 'imaginary friend pattern'. It's not so for everyone.

Now while I don't buy the 'i can create a god if i pour enough intent into it' trend, I do believe that gods and spirits are rather opportunistic. A previously unknown deity can certainly act as a muse and decide hiding into fiction in order to gather attention or just amusement. Or, a writer can tap into Something real through inspiration/imagination without even knowing it. Or again, as most of deity names seem to be 'titles' seeking interaction with a fictional deity defined by a certain name/characteristics can actually draw the response of Someone responding to a certain title/characteristics into the Otherworld. And then there's a number of gods and spirits that don't really care about which guise they have use to get stuff accomplished.

The universe is an incredibly complex place and I imagine we are privy to about the 10% of what actually exists.

So in short, I think it's possible to have a legitimate religious experience with a deity that appears in a work of fiction ... I just don't believe that, with inspiration having such a long history to be litterally induced by muses and nymphs and other deities and spirits disguising however they please, the fictionalization of deities necessarily means they were created by the fiction itself.:whis:

 
I wholeheartedly second this.
"Men of broader intellect know that there is no sharp distinction betwixt the real and the unreal"

"Life is not separate from death. It only looks that way."

SkySamuelle

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 717
  • Total likes: 2
    • View Profile
    • http://seastruckbythecrossroads.wordpress.com/
Re: "Fictional" deities
« Reply #13 on: March 07, 2013, 02:17:22 pm »
Quote from: Altair;99978
The only line I see between the deities of traditional pantheons and those of fictional works is intent. Without getting into how "real" deities are, if a deity resonates so deeply with a person the s/he finds a deeper truth expressed through that god's story and attributes, then the intent has shifted for that person. The religious experience is legit.



 
I guess it depends on what you (general you, not especifically Altair-you) consider a 'religious experience' tough - if you are talking about a somewhat mutual relationship where there's a mortal and an Holy Power with feelings, indipendent thought and personal agenda and everything that makes up an individual personality then I don't think you will get the same results from worshipping Zeus and Aslan/Batman/Tia Dalma. If you are instead aiming to align yourself with a certain brand of inspiration/energies/inner truth that thinking of that fictional deity makes you to feel closer to, then you are likely to reach the goal.
“Sometimes you wake up. Sometimes the fall kills you. And sometimes, when you fall, you fly.” ― Neil Gaiman *
Currently blogging at: http://seastruckbythecrossroads.wordpress.com/
Icon by jewelotus

Jack

  • Adept Member
  • ********
  • Join Date: Apr 2012
  • Location: Cascadia
  • Posts: 3168
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 90
    • View Profile
    • Jack of Many Trades
  • Religion: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • Preferred Pronouns: he/him/his
Re: "Fictional" deities
« Reply #14 on: March 07, 2013, 03:22:55 pm »
Quote from: SkySamuelle;100040
I guess it depends on what you (general you, not especifically Altair-you) consider a 'religious experience' tough - if you are talking about a somewhat mutual relationship where there's a mortal and an Holy Power with feelings, indipendent thought and personal agenda and everything that makes up an individual personality then I don't think you will get the same results from worshipping Zeus and Aslan/Batman/Tia Dalma. If you are instead aiming to align yourself with a certain brand of inspiration/energies/inner truth that thinking of that fictional deity makes you to feel closer to, then you are likely to reach the goal.

 
I actually know someone who's had very good results from working with Aslan and I've worked with him myself. He seems real enough to me.
Hail Mara, Lady of Good Things!
"The only way to cope with something deadly serious is to try to treat it a little lightly." -Madeleine L'Engle

Tags:
 

Related Topics

  Subject / Started by Replies Last post
8 Replies
1888 Views
Last post October 13, 2012, 06:14:48 pm
by Materialist
31 Replies
4741 Views
Last post January 19, 2013, 02:02:16 am
by drekfletch
41 Replies
5159 Views
Last post March 13, 2015, 07:06:43 pm
by Sefiru
13 Replies
1066 Views
Last post August 11, 2018, 03:20:39 pm
by TheGreenWizard
3 Replies
326 Views
Last post June 17, 2019, 07:52:55 pm
by Ashmire

* Who's Online

  • Dot Guests: 39
  • Dot Hidden: 0
  • Dot Users: 1
  • Dot Users Online:

* Please Donate!

The Cauldron's server is expensive and requires monthly payments. Please become a Bronze, Silver or Gold Donor if you can. Donations are needed every month. Without member support, we can't afford the server.

* In Memoriam

Chavi (2006)
Elspeth (2010)
Marilyn (2013)

* Cauldron Staff

Host:
Sunflower

Message Board Staff
Board Coordinator:
Darkhawk

Assistant Board Coordinator:
Aster Breo

Senior Staff:
Aisling, Jenett, Sefiru

Staff:
Allaya, Chatelaine, EclecticWheel, HarpingHawke, Kylara, PerditaPickle, rocquelaire

Discord Chat Staff
Chat Coordinator:
Morag

Cauldron Council:
Bob, Catja, Emma-Eldritch, Fausta, Jubes, Kelly, LyricFox, Phouka, Sperran, Star, Steve, Tana

Site Administrator:
Randall