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Author Topic: Family: Plus-size Barbie: Should dolls reflect real-world body types?  (Read 7340 times)

DavidMcCann

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Re: Plus-size Barbie: Should dolls reflect real-world body types?
« Reply #15 on: January 01, 2014, 12:39:45 pm »
Quote from: mlr52;134560
Or does it promote an unhealthy body image?

Yes.
Let's get the facts here:
Doctors warn us that obesity is unhealthy.
The obesity rate in the USA (the world's worst?) is 36%, but the anorexia rate in the USA is 2%: Americans are 18 times more likely to risk their health from being too fat than from being too thin.

Promoting a "positive image" of being fat just to stop fat people feeling sorry for themselves is just plain stupid.
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stephyjh

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Plus-size Barbie: Should dolls reflect real-world body types?
« Reply #16 on: January 01, 2014, 12:53:48 pm »
Quote from: DavidMcCann;134679
Yes.
Let's get the facts here:
Doctors warn us that obesity is unhealthy.
The obesity rate in the USA (the world's worst?) is 36%, but the anorexia rate in the USA is 2%: Americans are 18 times more likely to risk their health from being too fat than from being too thin.

Promoting a "positive image" of being fat just to stop fat people feeling sorry for themselves is just plain stupid.

So I'm stupid for understanding that correlation is not causation, that the health risks correlated with obesity are also linked to elevated stress levels such as those created by a society that upholds a body standard that even those being displayed as ideal don't actually meet without their photos retouched, and that the only time in my life it has been physically possible for me to reach that so-called ideal weight, I nearly died in the process? I think you need to reexamine what "stupid" means.
A heretic blast has been blown in the west,
That what is no sense must be nonsense.

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Sarah

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Re: Plus-size Barbie: Should dolls reflect real-world body types?
« Reply #17 on: January 01, 2014, 12:56:46 pm »
Quote from: DavidMcCann;134679
Yes.
Let's get the facts here:
Doctors warn us that obesity is unhealthy.
The obesity rate in the USA (the world's worst?) is 36%, but the anorexia rate in the USA is 2%: Americans are 18 times more likely to risk their health from being too fat than from being too thin.

Promoting a "positive image" of being fat just to stop fat people feeling sorry for themselves is just plain stupid.


Actually no, this assumes that the risks from anorexia and obesity are the same, when actually anorexia is much more likely to cause health issues and has a really high mortality rate.
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yewberry

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Re: Plus-size Barbie: Should dolls reflect real-world body types?
« Reply #18 on: January 01, 2014, 01:10:03 pm »
Quote from: DavidMcCann;134679
Promoting a "positive image" of being fat just to stop fat people feeling sorry for themselves is just plain stupid.

 
Yeah.  Take that, biology!

Seriously, though, what?

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Re: Plus-size Barbie: Should dolls reflect real-world body types?
« Reply #19 on: January 01, 2014, 01:12:01 pm »
Quote from: DavidMcCann;134679
Yes.
Let's get the facts here:
Doctors warn us that obesity is unhealthy.


No.  There is no direct correlation between obesity and any health problems.  However, obesity can be a co-morbidity (hated word, but one used often in my profession) of certain health problems.

I'll repeat that: obesity does not directly cause health problems, but some health problems may cause obesity.  

Quote
The obesity rate in the USA (the world's worst?) is 36%, but the anorexia rate in the USA is 2%: Americans are 18 times more likely to risk their health from being too fat than from being too thin.


Would you share your source for this information?

Quote
Promoting a "positive image" of being fat just to stop fat people feeling sorry for themselves is just plain stupid.

 
Why do you assume we feel sorry for ourselves?
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stephyjh

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Plus-size Barbie: Should dolls reflect real-world body types?
« Reply #20 on: January 01, 2014, 01:17:18 pm »
Quote from: maybeimawitch;134686
Actually no, this assumes that the risks from anorexia and obesity are the same, when actually anorexia is much more likely to cause health issues and has a really high mortality rate.

My eating disorder nearly killed me. Anyone who thinks that being thin is "healthier" than listening to one's body and attending to its needs is welcome to try the kind of starvation I put myself through and still couldn't achieve model proportions. On 600 calories a day, purging most of that, I got down to a size 6. My periods stopped. I was tired constantly. It destabilized my blood sugar to a degree from which I've never fully come back. I was so out of proportion that my head looked too big for my body. But my thighs still touched, and my stomach still wasn't flat, and I still felt like a failure. So I completely agree that anorexia is more toxic, as are the people who think taking a stand against the kind of humiliation and abuse that drives young girls to that point is "stupid." May the blood of those dying of anorexia be on the heads of those who think our fat-shaming, abusive culture is to be defended.
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That what is no sense must be nonsense.

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Castus

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Re: Plus-size Barbie: Should dolls reflect real-world body types?
« Reply #21 on: January 01, 2014, 01:55:36 pm »
Quote from: mlr52;134560
Plus-size Barbie: Should dolls reflect real-world body types?

See the photo and read more: http://bc.ctvnews.ca/plus-size-barbie-should-dolls-reflect-real-world-body-types-1.1609453#ixzz2p4ohg8vx

Although the doll is out, the question is still a vaild one.  Does it give childern the idea that being big is ok?, Does it promote accecptance of ones self and others?  Or does it promote an unhealthy body image?


I don't like the doll, because being fat is not normal. Being Barbie-skinny isn't normal either. I doubt there is any "normal" body image that exists outside of a purely theoretical and statistical realm. But once Barbie achieves a shape that is at least manageable without an unhealthy amount of fasting and calorie-counting gymnastics, that will certainly be a league better than now.

As for being overweight in general, I am of the view that there is such a thing as an objectively desirable weight from a medical standpoint and that that weight varies for your age, general health, sex, ethnicity, etc. Obesity carries significantly increased risks for a myriad of other health problems but obesity itself does not have to be inherently unhealthy. I, personally, as an overweight person, am not comfortable with my current state of health and generally agree with the normal standard of beauty and therefore wish to change it.

However, all that being said, if you're fat and like who you are, then fine by me. An individual's body is their own, individual choice.

stephyjh

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Plus-size Barbie: Should dolls reflect real-world body types?
« Reply #22 on: January 01, 2014, 02:08:56 pm »
Quote from: Castus;134694
I don't like the doll, because being fat is not normal. Being Barbie-skinny isn't normal either. I doubt there is any "normal" body image that exists outside of a purely theoretical and statistical realm. But once Barbie achieves a shape that is at least manageable without an unhealthy amount of fasting and calorie-counting gymnastics, that will certainly be a league better than now.

As for being overweight in general, I am of the view that there is such a thing as an objectively desirable weight from a medical standpoint and that that weight varies for your age, general health, sex, ethnicity, etc. Obesity carries significantly increased risks for a myriad of other health problems but obesity itself does not have to be inherently unhealthy. I, personally, as an overweight person, am not comfortable with my current state of health and generally agree with the normal standard of beauty and therefore wish to change it.

However, all that being said, if you're fat and like who you are, then fine by me. An individual's body is their own, individual choice.

Castus, being judgmental may be normal, and thinking that bad science has somehow "proven" that fat is bad may be normal, but that norm is toxic, and people die from it. So you need to stop and consider whether normal is what you want.
A heretic blast has been blown in the west,
That what is no sense must be nonsense.

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Castus

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Re: Plus-size Barbie: Should dolls reflect real-world body types?
« Reply #23 on: January 01, 2014, 02:28:33 pm »
Quote from: stephyjh;134696
Castus, being judgmental may be normal, and thinking that bad science has somehow "proven" that fat is bad may be normal, but that norm is toxic, and people die from it. So you need to stop and consider whether normal is what you want.

 
I wasn't aware that I was being judgmental, but then again those who are judgmental are only rarely cognizant of being so. I had tried to aim for saying that there is no actual normal weight, but it seems I missed. As for saying that science has "proven that fat is bad" not only did I never say such a thing, but I took care to say that being fat isn't inherently unhealthy. But being fat does, to the best of my medical knowledge, carry significant health risks. This is what I've been told by my doctor, by the classes at school, by my aunt who is an RN, and by my parents who are both EMT paramedics. I'm not saying that there is a normal, but there is something that is perceived as normal and that is, personally, an image I aspire to. If someone is fat and happy then they should feel free to continue being so, and if they're not then I recommend trying to do something about it.

In sum: Being fat carries health risks, being fat in and of itself is not unhealthy, there is a difference between an ideal medically-prescribed weight (which shifts based on personal variables) and a socially-prescribed idea of "normal" and beauty, and really people can be whatever the hell shape they want as long as they are happy.

stephyjh

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Plus-size Barbie: Should dolls reflect real-world body types?
« Reply #24 on: January 01, 2014, 02:42:37 pm »
Quote from: Castus;134702
I wasn't aware that I was being judgmental, but then again those who are judgmental are only rarely cognizant of being so. I had tried to aim for saying that there is no actual normal weight, but it seems I missed. As for saying that science has "proven that fat is bad" not only did I never say such a thing, but I took care to say that being fat isn't inherently unhealthy. But being fat does, to the best of my medical knowledge, carry significant health risks. This is what I've been told by my doctor, by the classes at school, by my aunt who is an RN, and by my parents who are both EMT paramedics. I'm not saying that there is a normal, but there is something that is perceived as normal and that is, personally, an image I aspire to. If someone is fat and happy then they should feel free to continue being so, and if they're not then I recommend trying to do something about it.

In sum: Being fat carries health risks, being fat in and of itself is not unhealthy, there is a difference between an ideal medically-prescribed weight (which shifts based on personal variables) and a socially-prescribed idea of "normal" and beauty, and really people can be whatever the hell shape they want as long as they are happy.

As has been said upthread, there is a correlation between health issues and obesity, but to think that obesity causes them is bad science. There's nothing showing that the link between obesity and poor health is in any way one of causality. The oversimplification you're familiar with is a common one, but all that has actually been proven is overlap, not cause and effect.

To give an example, people eat more ice cream in the summer. Murder rates are higher in the summer. Thus there's a link between ice cream consumption and murder rates. To say that fat causes health problems based on the evidence that exists would be like saying that ice cream causes murder.
A heretic blast has been blown in the west,
That what is no sense must be nonsense.

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Sage

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Re: Plus-size Barbie: Should dolls reflect real-world body types?
« Reply #25 on: January 01, 2014, 03:11:49 pm »
Quote from: DavidMcCann;134679
Yes.
Let's get the facts here:
Doctors warn us that obesity is unhealthy.
The obesity rate in the USA (the world's worst?) is 36%, but the anorexia rate in the USA is 2%: Americans are 18 times more likely to risk their health from being too fat than from being too thin.

Promoting a "positive image" of being fat just to stop fat people feeling sorry for themselves is just plain stupid.

 
Yeah I'm calling you out here. Fat does not equal unhealthy. You literally have no ground to stand on here and I'm sick to death of my body being politicized.

Fat. Is. Okay.
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Re: Plus-size Barbie: Should dolls reflect real-world body types?
« Reply #26 on: January 01, 2014, 03:40:39 pm »
Quote from: DavidMcCann;134679
Yes.
Let's get the facts here:
Doctors warn us that obesity is unhealthy.
The obesity rate in the USA (the world's worst?) is 36%, but the anorexia rate in the USA is 2%: Americans are 18 times more likely to risk their health from being too fat than from being too thin.

Promoting a "positive image" of being fat just to stop fat people feeling sorry for themselves is just plain stupid.

 
Not only are our standards of what counts as "overweight" and "obese" based on bad studies of malnourished male soldiers a hundred years ago (rather than any reasonable slice of the human population, or one that includes, you know, women)--the health risks and mortality rate for being "underweight" are actually far higher than any proven health risks for being "overweight," and the mortality rate for anorexia is astronomical.  Try coming back with actual facts.
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Nyktipolos

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Re: Plus-size Barbie: Should dolls reflect real-world body types?
« Reply #27 on: January 01, 2014, 06:13:37 pm »
Quote from: Castus;134702
I wasn't aware that I was being judgmental, but then again those who are judgmental are only rarely cognizant of being so. I had tried to aim for saying that there is no actual normal weight, but it seems I missed. As for saying that science has "proven that fat is bad" not only did I never say such a thing, but I took care to say that being fat isn't inherently unhealthy. But being fat does, to the best of my medical knowledge, carry significant health risks. This is what I've been told by my doctor, by the classes at school, by my aunt who is an RN, and by my parents who are both EMT paramedics. I'm not saying that there is a normal, but there is something that is perceived as normal and that is, personally, an image I aspire to. If someone is fat and happy then they should feel free to continue being so, and if they're not then I recommend trying to do something about it.

In sum: Being fat carries health risks, being fat in and of itself is not unhealthy, there is a difference between an ideal medically-prescribed weight (which shifts based on personal variables) and a socially-prescribed idea of "normal" and beauty, and really people can be whatever the hell shape they want as long as they are happy.

 
Even though you follow up your statement stating that you think the regular Barbie is an unhealthy size, you started off by saying: "I don't like the doll, because being fat is not normal." This reinforces a very toxic worldview that fat people already hear. I and everyone else here is reading what you're saying after the fact, as well as this post I am quoting, but what you started off with here sets a very negative tone about fat people that is harmful and already used by others, and is generally only used with lip service towards being healthy.

I realize you are focusing more on health issues, but I just wanted to point out the history and context of how that phrasing has normally been used.
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Castus

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Re: Plus-size Barbie: Should dolls reflect real-world body types?
« Reply #28 on: January 01, 2014, 06:36:32 pm »
Quote from: Nyktipolos;134730
Even though you follow up your statement stating that you think the regular Barbie is an unhealthy size, you started off by saying: "I don't like the doll, because being fat is not normal." This reinforces a very toxic worldview that fat people already hear. I and everyone else here is reading what you're saying after the fact, as well as this post I am quoting, but what you started off with here sets a very negative tone about fat people that is harmful and already used by others, and is generally only used with lip service towards being healthy.

I realize you are focusing more on health issues, but I just wanted to point out the history and context of how that phrasing has normally been used.

I tried at least three different versions of this reply in the vein of "But I didn't mean it that way..." but that hasn't worked out so far. So I'll just settle for thanking you for keeping me mindful.

Nyktipolos

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Re: Plus-size Barbie: Should dolls reflect real-world body types?
« Reply #29 on: January 01, 2014, 07:01:15 pm »
Quote from: Castus;134738
I tried at least three different versions of this reply in the vein of "But I didn't mean it that way..." but that hasn't worked out so far. So I'll just settle for thanking you for keeping me mindful.

 
*nods* I understand. It means something to be able to sit back and re-evaluate how to phrase things or something you've said, even if you meant well. That's still something I work on as well.
"Though my soul may set in darkness, it will rise in perfect light;
I have loved the stars too fondly to be fearful of the night." - Sarah Williams
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