collapse

Important Announcement

Changing the Guard at The Cauldron

Sunflower is the new Host of The Cauldron: A Pagan Forum
Please read this thread for more information.

* "Unable to verify referring url. Please go back and try again" Problem Logging In?

If you get an "Unable to verify referring url. Please go back and try again" error when you try to log in, you need to be sure you are accessing the board with a url that starts with "https://ecauldron.com".  If it starts with https://www.ecauldron.com" (or "http://www.ecauldron.com") you will get this error because "www.ecauldron.com" is not technically the same website as "ecauldron.com". Moving to the more secure "https" means it is more picky about such things.

Author Topic: Family: In a bit of a pickle  (Read 3869 times)

ehbowen

  • Grand Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Location: Houston, Texas
  • *
  • Posts: 1164
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 205
  • A Ways Around the Bend...
    • View Profile
    • Streamliner Schedules
  • Religion: Southern Baptist
Re: In a bit of a pickle
« Reply #15 on: January 02, 2017, 11:34:32 am »
Quote from: Morrigans Daughter;200791
If this were true people wouldn't die at the hands of their intimate partners. Why would a loving god want people to stay in abusive relationships?

This presumes that death is The End; in my belief system it can be seen more as The Real Beginning. I am quite convinced that if you are faithfully holding up your end of the vow and such an event happens you shall be rewarded beyond your wildest expectations...and the other party will, someday, sincerely wish that a millstone had been hung around his neck and that he had been drowned in the deepest sea....

That addresses the plain case you present. The larger question, though, is what a loving god wants? Frankly, he wants us to grow to become the kind of person(s) that he (they) is (are) himself (oh, whatever!). Ultimately (IMO), that cannot be done by restricting choices...or their consequences. Adult moral agents need to have the freedom to make choices and act upon them, whether those choices are positive or negative. But, contrariwise, the full consequences of that choice must fall upon them—positive or negative. Only then can they truly appreciate and learn from their experiences.

That allowing that process to proceed to completion results in horrifying outcomes (e.g., Holocaust) at times, I agree. But I believe that the consequences of interfering with that process are even worse. Only by allowing the Seed of Evil to bear its full fruit for all to see and know can we ever hope to ensure that no one will ever be tempted to plant it again. In My Opinion, of course.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2017, 11:38:14 am by ehbowen »
--------Eric H. Bowen
Where's the KABOOM? There was supposed to have been an Earth-shattering KABOOM!

Sarah

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Apr 2013
  • Posts: 827
  • Total likes: 3
    • View Profile
Re: In a bit of a pickle
« Reply #16 on: January 02, 2017, 02:08:12 pm »
Quote from: ehbowen;200793
This presumes that death is The End; in my belief system it can be seen more as The Real Beginning. I am quite convinced that if you are faithfully holding up your end of the vow and such an event happens you shall be rewarded beyond your wildest expectations


This is vile, people shouldn't have to go through horrific things so they get rewards in the afterlife.

Quote from: ehbowen;200793
Adult moral agents need to have the freedom to make choices and act upon them, whether those choices are positive or negative. But, contrariwise, the full consequences of that choice must fall upon them—positive or negative. Only then can they truly appreciate and learn from their experiences.


Actually I think society has a responsibility to stop people making choices that damage others

Quote from: ehbowen;200793
That allowing that process to proceed to completion results in horrifying outcomes (e.g., Holocaust) at times, I agree. But I believe that the consequences of interfering with that process are even worse. Only by allowing the Seed of Evil to bear its full fruit for all to see and know can we ever hope to ensure that no one will ever be tempted to plant it again. In My Opinion, of course.


If this were true antisemitism and fascism wouldn't still be a thing.
Knowing when to use a shovel is what being a witch is all about. Nanny Ogg, Witches Abroad

ehbowen

  • Grand Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Location: Houston, Texas
  • *
  • Posts: 1164
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 205
  • A Ways Around the Bend...
    • View Profile
    • Streamliner Schedules
  • Religion: Southern Baptist
Re: In a bit of a pickle
« Reply #17 on: January 02, 2017, 03:10:48 pm »
Quote from: Morrigans Daughter;200801
This is vile, people shouldn't have to go through horrific things so they get rewards in the afterlife.

Very well, what is your morally preferable solution?

Quote from: Morrigans Daughter;200801
Actually I think society has a responsibility to stop people making choices that damage others.

You are absolutely correct. It is society's God-ordained role to be the visible manifestation of Righteousness and Justice that evildoers may see, and fear, and hopefully be moved to change their ways. That's working out real well, of late....

Quote from: Morrigans Daughter;200801
If this were true antisemitism and fascism wouldn't still be a thing.

But the process has not yet been completed. Were this a screenplay (yes, I know, it's not), I'd say we were just about to finish up with Act II.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2017, 03:12:39 pm by ehbowen »
--------Eric H. Bowen
Where's the KABOOM? There was supposed to have been an Earth-shattering KABOOM!

Sefiru

  • Senior Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Nov 2013
  • Location: In the walls
  • Posts: 1745
  • Country: ca
  • Total likes: 366
    • View Profile
Re: In a bit of a pickle
« Reply #18 on: January 02, 2017, 03:27:49 pm »
Quote from: ehbowen;200719

I believe there are no mistakes in marriage. It is never a mistake to pledge to love, and cherish, and serve, and complement another for the length of a human lifetime—and then to carry out that vow.


Insofar as marriage is something that human beings do, errors are going to happen. There are no infallible humans (unless you're Catholic, and the Pope can't get married.)

Quote

But, maybe, It's Not All About You.


In my experience, this phrase is often used to dismiss the needs of people who are already giving more than they are receiving in a relationship. Used that way, it comes out sounding like 'it's not about you at all' which is not a message anybody needs to hear.

Jack

  • Adept Member
  • ********
  • Join Date: Apr 2012
  • Location: Cascadia
  • Posts: 3168
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 90
    • View Profile
    • Jack of Many Trades
  • Religion: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • Preferred Pronouns: he/him/his
Re: In a bit of a pickle
« Reply #19 on: January 02, 2017, 03:31:52 pm »
Quote from: ehbowen;200793
That addresses the plain case you present. The larger question, though, is what a loving god wants? Frankly, he wants us to grow to become the kind of person(s) that he (they) is (are) himself (oh, whatever!). Ultimately (IMO), that cannot be done by restricting choices...or their consequences. Adult moral agents need to have the freedom to make choices and act upon them, whether those choices are positive or negative. But, contrariwise, the full consequences of that choice must fall upon them—positive or negative. Only then can they truly appreciate and learn from their experiences.

Well the full consequences of leaving an abusive spouse are a heck of a lot more nebulous than the consequences of staying. If your God would punish someone for leaving an abusive spouse and moving on, well, I'm not a Christian so I trust mine will have my back after I die.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk
Hail Mara, Lady of Good Things!
"The only way to cope with something deadly serious is to try to treat it a little lightly." -Madeleine L'Engle

ehbowen

  • Grand Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Location: Houston, Texas
  • *
  • Posts: 1164
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 205
  • A Ways Around the Bend...
    • View Profile
    • Streamliner Schedules
  • Religion: Southern Baptist
Re: In a bit of a pickle
« Reply #20 on: January 02, 2017, 03:41:16 pm »
Quote from: Jack;200809
Well the full consequences of leaving an abusive spouse are a heck of a lot more nebulous than the consequences of staying. If your God would punish someone for leaving an abusive spouse and moving on, well, I'm not a Christian so I trust mine will have my back after I die.


This is not (in my mind) a question of crime and punishment, it is a question of what is highest and best. No, I feel certain that my God will not punish someone for leaving an abusive spouse...unless you call the loss of the rewards you would have received for hanging in there and continuing to reach out to their soul a "punishment".

Again, I think there is a very necessary and vital distinction between separation and divorce. Separation, whether formal (legal) or informal, is called for any time you receive a warning sign that this personality poses a threat. But divorce means that you are giving up on this person and washing your hands of him/her. That's pretty serious thing to do to someone whom you vowed to love and cherish "till death do you part."
--------Eric H. Bowen
Where's the KABOOM? There was supposed to have been an Earth-shattering KABOOM!

ehbowen

  • Grand Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Location: Houston, Texas
  • *
  • Posts: 1164
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 205
  • A Ways Around the Bend...
    • View Profile
    • Streamliner Schedules
  • Religion: Southern Baptist
Re: In a bit of a pickle
« Reply #21 on: January 02, 2017, 03:55:44 pm »
Quote from: Sefiru;200807
Insofar as marriage is something that human beings do, errors are going to happen. There are no infallible humans (unless you're Catholic, and the Pope can't get married.)

 
Then allow me to clarify. When I say that there are no mistakes in marriage, it is akin to saying that no baby is a mistake. Yes, people make mistakes entering in to marriage every day; they marry too soon, they marry without a job or when deeply in debt, they marry an unsuitable partner...the list goes on.

The thing is, though, once the commitment has been made, it is not a mistake. It is a fact. And it is worth hanging in there and seeing things through to completion. And if you seek my God's help in carrying out that vow, whether you actively worship him or not, I believe that he will give it.
--------Eric H. Bowen
Where's the KABOOM? There was supposed to have been an Earth-shattering KABOOM!

Jenett

  • Senior Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Location: Boston, MA
  • Posts: 3099
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 650
    • View Profile
    • Seeking: First steps on a path
  • Religion: Initiatory religious witchcraft
  • Preferred Pronouns: she/her
Re: In a bit of a pickle
« Reply #22 on: January 02, 2017, 04:04:23 pm »
Quote from: ehbowen;200810

Again, I think there is a very necessary and vital distinction between separation and divorce. Separation, whether formal (legal) or informal, is called for any time you receive a warning sign that this personality poses a threat. But divorce means that you are giving up on this person and washing your hands of him/her. That's pretty serious thing to do to someone whom you vowed to love and cherish "till death do you part."

 
That wasn't in my wedding vows. Which were, unsurprisingly, not in the Christian mode, because I was already Pagan at that point, and my ex was agnostic.

And it also wasn't the way my marriage was set up. There's a lot of different ways to look at marriage. (And I might suggest that taking pure philosophising about it to a different thread might be useful, in this case, since the original poster is still trying to problem-solve a difficult situation.)

I have been divorced for over 10 years now, which is nearly twice as long as I was married. I believe getting married was a good thing at the time, but I also believe that getting out when I did was a very good thing, because it was increasingly clear to me that my ex-husband was not going to step up and be a functional partner in the relationship. Ever.

He had also at that point put my health at significant risk, put our finances at significant risk (post divorce, I paid off more debt than a year's salary at that point in my life) and I was doing the bulk of the practical, logistical *and* emotional labour for most of our marriage. (All the work, none of the good stuff, especially for the last 18 months or so of the relationship). I gave him plenty of time (and plenty of explicit "this is not working for me, can we try something else" conversations) and options.

When it was clear nothing was going to change, I didn't keep doing the same thing that was making us both miserable over and over again, and that is, frankly, pretty clearly what *my* gods wanted out of me, given how fast my new life came together once I was done.

That said, TheEnigmaticSEF, a bit more than a year ago, there was a very very long thread on emotional labour on Metafilter that a lot of people I know found very useful. The original is exceedingly long (2000+ comments) but someone also put together a more reasonable annotated and indexed PDF version.

There's a lot in there about reciprocity and what one can and should expect from a *partner* in a relationship, different things people have tried when that (very often) isn't true, and above all, a lot of people found it reassuring they weren't alone with struggling with these things.
Seek Knowledge, Find Wisdom: Research help on esoteric and eclectic topics (consulting and other services)

Seeking: first steps on a Pagan path (advice for seekers and people new to Paganism)

Jack

  • Adept Member
  • ********
  • Join Date: Apr 2012
  • Location: Cascadia
  • Posts: 3168
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 90
    • View Profile
    • Jack of Many Trades
  • Religion: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • Preferred Pronouns: he/him/his
Re: In a bit of a pickle
« Reply #23 on: January 02, 2017, 04:14:36 pm »
Quote from: ehbowen;200810
This is not (in my mind) a question of crime and punishment, it is a question of what is highest and best. No, I feel certain that my God will not punish someone for leaving an abusive spouse...unless you call the loss of the rewards you would have received for hanging in there and continuing to reach out to their soul a "punishment".

Again, I think there is a very necessary and vital distinction between separation and divorce. Separation, whether formal (legal) or informal, is called for any time you receive a warning sign that this personality poses a threat. But divorce means that you are giving up on this person and washing your hands of him/her. That's pretty serious thing to do to someone whom you vowed to love and cherish "till death do you part."
Our vows actually didn't include til death do us part, so I guess that was fortuitous.

I mean, the rewards of leaving my abusive spouse include increased mental health, reduced suicidal ideation, reduced stress, the ability to make friendships without having them subverted by my spouse, the experience of genuine love and support from a non-abusive spouse, the ability to hold down a job without her trying to make me late or absent whenever the whim took her, and basically the capacity to enjoy all the perks of physical existence.

My gods want me to enjoy the world they are a part of and had a hand in creating. My gods recognize that I am able to give them more attention and praise when I am in a healthy place.

My gods do not want me to suffer meaninglessly in this life. They may not always have to power to prevent me from suffering, but they don't want me to stay in it, and I don't have the confidence that a God who would demand I suffer because I didn't know what healthy relationships were as a fucking teenager is a God who wants what's best for me.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk
Hail Mara, Lady of Good Things!
"The only way to cope with something deadly serious is to try to treat it a little lightly." -Madeleine L'Engle

Darkhawk

  • Senior Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 4832
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 719
    • View Profile
    • Suns in her Branches
  • Religion: An American Werewolf in the Akhet; Kemetic; Feri; Imaginary Baltic Heathen; Discordian; CoX; Etc.
  • Preferred Pronouns: any of he, she, they
Re: In a bit of a pickle
« Reply #24 on: January 02, 2017, 04:27:11 pm »
Quote from: ehbowen;200793
This presumes that death is The End; in my belief system it can be seen more as The Real Beginning.

 
This is a moral copout that absolves those who believe in it of any responsibility to care for the living.
as the water grinds the stone
we rise and fall
as our ashes turn to dust
we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

ehbowen

  • Grand Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Location: Houston, Texas
  • *
  • Posts: 1164
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 205
  • A Ways Around the Bend...
    • View Profile
    • Streamliner Schedules
  • Religion: Southern Baptist
Re: In a bit of a pickle
« Reply #25 on: January 02, 2017, 04:35:40 pm »
Quote from: Jenett;200814
(And I might suggest that taking pure philosophising about it to a different thread might be useful, in this case, since the original poster is still trying to problem-solve a difficult situation.)

 
Fair enough. With that in mind, I will offer the original poster my own personal advice as to her situation:

  • Stay in the marriage you committed to. Love your husband. Hope and pray for the very best to happen to him specifically, and to you both as a couple.
  • If he becomes abusive in any form, step away and separate from him for a time. For verbal abuse, this may be overnight or a weekend. For psychological, stay away until he agrees to counseling. For physical abuse, call the authorities and prosecute. Not out of vindictiveness, but because you know that for his own good he needs an "attitude adjustment."
  • Throughout any separation continue to love him and pray that God and circumstances will bring him to his senses and that, after that, you can be reconciled and be the couple that you always should have been.
  • If he is not abusive but remains distant and cold, do not lose heart. There is a man out there who needs to be loved and touched, and you are in a better position to do that than anyone else. Love him and try to keep the core being of that man you originally married in mind.
  • Pray for the marriage of the man whom you know from your dream, and for him and his spouse. Do not spend time thinking about what might have been. Things are what they are, and each of you has made choices. Embrace those choices and do the very best you can to carry them out.
  • Do not think that by doing so you are missing out on happiness or fulfillment forever. A human lifetime is a very short span in comparison to eternity. In my own faith tradition, I have the promise that, "At your right hand are pleasures forevermore." The best is yet to come.


I pray that you will find happiness, and fulfillment, and discover and win the true heart of your husband and that he might grow into the loving and supportive mate that I know God wants him to be. I pray likewise for the man you know from your dream. May all of those whose lives you touch find the way to that which is highest and best, and do so upon a path which is honorable every step of the way.
--------Eric H. Bowen
Where's the KABOOM? There was supposed to have been an Earth-shattering KABOOM!

Sefiru

  • Senior Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Nov 2013
  • Location: In the walls
  • Posts: 1745
  • Country: ca
  • Total likes: 366
    • View Profile
Re: In a bit of a pickle
« Reply #26 on: January 03, 2017, 06:09:13 pm »
Quote from: ehbowen;200812
Then allow me to clarify. When I say that there are no mistakes in marriage, it is akin to saying that no baby is a mistake. Yes, people make mistakes entering in to marriage every day; they marry too soon, they marry without a job or when deeply in debt, they marry an unsuitable partner...the list goes on.

The thing is, though, once the commitment has been made, it is not a mistake. It is a fact. And it is worth hanging in there and seeing things through to completion. And if you seek my God's help in carrying out that vow, whether you actively worship him or not, I believe that he will give it.


It is a false comparison to compare a marriage to a baby: a baby has a life, emotions and a soul of its own. A marriage has no existence independent of the people who are involved in it. Also, I am not sure why you consider mistakes and facts to be mutually exclusive.

ehbowen

  • Grand Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Location: Houston, Texas
  • *
  • Posts: 1164
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 205
  • A Ways Around the Bend...
    • View Profile
    • Streamliner Schedules
  • Religion: Southern Baptist
Re: In a bit of a pickle
« Reply #27 on: January 03, 2017, 06:45:01 pm »
Quote from: Sefiru;200888
It is a false comparison to compare a marriage to a baby: a baby has a life, emotions and a soul of its own. A marriage has no existence independent of the people who are involved in it. Also, I am not sure why you consider mistakes and facts to be mutually exclusive.

 
Last first: I don't consider them to be mutually exclusive; I do consider them to be separate issues. It may be a mistake to purchase a house which is in need of major repair in a questionable neighborhood...but once the contract is signed, that is that. Now, while you may be able to pawn it off on another sucker buyer, you can hardly go back to the seller six months later and tell him to give you your money back.

Now for the first: Yes, I know that Bible verses are hardly authoritative here. But it does show where I am coming from. I ask you to bear with me:

"He who finds a wife finds a good thing, and obtains favor from the Lord [Proverbs 18:22]."

Notice that there is no qualifier whatsoever in this statement. Compare and contrast two other proverbs:

"An excellent wife is the crown of her husband, but she who causes shame is like rottenness in his bones [Prov. 12:4]."

"Houses and riches are an inheritance from fathers, but a prudent wife is from the Lord [Prov. 19:14]."

Those verses are qualified. The first speaks of an 'excellent' wife and alludes to one who causes shame, while the second says that a 'prudent' wife is a gift from God himself. But the 18:22 verse states plainly that the very act of entering into marriage is an unalloyed good, and that those who do receive my God's favor. Note that the subject of the statement is not qualified either; it does not specify 'Jews' or 'children of Abraham' or, by extension, 'Christians'. Bluntly, my God wants to see all marriages succeed, and is willing to help anyone who asks for it...inside or outside of the Christian faith. [You've noticed that the divorce statistics are virtually identical for Christians and non-Christians, I trust....]

That's the basic reason why I state that there are no mistakes in marriage. Once the commitment is made, my God wants to help you fulfill it. I'm not saying that will be easy in a world which largely rejects his leadership...again, look at the divorce statistics. But that is his desire, and his help is out there if you choose to seek it.
--------Eric H. Bowen
Where's the KABOOM? There was supposed to have been an Earth-shattering KABOOM!

Darkhawk

  • Senior Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 4832
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 719
    • View Profile
    • Suns in her Branches
  • Religion: An American Werewolf in the Akhet; Kemetic; Feri; Imaginary Baltic Heathen; Discordian; CoX; Etc.
  • Preferred Pronouns: any of he, she, they
Re: In a bit of a pickle
« Reply #28 on: January 03, 2017, 07:02:51 pm »
Quote from: ehbowen;200892
Now for the first: Yes, I know that Bible verses are hardly authoritative here. But it does show where I am coming from. I ask you to bear with me:

 
"For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven."  -- Matthew 22:30
as the water grinds the stone
we rise and fall
as our ashes turn to dust
we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

ehbowen

  • Grand Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Location: Houston, Texas
  • *
  • Posts: 1164
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 205
  • A Ways Around the Bend...
    • View Profile
    • Streamliner Schedules
  • Religion: Southern Baptist
Re: In a bit of a pickle
« Reply #29 on: January 03, 2017, 08:07:39 pm »
Quote from: Darkhawk;200893
"For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven."  -- Matthew 22:30

 
You are absolutely correct. I'm hoping to touch on this in the other thread, and go into a little bit of why, as best I understand it. But this is not heaven...if you hadn't noticed.

But while angels may not marry in heaven, I do think that if you're fortunate enough to catch one on earth...she's eligible.
--------Eric H. Bowen
Where's the KABOOM? There was supposed to have been an Earth-shattering KABOOM!

Tags:
 

Related Topics

  Subject / Started by Replies Last post
4 Replies
532 Views
Last post March 26, 2014, 10:13:12 pm
by Voren
2 Replies
566 Views
Last post June 21, 2014, 12:20:34 pm
by Emma Eldritch
1 Replies
637 Views
Last post June 23, 2014, 05:47:25 pm
by hecate8
0 Replies
312 Views
Last post October 20, 2014, 09:04:43 am
by RoseQuartz
89 Replies
18340 Views
Last post January 16, 2015, 05:43:38 am
by Yei

* Who's Online

  • Dot Guests: 20
  • Dot Hidden: 0
  • Dot Users: 3
  • Dot Users Online:

* Please Donate!

The Cauldron's server is expensive and requires monthly payments. Please become a Bronze, Silver or Gold Donor if you can. Donations are needed every month. Without member support, we can't afford the server.

* In Memoriam

Chavi (2006)
Elspeth (2010)
Marilyn (2013)

* Cauldron Staff

Host:
Sunflower

Message Board Staff
Board Coordinator:
Darkhawk

Assistant Board Coordinator:
Aster Breo

Senior Staff:
Aisling, Jenett, Sefiru

Staff:
Allaya, Chatelaine, EclecticWheel, HarpingHawke, Kylara, PerditaPickle, rocquelaire

Discord Chat Staff
Chat Coordinator:
Morag

Cauldron Council:
Bob, Catja, Emma-Eldritch, Fausta, Jubes, Kelly, LyricFox, Phouka, Sperran, Star, Steve, Tana

Site Administrator:
Randall