Family: Girly* things.

[missgraceless]

*bra and boob talk. Obviously this applies to anyone male, female or anywhere in between who wears a bra (or doesn't for whatever reason.) This is mainly a rant but advice/discussion is obviously welcome.

(Also it's in Family Life because of my fights with Fiancé)

So the past couple weeks I've been really getting tired of wearing bras. They're uncomfortable and I don't like them one bit. Rather than go completely braless like I would love to do (but society says OMG she's not wearing a bra how dare she?!) I've decided to go the bralette route rather than regular underwire/push-up bras. I bought one yesterday and it's the most comfortable thing I've ever worn (aside from au natural).

Buuuuut the problem is that Fiancé is "uncomfortable" with the idea of me wearing one because he thinks other guys will look at me, including his friends. I stopped caring what other people think about me nearly a decade ago, but he still very much does.

This isn't the first time we've fought about this. A couple weeks ago we got into the first fight because I wore a hoodie with no bra to Walmart (gasp!) with him. I firmly believe that there's no way in hell a bra can actually be beneficial to anything. I'd read some article about a French study that "proves" bras make your breasts sag more than without, but I dunno if it's true or not. Don't really care. Still don't like them.

But Fiancé is so stuck on society's idea that we as women (read: carriers of breasts) NEED TO HAVE OUR PERFECTLY SPHERICAL TITS UP TO OUR CHINS OHMYGOD.

He's got this mentality of "what you do with your body is a direct reflection of me and what I do." Like he's not fucking sitting there looking like a walking cucumber. He has no fashion sense other than "dressing up" means wearing jeans or khaki cargo shorts and a shirt that aren't grease stained. I love him so much but he doesn't get to tell me how to dress when all he does is "ooh let me style my hair even though I'm a mechanic and it literally doesn't matter."

I mean I'm gonna still wear the bralettes as much as possible because it's so more comfortable but how do I get him to see that it's my goddamn body and I'm gonna do what I want with it no matter what he says, without constantly fighting about it?





(I tried to be as trans/other gender inclusive as possible, I apologize if I came across as rude/assuming/what have you. It was not my intention.)

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[Uneryx]

*bra and boob talk. Obviously this applies to anyone male, female or anywhere in between who wears a bra (or doesn't for whatever reason.) This is mainly a rant but advice/discussion is obviously welcome.

(Also it's in Family Life because of my fights with Fiancé)

So the past couple weeks I've been really getting tired of wearing bras. They're uncomfortable and I don't like them one bit. Rather than go completely braless like I would love to do (but society says OMG she's not wearing a bra how dare she?!) I've decided to go the bralette route rather than regular underwire/push-up bras. I bought one yesterday and it's the most comfortable thing I've ever worn (aside from au natural).

Buuuuut the problem is that Fiancé is "uncomfortable" with the idea of me wearing one because he thinks other guys will look at me, including his friends. I stopped caring what other people think about me nearly a decade ago, but he still very much does.

...

I mean I'm gonna still wear the bralettes as much as possible because it's so more comfortable but how do I get him to see that it's my goddamn body and I'm gonna do what I want with it no matter what he says, without constantly fighting about it?

First of all your fiancee has no right to criticize you in this manner and it is my professional opinion that he can go fuck himself. Now, with the salty feminist response out of the way...

Perhaps a softer approach would be to ask him why he feels the way he does about how your appearance reflects on him, and what bothers him so much about you wearing bralettes. I mean, technically, you're still wearing something that covers your breasts, right?

Then, if he's being agreeable and not a pissbaby about it, explain how you feel when he treats you like an extension of himself and his pride, and that it's your body and really, he doesn't get to have a say in how you present yourself and your comfort levels. I personally believe that if you love someone, you try to respect their personal autonomy and it really sounds to me like there's a deficit in his level of respect for you.

Especially if y'all are about to get married, the deeper issue at hand isn't about your boobs and his level of public comfort, it's about an imbalance of respect and that won't make for a happy marriage, so I'd try to probe deeper and see what's really up with him and his need to control you.

Hope it goes okay without getting too fight-y.

[Noctua]

OK so I'm going to add another salty feminist comment and say that this:

Buuuuut the problem is that Fiancé is "uncomfortable" with the idea of me wearing one because he thinks other guys will look at me, including his friends. I stopped caring what other people think about me nearly a decade ago, but he still very much does.

This is your fiancee making you responsible for the behavior of these "other guys" which is basically Rape Culture 101. Neither you nor your choice of undergarment is in any way responsible for guys who choose to "look at you" (which also begs the question, why is it bad to be looked at? You're not some posession he needs to lock in a safe deposit box).

AAAAAhhhhhh ok, that's out of my system. My honest advice? Just wear the bralette. If he starts to argue about it, don't engage. Just state your position and leave it at that. Arguments take two people usually.

[Altair]

He has no fashion sense other than "dressing up" means wearing jeans or khaki cargo shorts and a shirt that aren't grease stained. I love him so much but he doesn't get to tell me how to dress when all he does is "ooh let me style my hair even though I'm a mechanic and it literally doesn't matter."

Khaki cargo shorts?? Oh, SO thoroughly and completely NO! He does NOT get to whine about how you dress if that's the best he can do.

What you need is for a gay man to read him for his lack of fashion sense. Then tell him when he makes a bona fide effort with his appearance, to actual metrosexual standards, you'll consider his requests.

[Sefiru]

I firmly believe that there's no way in hell a bra can actually be beneficial to anything.

Probably depends what sort of breasts one has. Mine definitely need something to keep them from moving around too much, otherwise I get aches in my chest and shoulders. I agree, though, that underwires are horrible things that will never enter my closet. I prefer bras that are labelled 'sports' or similar.

I also agree that none of this is any of your fiancee's business.

[MadZealot]

I mean I'm gonna still wear the bralettes as much as possible because it's so more comfortable but how do I get him to see that it's my goddamn body and I'm gonna do what I want with it no matter what he says, without constantly fighting about it?

Two questions:

1) Is he as cognizant/careful/paranoid about his own mode of dress as he is about yours?  If not, why not?

aaaand

2) Does your personal physical (and other) comfort not mean a goddamn thing?

[Morag]

He's got this mentality of "what you do with your body is a direct reflection of me and what I do."

This is a very serious problem you need to address. Especially if you are planning on ever having kids (I don't know if you are or not, and I don't want to make assumptions that ~of course~ if you're getting married you are, because that's a BS assumption and there are tons of people who are childfree and deserve to not be harassed about it -- but I am mentioning this in case you are, because it needs to be mentioned).

If you are planning on having kids, how do you think he'll act if you have a daughter & she wants to go braless? Or do anything outside society's mold?

I grew up with a bio-sire who believed I was a reflection of him. I was literally supposed to be a trophy kid. Whenever I did my own thing, there was hell to pay. (and yes, this included wanting to be braless. One of my freedoms now that he's out of my life is I never have to hear his comments about how I'm not wearing a bra.)

I'm not saying your fiance is an abusive fuckwad like my bio-sire, but that mentality will create a toxic family environment. For any kids you may have, but ALSO - ESPECIALLY - for you.

His mentality is a complete rejection of you being your own person. It's not just about the bras; this will bleed out into everything.

You are going to change as a person in the years that go by. You have no idea what you're going to want to do with your appearance/body in a decade. If he still has this mentality, if he still believes you are a reflection of him instead of your own person, then how do you think he's going to react the next time you want to do something outside society's mold?

This has the makings for a toxic relationship that will whittle away at you.

My advice, ie what I would do:

You need to explain to him clearly that you are your own person, and you are NOT a reflection of him. That you are not a trophy he can display proudly when it's positioned just the way he wants it, but that he hides away if it moves one inch out of place. You need to explain he needs to drop this mentality and grow up ASAP...or you're gone.

Make him understand how serious this is. Make him understand that his childishness could lose you. And then if he refuses to budge, stay with some friends for a while. Actually physically remove yourself from the situation. If that's not enough to drive home that he needs to drop this mentality and grow up...you have a hard decision to make. 


You are planning on marrying this guy. This may not seem like a huge issue, but this sort of mentality can destroy you over the years. Nip it in the bud.

[Uneryx]

This is a very serious problem you need to address....

I'm not saying your fiance is an abusive fuckwad like my bio-sire, but that mentality will create a toxic family environment. For any kids you may have, but ALSO - ESPECIALLY - for you.

His mentality is a complete rejection of you being your own person. It's not just about the bras; this will bleed out into everything.

You are going to change as a person in the years that go by. You have no idea what you're going to want to do with your appearance/body in a decade. If he still has this mentality, if he still believes you are a reflection of him instead of your own person, then how do you think he's going to react the next time you want to do something outside society's mold?

This has the makings for a toxic relationship that will whittle away at you.

...

You are planning on marrying this guy. This may not seem like a huge issue, but this sort of mentality can destroy you over the years. Nip it in the bud.

Morag is absolutely right. It has the makings of a toxic relationship, and while we're not accusing your fiancee of abuse now, it DOES have the makings of it. Emotional control, manipulation, putting his feelings before your personal physical comfort, treating you like an object that reflects on him rather than a person, all could spell some very serious issues down the road.

No man is ever worth sacrificing your bodily autonomy, rights, mental integrity or beliefs for. And if he thinks he has a say in your persona appearance, then he probably thinks he has a say in who you hang out with, what you say, what you think, what you believe. No matter how much you love him, if he won't see you and value you as an individual person, he is not worth it.

[MeadowRae]

Morag is absolutely right. It has the makings of a toxic relationship, and while we're not accusing your fiancee of abuse now, it DOES have the makings of it. Emotional control, manipulation, putting his feelings before your personal physical comfort, treating you like an object that reflects on him rather than a person, all could spell some very serious issues down the road.

No man is ever worth sacrificing your bodily autonomy, rights, mental integrity or beliefs for. And if he thinks he has a say in your persona appearance, then he probably thinks he has a say in who you hang out with, what you say, what you think, what you believe. No matter how much you love him, if he won't see you and value you as an individual person, he is not worth it.

As someone who has been in an abusive relationship, I 100% agree. My ex would always want me to dress "sexier," which I was uncomfortable with. I am the opposite in that I would rather be covered up and couldn't imagine going anywhere without a bra on. I was one of those girls who developed early in middle school, I have had an eating disorder, and my breasts have been a subject of interest for people most of my life. I usually try to hide them as much as possible.  He was always insistent that I wear my clothes tighter, then he would show me off. I didn't feel attractive. I felt uncomfortable. If your fiance is pushing you to do something that makes you feel uncomfortable, that makes you feel like anything less than your authentic self-that is not just a simple argument. At the very least he's disregarding how you feel, at worst it is about control.

[Emma Eldritch]

Buuuuut the problem is that Fiancé is "uncomfortable" with the idea of me wearing one because he thinks other guys will look at me, including his friends.

I'd dump him.

I firmly believe that there's no way in hell a bra can actually be beneficial to anything.

If your tits are huge, NOT wearing a bra hurts like hell. I envy you bralette girls more than words can convey.

He's got this mentality of "what you do with your body is a direct reflection of me and what I do." Like he's not fucking sitting there looking like a walking cucumber. He has no fashion sense other than "dressing up" means wearing jeans or khaki cargo shorts and a shirt that aren't grease stained. I love him so much but he doesn't get to tell me how to dress when all he does is "ooh let me style my hair even though I'm a mechanic and it literally doesn't matter."

I'd DEFINITELY dump him.

[missgraceless]

I'd dump him.

If your tits are huge, NOT wearing a bra hurts like hell. I envy you bralette girls more than words can convey.

I'd DEFINITELY dump him.

I know the way I wrote my original post sounds incredibly abusive and I'm sure anyone who goes through my other posts complaining about Fiancé sound the same way, but here's the thing. Whenever I write anything like this, I'm in the middle of a BPD rage which makes literally everything The Worst Thing Ever. I bitch and moan and blow everything way out of proportion.

I know what abusive relationships are like. I've been the victim of one, and believe it or not, I'm currently the abuser. I know I am. Read any bad BPD book (borderlines are all manipulative and abusive!!1!). Fiancé has put up with so much of my shit over the past 5 years, I don't know why he's still with me. I'm trying to change and get help for my BPD, but it's hard with no health insurance. I know I need to be in therapy. I probably even need to be in a psych ward for a little while. But I can't right now. So I deal with it the best I can.

Yes, Fiancé said he was uncomfortable with me not wearing a "proper" bra (my quote, not his), but I'm gonna sit him down and explain (hopefully sans yelling) that it's my body and I'm not responsible for what other people think or do or feel, and that it's not okay for him to say the things he did.

My point is, all of y'all saying that he's abusive and dump him, it just isn't happening.

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[Emma Eldritch]

My point is, all of y'all saying that he's abusive and dump him, it just isn't happening.

I'm not telling you what to do. I'm saying I'd dump him for the khakis alone.

[Morag]

My point is, all of y'all saying that he's abusive and dump him, it just isn't happening.

No one said that.

[Oíche]

I also have a male fiancé (I am 25, he is 24) so I will add my perspective if you don't mind.  I'll be quite frank with you.


My fiance has zero input regarding my underwear and choice of bra in particular. This is because it is none of his business and he would agree 100%. He has about as much choice in what I do/do not wear as I have in his underwear choices, which is zero. That is a personal choice based on preference/comfort needs and is an adult decision.
Quite frankly (and with respect), I think your fiancé's issue is ridiculous nonsense- no one CARES if you are wearing a bra or not and honestly I doubt anyone would even notice (unless you have enormous ones bouncing off your kneecaps as you walk without a bra!). Being a smaller cup size but not flat, I have worn bralettes and gone braless on many occasions and you can't tell- especially in a hoodie of all things. I have gone to university, work, supermarkets braless and no-one could tell and no-one would be looking anyway in general. People have better things to do.
Many of my friends go braless often also for many reasons! It is surprisingly common.

My own fiancé would view his discomfort and idea that people could tell you weren't wearing one as the height of immaturity. It needs to be nipped in the bud.
In particular this part: 'He's got this mentality of "what you do with your body is a direct reflection of me and what I do."' That is probably the most immature thing I have read all week and a grown man should be LONG past this nonsense, particularly one who is planning to marry. It is very insulting and I personally would not tolerate it in my relationship nor would my fiancé even think it.
If my fiancé heard this from a friend you can guarantee he would call it out for being very insulting and honestly, childish (just being straight with you!).

Wear what you want to and feel comfortable in, let him be uncomfortable if he wants (remember it is his choice to take this view)- it is not your concern and will hopefully make him realise how silly his mentality is when no-one cares other than him.

A particular friend of mine has a big chest ( upwards of a big F or G cup easily!) and rarely wears bras, especially under hoodies. I had no idea for years until she mentioned it one day when we were discussing the best stores for fittings. You couldn't tell, and I doubt anyone else could either. Her long-term boyfriend doesn't care at all and would probably find it weird that your fiancé does.

If you are going to marry this man, this needs to be nipped in bud immediately. A grown man shouldn't be even thinking that he can say this to his partner, it is not respectful at all. I'm actually amazed this is an issue at that stage of a relationship, I'm seriously shocked.
If discussion descends into yelling I would seriously look at this man carefully, that shouldn't even be a possibility in a mature marriage-directed relationship. Something you clearly know already having mentioned that you have experienced abusive relationships in the past.  It shouldn't even NEED a discussion, I would just go ahead if I were you and let him sulk if he wants to be silly. 

Quite honestly, you shouldn't even have to discuss this or explain anything. Your underwear choice is very minor and definitely doesn't need to be discussed with anyone other than someone fitting you for a bra! 
You shouldn't be fighting about something like this- period.

[Hariti]

*bra and boob talk. Obviously this applies to anyone male, female or anywhere in between who wears a bra (or doesn't for whatever reason.) This is mainly a rant but advice/discussion is obviously welcome.

(Also it's in Family Life because of my fights with Fiancé)

So the past couple weeks I've been really getting tired of wearing bras. They're uncomfortable and I don't like them one bit. Rather than go completely braless like I would love to do (but society says OMG she's not wearing a bra how dare she?!) I've decided to go the bralette route rather than regular underwire/push-up bras. I bought one yesterday and it's the most comfortable thing I've ever worn (aside from au natural).

Buuuuut the problem is that Fiancé is "uncomfortable" with the idea of me wearing one because he thinks other guys will look at me, including his friends. I stopped caring what other people think about me nearly a decade ago, but he still very much does.

This isn't the first time we've fought about this. A couple weeks ago we got into the first fight because I wore a hoodie with no bra to Walmart (gasp!) with him. I firmly believe that there's no way in hell a bra can actually be beneficial to anything. I'd read some article about a French study that "proves" bras make your breasts sag more than without, but I dunno if it's true or not. Don't really care. Still don't like them.

But Fiancé is so stuck on society's idea that we as women (read: carriers of breasts) NEED TO HAVE OUR PERFECTLY SPHERICAL TITS UP TO OUR CHINS OHMYGOD.

He's got this mentality of "what you do with your body is a direct reflection of me and what I do." Like he's not fucking sitting there looking like a walking cucumber. He has no fashion sense other than "dressing up" means wearing jeans or khaki cargo shorts and a shirt that aren't grease stained. I love him so much but he doesn't get to tell me how to dress when all he does is "ooh let me style my hair even though I'm a mechanic and it literally doesn't matter."

I mean I'm gonna still wear the bralettes as much as possible because it's so more comfortable but how do I get him to see that it's my goddamn body and I'm gonna do what I want with it no matter what he says, without constantly fighting about it?





(I tried to be as trans/other gender inclusive as possible, I apologize if I came across as rude/assuming/what have you. It was not my intention.)

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I don't want to say anything negative about your finace, but... wow. He sounds incredibly socially conservative. It's your chest, you choose what to wear on it. He doesn't own it, you do, and your choices are your own, not his.

Also, why does society expect women to wear bras anyway? They only became common in the 1920s, it's not like they are an age old convention, and their original intent was to *enhance* women's sex appeal, not conceal it.