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Author Topic: Your faith and criminal punishment  (Read 2475 times)

sailor

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Your faith and criminal punishment
« on: July 26, 2012, 11:38:02 am »
In light of the recent shooting in Colorado, and other shootings around the world ...

What does your religion have to say about punishment for various crimes?

Is the death penalty acceptable for some crimes?

Celtag

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Re: Your faith and criminal punishment
« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2012, 11:43:55 am »
Quote from: sailor;66091
In light of the recent shooting in Colorado, and other shootings around the world ...

What does your religion have to say about punishment for various crimes?

Is the death penalty acceptable for some crimes?
The ancient Celts would have delt with this in a very quick fashion. Probably a beheading. But in all seriousness I think it would be allowed under the right circumstances. I have no problem with it for people that murder people in cold blood.
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stephyjh

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Your faith and criminal punishment
« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2012, 12:37:05 pm »
Quote from: sailor;66091
In light of the recent shooting in Colorado, and other shootings around the world ...

What does your religion have to say about punishment for various crimes?

Is the death penalty acceptable for some crimes?

I'm reasonably sure that my gods, as Celtag said, would be fine with the death penalty. I have serious reservations about it myself, though. The reports are saying that this was a very sick man who shouldn't have been left to get to that point. The signs of his illness were there, but no one saw. I don't want to take away from the horror of what he did, but I think the compassionate sentence would be intensive mental health care for as long as it takes to untangle the problems that made him a mass murderer, rather than killing him.
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Lokabrenna

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Re: Your faith and criminal punishment
« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2012, 12:45:00 pm »
Quote from: sailor;66091
In light of the recent shooting in Colorado, and other shootings around the world ...

What does your religion have to say about punishment for various crimes?

Is the death penalty acceptable for some crimes?


Heathens back in the day would outlaw someone from the community for serious crimes, so you could pretty much kill them and face no penalty for doing so, but I oppose the death penalty in general because there's always a chance that innocent people are the ones paying for the crime while the real criminals go free.

Juniperberry

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Re: Your faith and criminal punishment
« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2012, 12:58:42 pm »
Quote from: sailor;66091
In light of the recent shooting in Colorado, and other shootings around the world ...

What does your religion have to say about punishment for various crimes?

Is the death penalty acceptable for some crimes?

Its really not that different than today. I'm not an expert on law codes but afaik there would be a trial of sorts and then a punishment. It could either be ritual execution, outlawry, or fines.

The interesting thing about outlawry, which we technically don't do today, is that it dehumanizes the criminal. They're no longer within the laws of man so a person could steal from them, murder them or commit other crimes against them without repercussions. I think if we followed that today, and set Holmes free, he would fare far worse than within the judicial system.  

Psychologically we still practice outlawry. Outlaws were cast out because they were no longer human. They had to live outside society and in the treacherous wild because they were monsters. Just as trolls stopped being trolls once they were identified, known, and no longer a threat it could also go the other way. Inhumane deeds and vulgar crimes made one a troll. And we still do that. We still call Holmes, Gacy, and Dahmer monsters. Evil incarnate. Not human. Holmes will be the stuff of nightmares for many. Anyone going to a movie will, in some way, be afraid of the possible monster at the gate.

But, as a modern heathen, my views on it are based on my society's laws. He'll get a trial, a sentence, and that's the end of it. I could pray to Tyr that justice is served, and that he gets what he deserves based on our system.

Eta: Lokabrenna beat me to it :) (Had to step away for a minute)
« Last Edit: July 26, 2012, 01:03:13 pm by Juniperberry »
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Jezebel

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Re: Your faith and criminal punishment
« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2012, 01:31:13 pm »
Quote from: sailor;66091
In light of the recent shooting in Colorado, and other shootings around the world ...

What does your religion have to say about punishment for various crimes?

Is the death penalty acceptable for some crimes?

 
Before formal laws were introduced by the ancient greeks, murders were settled by the affected families and when the first laws were established the punishment for murder was exile.

May make me petty but I agree with both of these forms of justice.

Nachtigall

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Re: Your faith and criminal punishment
« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2012, 01:36:57 pm »
Quote from: sailor;66091
In light of the recent shooting in Colorado, and other shootings around the world ...

What does your religion have to say about punishment for various crimes?

Is the death penalty acceptable for some crimes?

 
My Gods don't have any problems with death punishment when it is necessary, and in general, neither do I.

Faemon

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Re: Your faith and criminal punishment
« Reply #7 on: July 26, 2012, 01:41:48 pm »
Quote from: sailor;66091
What does your religion have to say about punishment for various crimes?

Is the death penalty acceptable for some crimes?


I claim no religion, but I have faith in humanity.

Long version: by Daniel C. Dennett, Professor of Philosophy at Tufts University.

Short version: Any sufficiently thorough understanding of any conflict will bring about a rehabilitative, rather than retributive consequence for a crime. This means not only rehabilitating the criminal as an individual, but processing the victims rather than teaching/expecting/reinforcing that they obtain closure in one specific way, and rehabilitating a society where this could even happen.

One aspect of such a society is the fact that the resources for this can't be fully supplied: whether it be funds, time, focus, space... let alone candor. Especially if the crime is taking something that can never be replaced or regained-- that often leaves a lack. Rehabilitation would be ideal, but we don't live in an ideal world. So when it comes to justice, if one would be in a decision-making position-- well, most often I'd think that one does what one must.
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Shine

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Re: Your faith and criminal punishment
« Reply #8 on: July 26, 2012, 03:01:04 pm »
Quote from: sailor;66091
In light of the recent shooting in Colorado, and other shootings around the world ...

What does your religion have to say about punishment for various crimes?

Is the death penalty acceptable for some crimes?

 
We are all cattle of Ra, so from the Kemetic perspective we have to be very careful about using death as punishment. I'm not sure about all the ins and outs of ancient Egyptian law, but I'm pretty sure that the Egyptians didn't have much problem with putting to death particularly heinous criminals.

And neither do I.
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wadjet

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Re: Your faith and criminal punishment
« Reply #9 on: July 26, 2012, 03:27:56 pm »
Quote from: sailor;66091
In light of the recent shooting in Colorado, and other shootings around the world ...

What does your religion have to say about punishment for various crimes?

Is the death penalty acceptable for some crimes?


I'm essentially seconding triple_entendre, but....

I think people have the wrong attitude about "punishment" for crimes. It is more or less proven than punishment doesn't do diddly squat to stop bad behavior. Smacking a child won't stop them from being bad; learning the benefits of being good is what stops them. It is the same with adults.

So the more important aspect of dealing with criminals is protecting the rights of other citizens. Therefore, the "punishment" should reflect this. The ideal option is rehabilitation, but we have a really poor system for that. It needs serious work.

As for capital punishment: is this man going to continue to be a danger to himself and others? Is there absolutely nothing we can do for him? Kill him. It is a mercy to him and a natural process. If there is a dangerous animal stalking around you, it is wise to deal with it.

My beliefs are that killing is wrong but necessary. Flaws are a part of the function of the Universe. Not everything is Good.

However, I am indeed stating that no, I don't think automatic killing of even the worst criminals is acceptable. The mechanical systematic murder of human beings is far more chilling and inhuman than the crimes of someone mentally ill, ignorant, broken, or hateful.

Melamphoros

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Re: Your faith and criminal punishment
« Reply #10 on: July 26, 2012, 04:05:35 pm »
Quote from: triple_entendre;66110

Short version: Any sufficiently thorough understanding of any conflict will bring about a rehabilitative, rather than retributive consequence for a crime. This means not only rehabilitating the criminal as an individual, but processing the victims rather than teaching/expecting/reinforcing that they obtain closure in one specific way, and rehabilitating a society where this could even happen.

One aspect of such a society is the fact that the resources for this can't be fully supplied: whether it be funds, time, focus, space... let alone candor. Especially if the crime is taking something that can never be replaced or regained-- that often leaves a lack. Rehabilitation would be ideal, but we don't live in an ideal world. So when it comes to justice, if one would be in a decision-making position-- well, most often I'd think that one does what one must.

 
The problem with this is that there is no way a serial killer (or other sociopathic criminal) can be rehabilitated.  They get off on manipulating people so if they appear as though they were rehabilitated, it's just their way of getting back on the streets and doing gods know what else.


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Stardancer

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Re: Your faith and criminal punishment
« Reply #11 on: July 26, 2012, 04:47:13 pm »
Quote from: Melamphoros;66131
The problem with this is that there is no way a serial killer (or other sociopathic criminal) can be rehabilitated.  They get off on manipulating people so if they appear as though they were rehabilitated, it's just their way of getting back on the streets and doing gods know what else.

 
ABB who killed about 70 in Norway a year ago will probably never be rehabilitated. Also, Norway will NOT reinstate the death penalty. (We did for Quisling. It won't happen again.) ABB will probably be in prison for as long as we allow (21 years IIRC), and then put under surveillance as mentally ill for the rest of his life.

I'm fine with that. Killing is no more right within the law than outside it.

Some of my gods may think otherwise, but we don't let it influence our relationship.
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Yei

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Re: Your faith and criminal punishment
« Reply #12 on: July 26, 2012, 07:09:12 pm »
Quote from: triple_entendre;66110

Short version: Any sufficiently thorough understanding of any conflict will bring about a rehabilitative, rather than retributive consequence for a crime. This means not only rehabilitating the criminal as an individual, but processing the victims rather than teaching/expecting/reinforcing that they obtain closure in one specific way, and rehabilitating a society where this could even happen.

 
I have to say I'm not sold on rehabilitation. Is it really possible, and if it is possible, is it worth the cost? In any case the idea of rehabilitation seems very Christian, and I don't mean that in a nasty way. It just seems very similar to the idea of 'saving' someone's soul by proxy. This may be part of the reason I don't quite get it.

Other than that though law is more than just punishing criminals. It's also about authority, society and victims. Governments need to show control along with solidarity with the victims and an awareness of community needs. I think these aspects are too often overlooked.

However, I would say that the best legal system would be one that is clear and comprehensible.

RandallS

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Re: Your faith and criminal punishment
« Reply #13 on: July 26, 2012, 09:23:11 pm »
Quote from: Melamphoros;66131
The problem with this is that there is no way a serial killer (or other sociopathic criminal) can be rehabilitated.

We don't actually know that to be true. We do not know of any way now, but that does not mean that no method will ever be found.

I have no problems with the death penalty for truly heinous crimes, provided that the criminal justice system is set up to ensure that no innocent person is ever executed regardless of his race, religion, lack of wealth, etc. Unfortunately, the criminal justice system in the US is not set up that way.
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Faemon

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Re: Your faith and criminal punishment
« Reply #14 on: July 26, 2012, 10:46:16 pm »
Quote from: Melamphoros;66131
The problem with this is that there is no way a serial killer (or other sociopathic criminal) can be rehabilitated.

 
Ergo... we do what we must. (That means I'm for the death penalty, since that didn't seem to be clear. Not that I'd celebrate it or toss it out willy-nilly, it's just that there are cases where I don't see any better, other way.)
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