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Author Topic: What If Your God/desses Asked You To Do Something Contrary To Your Nature?  (Read 3988 times)

veggiewolf

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Re: What If Your God/desses Asked You To Do Something Contrary To Your Nature?
« Reply #15 on: October 22, 2012, 12:25:40 pm »
Quote from: HeartShadow;77640
ah, but I'm a guru with uppity minions that don't obey me.  I'm allowed to be an oddball religious leader. ....by being rational.


The handbook doesn't say anything about being obedient.  Of course, it also mentions yarn 2,764 times in 200 pages, so...
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veggiewolf

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Re: What If Your God/desses Asked You To Do Something Contrary To Your Nature?
« Reply #16 on: October 22, 2012, 12:27:13 pm »
Quote from: Darkhawk;77363
You know, I can totally see my primary god asking me to do something outside my ethics.  It would be something He would find convenient, I suspect, and thus He would get the thing He fancied or He would get the pleasure of having me tell Him to fuck right off.


This.  Making a choice is usually the point, after all.
Fluid Morality - my spiritual blog
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stephyjh

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Re: What If Your God/desses Asked You To Do Something Contrary To Your Nature?
« Reply #17 on: October 22, 2012, 07:02:43 pm »
Quote from: Aster Breo;77216
As others have said, while the gods may see and know much more than we do, faith shouldn't be blind or automatic. I did not check my brain or my conscience at the door when I dedicated myself to Brighid, and I don't believe She would value me if I had done so.  I believe She expects Her people to think and question.

(SNIPPAGE)

I don't think we can usually know in advance what our gods will ask of us, nor do I think we can usually see all aspects of a situation.  But I think we have an obligation as thinking beings to try to be as informed as possible about our own actions and to take responsibility for them.  "Brighid made me do it" is not going to fly in court.  ;)

~ Aster

 
This, exactly.
A heretic blast has been blown in the west,
That what is no sense must be nonsense.

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PhantomQueen

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Re: What If Your God/desses Asked You To Do Something Contrary To Your Nature?
« Reply #18 on: October 23, 2012, 06:33:15 pm »
Quote from: EJay;77148
Do we only hang with our deities because we think THEY think like us?  Or are we true servants and should do as our God/desses bid?

 
I don't go blindly along doing as I'm told.  I was one of those people that got a mind to think with, not one of those holding the door for others to walk in. I won't go killing anyone just because I was 'told to'.  I just don't want to have a rubber room with a view all to myself!  

Having said that, I"ve been told/urged/whatever you want to call it to do things that are out of my comfort zone.  At the time of being told to do it, I understand the reasoning behind it.  Usually it's a teaching thing to get me to get out of my shell or improve on myself.  These kind of things I don't mind at all.  What's a bit of discomfort when it's all inthe aid of self improvement?

Nyktelios

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Re: What If Your God/desses Asked You To Do Something Contrary To Your Nature?
« Reply #19 on: October 23, 2012, 07:20:05 pm »
Quote from: EJay;77148
I just ran into a reference of Abraham being told by God to sacrifice his son, Isaac, and it got me to thinking.

If it'd been me, my response would've been, Really?  Then I would have removed all symbols of that deity from my house and hired an exorcist to remove all traces of any energy left behind.  And when the angel appeared and said, Just kidding! I'd've said, Haha, very funny, and slammed the door in their face.

Now that's extreme but it got me to wondering how far we, as pagans, will go to follow the "laws" of our beliefs in order to please/placate our deities.

Would any of you step outside your normal values if you truly believed your deity was telling you to?  Or would you jump ship, like I said I would in my little farce?

Do we only hang with our deities because we think THEY think like us?  Or are we true servants and should do as our God/desses bid?

 
This is a hard question to answer because it's kind of beyond my own paradigm. I don't really see the deities as beings that would ask strange things of their followers, or are even that interested in human activity. Not to be offensive to anybody, but I've always thought that religious people of any tradition who thought that God(s) spoke to them were narcissistic and delusional, bordering on mentally ill. One would think that even if the gods are actual beings rather than projections of human culture in symbolic guise, which I doubt, they would have better things to do than be the voice in some silly human's head. Maybe I'm just a blasphemous heretic. In that case, I probably wouldn't do something odd if a deity was asking me to, anyway. I'd probably just dismiss it as a delusion and try to get more sleep.

Maps

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Re: What If Your God/desses Asked You To Do Something Contrary To Your Nature?
« Reply #20 on: October 23, 2012, 07:50:41 pm »
Quote from: EJay;77148
I just ran into a reference of Abraham being told by God to sacrifice his son, Isaac, and it got me to thinking.

If it'd been me, my response would've been, Really?  Then I would have removed all symbols of that deity from my house and hired an exorcist to remove all traces of any energy left behind.  And when the angel appeared and said, Just kidding! I'd've said, Haha, very funny, and slammed the door in their face.

Now that's extreme but it got me to wondering how far we, as pagans, will go to follow the "laws" of our beliefs in order to please/placate our deities.

Would any of you step outside your normal values if you truly believed your deity was telling you to?  Or would you jump ship, like I said I would in my little farce?

Do we only hang with our deities because we think THEY think like us?  Or are we true servants and should do as our God/desses bid?

Autosacrifice was pretty darned scary and intimidating before I started doing it. It wasn't "in my nature" to think that gods would have any need for blood, let alone use it as a form of nourishment. But then I divined on it, and discovered that it was absolutely positively necessary in order to begin worship with these gods and not have it be completely in vain. It was either my blood, or someone/something else's, and the latter is VERY much not in my nature, so I went with the former.

Now it's no big deal, and I have a much more profound understanding of the practice and what it means within the context of the old Maya worldview.

So if I were asked to do something else that would make me seriously think twice, I'd do just that-- think twice about it before dismissing it outright. Because while I do have veto power, there are difficult lessons to be learned out there, and they don't often look appetizing at a first glance.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2012, 07:51:01 pm by Maps »

EJay

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Re: What If Your God/desses Asked You To Do Something Contrary To Your Nature?
« Reply #21 on: October 24, 2012, 04:35:00 am »
Quote from: Maps;77830
Autosacrifice was pretty darned scary and intimidating before I started doing it. It wasn't "in my nature" to think that gods would have any need for blood, let alone use it as a form of nourishment. But then I divined on it, and discovered that it was absolutely positively necessary in order to begin worship with these gods and not have it be completely in vain. It was either my blood, or someone/something else's, and the latter is VERY much not in my nature, so I went with the former.

Now it's no big deal, and I have a much more profound understanding of the practice and what it means within the context of the old Maya worldview.

So if I were asked to do something else that would make me seriously think twice, I'd do just that-- think twice about it before dismissing it outright. Because while I do have veto power, there are difficult lessons to be learned out there, and they don't often look appetizing at a first glance.


Interesting.  This is right along where I had questions.

So one question is:  you believe you have the option about dismissing something outright, even if your gods tell you otherwise?  Auto-sacrifice is a pretty serious commitment, I would think.  I don't know that much about the Mayan gods, but it sounds as if you're dedicated to their service and since they demand blood, I'd think it would be hard to opt out of their wishes.  Do you have the opportunity to opt out of their service?  Or would you become a heretic, as Randall asked in another post?

My second question is more personal and I won't be offended if you don't want to answer, and I hope you aren't offended that I'm asking the question.  I didn't know the Mayan gods required blood.  I don't  really even know how to ask the question.....May I ask how you give it to them?
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Yei

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Re: What If Your God/desses Asked You To Do Something Contrary To Your Nature?
« Reply #22 on: October 24, 2012, 08:28:46 am »
Quote from: EJay;77148
I just ran into a reference of Abraham being told by God to sacrifice his son, Isaac, and it got me to thinking.

If it'd been me, my response would've been, Really?  Then I would have removed all symbols of that deity from my house and hired an exorcist to remove all traces of any energy left behind.  And when the angel appeared and said, Just kidding! I'd've said, Haha, very funny, and slammed the door in their face.

Now that's extreme but it got me to wondering how far we, as pagans, will go to follow the "laws" of our beliefs in order to please/placate our deities.

Would any of you step outside your normal values if you truly believed your deity was telling you to?  Or would you jump ship, like I said I would in my little farce?

Do we only hang with our deities because we think THEY think like us?  Or are we true servants and should do as our God/desses bid?

 
We all have to do unpleasant things in life all the time. Sometimes the hardest lessons are the most important and the unpleasant tasks are the most necessary. So if a god asked me to do something I would think long and hard before refusing. Sometimes things just need to be done irrespective of our likes and dislikes, and we can't always take the easy road when faced with difficult questions or tasks.
And after all that, my own morality is not infallible, and expecting the gods to bend their needs to that morality seems to me to be self centred.

SkySamuelle

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Re: What If Your God/desses Asked You To Do Something Contrary To Your Nature?
« Reply #23 on: October 24, 2012, 10:33:33 am »
Quote from: Carnelian;77826
Not to be offensive to anybody, but I've always thought that religious people of any tradition who thought that God(s) spoke to them were narcissistic and delusional, bordering on mentally ill.


Color me confused- how is this not offensive, within the framework of a conversation where you know most of partecipants wrote about communicating with their deity/ies?

:confused: If I went in a discussion  about the Soft-polytheism-versus-hard-polytheism paradigm without the intention of ruffling feathers , I wouldn't join the conversation saying 'well, the idea of deities as archetypes/vague energy-flavors is ridiculus and people believing it obviously seem delusional to me'.

While I am sure your opinion is shared by many and I  don't consider myself offended in any way by it, I am curious about why you would think  it wasn't rude to frame it in a way that implies people partecipating in a discussion about human-divine-comunication by talking about human-divine comunication are insane or narcisistic.
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Maps

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Re: What If Your God/desses Asked You To Do Something Contrary To Your Nature?
« Reply #24 on: October 24, 2012, 12:13:13 pm »
Quote from: EJay;77882
Interesting.  This is right along where I had questions.

So one question is:  you believe you have the option about dismissing something outright, even if your gods tell you otherwise?  Auto-sacrifice is a pretty serious commitment, I would think.  I don't know that much about the Mayan gods, but it sounds as if you're dedicated to their service and since they demand blood, I'd think it would be hard to opt out of their wishes.  Do you have the opportunity to opt out of their service?  Or would you become a heretic, as Randall asked in another post?

For me, no consequences beyond them no longer having any influence or standing in my world because they up and left. For their people, though, maybe. I don't know.

Quote
My second question is more personal and I won't be offended if you don't want to answer, and I hope you aren't offended that I'm asking the question.  I didn't know the Mayan gods required blood.  I don't  really even know how to ask the question.....May I ask how you give it to them?

They do, and they traditionally required human and animal sacrifice too. I don't personally use lancets (though I would highly recommend it to anyone else thinking about performing autosacrifice), but a sterilized xacto blade to make very small incisions that actually give me less blood than a lancet would, typically. I wipe it off on a piece of paper and burn it, usually making an attempt to direct the smoke outside if I'm indoors.

Blood sacrifice isn't really practiced anymore at all (maaaybe the Lacandones since they're one of the few, if not only, Maya group that managed to avoid colonization), though animals are still slaughtered for some of the modern and syncretized incarnations of the old gods.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2012, 12:13:31 pm by Maps »

Nyktelios

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Re: What If Your God/desses Asked You To Do Something Contrary To Your Nature?
« Reply #25 on: October 24, 2012, 08:43:02 pm »
Quote from: SkySamuelle;77897
Color me confused- how is this not offensive, within the framework of a conversation where you know most of partecipants wrote about communicating with their deity/ies?

:confused: If I went in a discussion  about the Soft-polytheism-versus-hard-polytheism paradigm without the intention of ruffling feathers , I wouldn't join the conversation saying 'well, the idea of deities as archetypes/vague energy-flavors is ridiculus and people believing it obviously seem delusional to me'.

While I am sure your opinion is shared by many and I  don't consider myself offended in any way by it, I am curious about why you would think  it wasn't rude to frame it in a way that implies people partecipating in a discussion about human-divine-comunication by talking about human-divine comunication are insane or narcisistic.


I guess I was trying to highlight that it was my intent to express my opinion, not to be directly insulting, even if that was a side effect. I do think it's a bit nutty that people think deities talk to them, and that they think they are so special that the powers that govern the universe want to chit-chat with them. However, I don't know any more than anybody else, so my opinions don't necessarily mean anything. I'm just contributing a different, and apparently rude, perspective.

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Re: What If Your God/desses Asked You To Do Something Contrary To Your Nature?
« Reply #26 on: October 25, 2012, 12:57:47 am »
Quote from: Carnelian;77995
they think they are so special that the powers that govern the universe want to chit-chat with them.

 
See, now, that's one of the things that pushes what you're saying into "rude" territory.  You're making the assumption that such folks a) necessarily think they're special, b) are conversing with universe-governing powers.

The entities I have direct interaction with?  Are not "the powers that govern the universe".

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Re: What If Your God/desses Asked You To Do Something Contrary To Your Nature?
« Reply #27 on: October 25, 2012, 02:47:18 am »
Quote from: Carnelian;77995
I guess I was trying to highlight that it was my intent to express my opinion, not to be directly insulting, even if that was a side effect. I do think it's a bit nutty that people think deities talk to them, and that they think they are so special that the powers that govern the universe want to chit-chat with them. However, I don't know any more than anybody else, so my opinions don't necessarily mean anything. I'm just contributing a different, and apparently rude, perspective.

 
Eh, but it's a side effect you are doing nothing to avoid, since you are not mincing words even after you were told your wording of your opinion was offensive -in the end the point for me is that - you could have worded your opinion/perspective in many ways, and you chose the most rude flavor twice in a row. I assume that, if someone doesn't mind sounding insulting in a conversation, then they are okay with it. :whis:

For the rest, I can't assume to talk on the account of other people who have conversations with their gods, but most of people I know that shares my 'habit' and I don't think being a special snowflake or that deities communicating with humans is some extraordinary bother for Them. As you said, it's a different perspective.
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EJay

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Re: What If Your God/desses Asked You To Do Something Contrary To Your Nature?
« Reply #28 on: October 25, 2012, 07:26:54 am »
Quote from: Maps;77914

So why do the Mayan gods require blood?  Is it a similar test of faith like Abraham had?  Is it a physical need they have?

Again, I really want to learn and am not trying to be offensive.

I understand the importance of blood.  As whacked as this may sound, I'm a knife collector and every knife I own, whether for looks or for usefulness, has tasted blood, which is my own.  It's almost a baptismal thing.

What is the need of the Mayan gods for blood?
« Last Edit: October 25, 2012, 12:13:37 pm by Marilyn/Absentminded »
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Maps

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Re: What If Your God/desses Asked You To Do Something Contrary To Your Nature?
« Reply #29 on: October 25, 2012, 11:37:13 am »
Quote from: EJay;78035
So why do the Mayan gods require blood?  Is it a similar test of faith like Abraham had?  Is it a physical need they have?

Again, I really want to learn and am not trying to be offensive.

I understand the importance of blood.  As whacked as this may sound, I'm a knife collector and every knife I own, whether for looks or for usefulness, has tasted blood, which is my own.  It's almost a baptismal thing.

What is the need of the Mayan gods for blood?

 
Just fyi, you're missing your quote.

It's a reciprocity thing, and it's a nourishment thing. It's part of the covenant that humans have with the gods: repayment for the act of creation, in both the primordial and ongoing sense, though most importantly because they bled themselves to give birth to humanity.

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