collapse

* Recent Posts

Author Topic: Pagan guy talk  (Read 4112 times)

Altair

  • Adept Member
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Location: New York, New York
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 3072
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 445
  • Fly high and make the world follow
    • View Profile
    • Songs of the Metamythos
  • Religion: tree-hugging pagan
  • Preferred Pronouns: he/him/his
Pagan guy talk
« on: December 27, 2017, 11:56:39 am »
The modern neopagan movement is diverse to say the least, but a number of its religions offer clear archetypes for women. For example, the maid-mother-crone trinity walks a woman through the stages of life.

Men, I think, have less to go on in today's paganism. (Maybe because much of neopaganism evolved in response to centuries of patriarchal religion.) What male archetypes have you found meaningful in paganism? Do you think there's anything especially male that gets addressed or needs addressing in a pagan spiritual context?
The first song sets the wheel in motion / The second is a song of love / The third song tells of Her devotion / The fourth cries joy from the sky above
The fifth song binds our fate to silence / and bids us live each moment well / The sixth unleashes rage and violence / The seventh song has truth to tell
The last song echoes through the ages / to ask its question all night long / And close the circle on these pages / These, the metamythos songs

Jainarayan

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Oct 2014
  • Posts: 606
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 168
    • View Profile
Re: Pagan guy talk
« Reply #1 on: December 27, 2017, 01:20:43 pm »
What male archetypes have you found meaningful in paganism?

The warrior/protector, the one who does "the right thing" at all costs to himself:

1. Rama: he did the right thing, did his duty at great personal and emotional cost to himself.
2. Hanuman: unwavering and unequalled devotee and loyal friend of Rama.
3. Lakshmana: younger brother of Rama, accompanying him on a 14 year exile and battle to rescue Rama's wife Sita.
4. Thor: punch first, talk later (not always a good approach :D), protects devotees, is honorable and truthful.
5. Guanyu and Xuan wu: deified Chinese generals, loyal and unwavering.



Altair

  • Adept Member
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Location: New York, New York
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 3072
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 445
  • Fly high and make the world follow
    • View Profile
    • Songs of the Metamythos
  • Religion: tree-hugging pagan
  • Preferred Pronouns: he/him/his
Re: Pagan guy talk
« Reply #2 on: December 27, 2017, 03:30:46 pm »
The warrior/protector, the one who does "the right thing" at all costs to himself:

1. Rama: he did the right thing, did his duty at great personal and emotional cost to himself.
2. Hanuman: unwavering and unequalled devotee and loyal friend of Rama.
3. Lakshmana: younger brother of Rama, accompanying him on a 14 year exile and battle to rescue Rama's wife Sita.
4. Thor: punch first, talk later (not always a good approach :D), protects devotees, is honorable and truthful.
5. Guanyu and Xuan wu: deified Chinese generals, loyal and unwavering.

These are great (but I'll take exception to 4)! To similarly take one's gods as archetypes, I guess I have 3 primary ones--
--warrior-king (very similar to your warrior/protector, but even more alpha male)
--wizard-scholar
--lawgiver-judge

Though with my archetypes, there are as much warnings in their myths about the pitfalls of these attributes going too far, as there are exhortations to embrace their virtues.

A fourth male god of mine would be the Sacrifice--also in line with what you describe above; the guy who will do whatever it takes for the good of all, regardless the cost to himself.

Finally, about Thor: I can't relate to him. When I read the Prose Edda, I got increasingly uncomfortable with how there'd be some giant minding his own business, harming no one, and then Thor comes along and strikes him dead, just because. Maybe it's my tendency to identify with the underdog, but it bugged me.

BUT I have to ask: Why are these particularly male archetypes? Or are they? If not, what are?
The first song sets the wheel in motion / The second is a song of love / The third song tells of Her devotion / The fourth cries joy from the sky above
The fifth song binds our fate to silence / and bids us live each moment well / The sixth unleashes rage and violence / The seventh song has truth to tell
The last song echoes through the ages / to ask its question all night long / And close the circle on these pages / These, the metamythos songs

Jainarayan

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Oct 2014
  • Posts: 606
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 168
    • View Profile
Re: Pagan guy talk
« Reply #3 on: December 27, 2017, 04:55:13 pm »

Finally, about Thor: I can't relate to him. When I read the Prose Edda, I got increasingly uncomfortable with how there'd be some giant minding his own business, harming no one, and then Thor comes along and strikes him dead, just because.

I've heard that before. He's often thought of as a big bully. I've overlooked that aspect of him mainly because I identify with his other attributes... brash and rowdy; quick tempered but quick to calm down; a little slow on the uptake; willing to help and protect.

Quote
BUT I have to ask: Why are these particularly male archetypes? Or are they? If not, what are?

Probably testosterone-driven or fighters. Police forces, military service, etc. are overwhelmingly male. Not because women can't excel at it or kick ass as well as men in these situations, we know they can. But I think it's something that males in particular are drawn to. Just guessing.

ehbowen

  • Grand Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Location: Houston, Texas
  • *
  • Posts: 1396
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 286
  • A Ways Around the Bend...
    • View Profile
    • Streamliner Schedules
  • Religion: Southern Baptist
Re: Pagan guy talk
« Reply #4 on: December 27, 2017, 06:09:37 pm »
Not because women can't excel at it or kick ass as well as men in these situations, we know they can. But I think it's something that males in particular are drawn to. Just guessing.

If I wasn't already spoken for, I would find Gal Gadot's Wonder Woman very, very appealing. Just sayin'.
--------Eric H. Bowen
Where's the KABOOM? There was supposed to have been an Earth-shattering KABOOM!
Computers are like air conditioning. They become useless when you open Windows—Linus Torvalds.

Altair

  • Adept Member
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Location: New York, New York
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 3072
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 445
  • Fly high and make the world follow
    • View Profile
    • Songs of the Metamythos
  • Religion: tree-hugging pagan
  • Preferred Pronouns: he/him/his
Re: Pagan guy talk
« Reply #5 on: December 27, 2017, 09:22:36 pm »
Probably testosterone-driven or fighters. Police forces, military service, etc. are overwhelmingly male. Not because women can't excel at it or kick ass as well as men in these situations, we know they can. But I think it's something that males in particular are drawn to. Just guessing.

That makes a lot of sense. Esp. for nature-based pagans like myself, whose religion is grounded in the cycles of the world and in our own bodies, management of testosterone-tinged behavior would stand out as the signature male concern, as differentiating for us as women's issues of menstruation and motherhood (if at all) and menopause are for them.

Are there more archetypes (besides the ones you've already mentioned) from the various pagan traditions that address this? Are there paths that have effective men's mysteries, as robust as those for women, that speak directly or indirectly to our testosterone needs?

And are there archetypes that address our aging--as our signature testosterone fades--that can guide us through that life transition, the way maid-mother-crone speaks to women?
The first song sets the wheel in motion / The second is a song of love / The third song tells of Her devotion / The fourth cries joy from the sky above
The fifth song binds our fate to silence / and bids us live each moment well / The sixth unleashes rage and violence / The seventh song has truth to tell
The last song echoes through the ages / to ask its question all night long / And close the circle on these pages / These, the metamythos songs

Altair

  • Adept Member
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Location: New York, New York
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 3072
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 445
  • Fly high and make the world follow
    • View Profile
    • Songs of the Metamythos
  • Religion: tree-hugging pagan
  • Preferred Pronouns: he/him/his
Re: Pagan guy talk
« Reply #6 on: December 27, 2017, 09:26:23 pm »
Are there more archetypes (besides the ones you've already mentioned) from the various pagan traditions that address this? Are there paths that have effective men's mysteries, as robust as those for women, that speak directly or indirectly to our testosterone needs?

And are there archetypes that address our aging--as our signature testosterone fades--that can guide us through that life transition, the way maid-mother-crone speaks to women?

P.S. I apologize if all of this seems painfully obvious to some--perhaps there are traditions out there that deal with all this extensively--but as a guy who's mostly solitary in his path, I don't have much knowledge of what goes on inside covens that addresses male needs.
The first song sets the wheel in motion / The second is a song of love / The third song tells of Her devotion / The fourth cries joy from the sky above
The fifth song binds our fate to silence / and bids us live each moment well / The sixth unleashes rage and violence / The seventh song has truth to tell
The last song echoes through the ages / to ask its question all night long / And close the circle on these pages / These, the metamythos songs

CoyoteFeathers

  • Sr. Apprentice
  • ****
  • Join Date: Feb 2016
  • *
  • Posts: 70
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 28
    • View Profile
  • Religion: Vaguely Germanic and Celtic paganism + ancestor worship
  • Preferred Pronouns: she/her or they/them
Re: Pagan guy talk
« Reply #7 on: December 28, 2017, 12:19:20 am »
The modern neopagan movement is diverse to say the least, but a number of its religions offer clear archetypes for women. For example, the maid-mother-crone trinity walks a woman through the stages of life.

Men, I think, have less to go on in today's paganism. (Maybe because much of neopaganism evolved in response to centuries of patriarchal religion.) What male archetypes have you found meaningful in paganism? Do you think there's anything especially male that gets addressed or needs addressing in a pagan spiritual context?

I have seen the "child-warrior-sage" cycle as a male counterpart to the maiden-mother-crone. Both have their issues, particularly with the middle phase- not every man wants to be a warrior, and not every woman wants to be a mother- even metaphorically) and with the rather strict gendering of those roles.

The prodigious child archetype is something I see a lot, not just in Pagan religion but also in Christianity. Jesus Christ was rather devout as a child, as would be expected from the son of God (ehbown- correct me if I'm wrong). Taliesin, as the reborn-version of Gwion Bach ap Gwreang, had incredible knowledge and skill as a bard from contact with Ceridwen's potion. In a similar story, Fionn mac Cumhaill finds great wisdom as a child from the appropriately named Salmon of Wisdom. Infant Heracles wrestled two snakes to death. I'm sure there's more I don't know of, but from what I do know the archetype seems to be rather male-leaning.

As for being meaningful, I'm not so sure. It would be difficult to use a prodigious-child archetype as a role model or inspiration, given that most people who come into Paganism are already adults and/or it's not really under anyone's control whether they're a prodigy or not.

I'm rather a fan of the skillful artisan type, like the aforementioned Taliesin and Fionn mac Cumhaill. Lugh, while a great warrior, was also skilled in... pretty much everything, and on the Greek side of things there's Hephaestus as a god of smiths, carpenters, artisans, etc, etc, and Daedalus, who made Icarus' wings. Again, there's certainly more out there, these are just the ones I can think of.

mona lizard

  • Apprentice
  • ***
  • Join Date: Nov 2017
  • Posts: 35
  • Country: fr
  • Total likes: 15
    • View Profile
  • Religion: pagan, worships coincidence
  • Preferred Pronouns: she or he
Re: Pagan guy talk
« Reply #8 on: December 28, 2017, 04:15:38 am »
I have seen the "child-warrior-sage" cycle as a male counterpart to the maiden-mother-crone. Both have their issues, particularly with the middle phase- not every man wants to be a warrior, and not every woman wants to be a mother- even metaphorically) and with the rather strict gendering of those roles.

It's true that when a lot of female rites of passage involve the first period, or motherhood, male rites of passage around the world often involve hunting or weapons. Don't know if it's meaningful but maybe you'll find some inspiration and traditions you didn't know of that could reflect on your own path and your own conception of gender roles.
- 20 year old artist from France, childlike wonder! -

ehbowen

  • Grand Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Location: Houston, Texas
  • *
  • Posts: 1396
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 286
  • A Ways Around the Bend...
    • View Profile
    • Streamliner Schedules
  • Religion: Southern Baptist
Re: Pagan guy talk
« Reply #9 on: December 28, 2017, 08:19:23 am »
The prodigious child archetype is something I see a lot, not just in Pagan religion but also in Christianity. Jesus Christ was rather devout as a child, as would be expected from the son of God (ehbown- correct me if I'm wrong).

No, you are correct; at the end of his chapter 2 Luke records a story of how Jesus went to the Jewish temple during a Passover feast and astounded the teachers of the Law with his insight and understanding when he was twelve years old. There is some speculation among Biblical literalists, with which I concur, that Mary was still alive and living in Palestine during the period of Paul's arrest and two-year incarceration in Caesarea during the AD 58-60 time frame and that Luke, who was accompanying him but who was not under arrest and free to travel, met with her and other eyewitnesses during this period and so accumulated the material which was included in his Gospel.

Personally I see a second meaning in this little snippet; I have recently been thinking about the details of how incarnation "works". I have the working notion that a deity or angel who incarnates may have "flashes" of his/her previous existence when newborn as a human, but that at a point (probably prior to adolescence) his divine nature fully merges with his human nature and he is able to recall the details of both clearly. I think Luke's little aside here gives insight to that process in Jesus's life. So, he really was fully human and at the same time fully divine.
--------Eric H. Bowen
Where's the KABOOM? There was supposed to have been an Earth-shattering KABOOM!
Computers are like air conditioning. They become useless when you open Windows—Linus Torvalds.

Jainarayan

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Oct 2014
  • Posts: 606
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 168
    • View Profile
Re: Pagan guy talk
« Reply #10 on: December 28, 2017, 10:31:30 am »
Are there more archetypes (besides the ones you've already mentioned) from the various pagan traditions that address this? Are there paths that have effective men's mysteries, as robust as those for women, that speak directly or indirectly to our testosterone needs?

And are there archetypes that address our aging--as our signature testosterone fades--that can guide us through that life transition, the way maid-mother-crone speaks to women?

I can only think of a few other "warrior" gods: Perun, Indra, Herakles, Kartikeya (aka Murugan, Skanda). I put warrior in quotes not because they are gods of war but because they do battle when it's called for or they command divine armies. Two I can think of who "retired" from military service to live as ascetics and give guidance as teachers or elders are Parashurama (an avatar of Vishnu) and Hanuman. Parashurama is biding his time waiting for the appearance of Kalki, Vishnu's final avatar of this world, whom he will train in battle arts. Hanuman will live in this world, for anyone to call upon him, as long as the name Rama is spoken. So, I guess it's subtle and has to be searched for but the same transition from warrior to elder is there for men also.

Kylara

  • Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Feb 2012
  • Posts: 1164
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 173
    • View Profile
    • https://www.patreon.com/kyndryana
  • Religion: Norse Fusion Witchcraft
  • Preferred Pronouns: she/her/hers
Re: Pagan guy talk
« Reply #11 on: December 28, 2017, 10:55:42 am »
P.S. I apologize if all of this seems painfully obvious to some--perhaps there are traditions out there that deal with all this extensively--but as a guy who's mostly solitary in his path, I don't have much knowledge of what goes on inside covens that addresses male needs.

As I am not male, I can't speak from personal experience, but one of my close friends talks fondly about a men's circle he was part of in college that explored the male mysteries. 

I think they exist (men-centric groups or sub-groups and activities), but are typically less obvious than the women's groups.  And sadly, some women seem to get highly offended when men want groups for themselves (even though those same women may vehemently defend their own women-only groups).  So I think that many men feel like they don't have a place to do men-stuff.

I am also reminded of a quote from the Red Hat Society (a women's group that has meetings).  When asked what about men who want to join or about what their husbands do when they do group stuff, one was quoted saying, "They can make their own groups."  Which sounds a little flippant, but I think the heart of the message is good.  I think the more men who want to explore men's mysteries, and start forming up groups to do so, the more men's mysteries will come to light for everyone.

I do feel that the Pagan community at large is highly female-centric and all talk of equality aside, it is not an equal representation.  I am part of a chant group that is a mix of men and women (actually pretty well split down the middle, equal in gender representation), and we have a ton of Goddess chants or women's chants...but not so many men's chants.  It always makes me sad, because I am a God oriented person (and a bit more masculine oriented in general...women's groups still feel odd to me), so I have a lot of mixed feelings about the secondary nature of God/men in a lot of Pagan sources
Check out my Patreon for more writing and other goodies!

TheGreenWizard

  • Master Member
  • ******
  • Join Date: Jul 2017
  • Location: New York, NY
  • Posts: 307
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 120
    • View Profile
  • Religion: Hellenic Pagan
  • Preferred Pronouns: he/him/his
Re: Pagan guy talk
« Reply #12 on: December 28, 2017, 04:50:35 pm »
That makes a lot of sense. Esp. for nature-based pagans like myself, whose religion is grounded in the cycles of the world and in our own bodies, management of testosterone-tinged behavior would stand out as the signature male concern, as differentiating for us as women's issues of menstruation and motherhood (if at all) and menopause are for them.

Are there more archetypes (besides the ones you've already mentioned) from the various pagan traditions that address this? Are there paths that have effective men's mysteries, as robust as those for women, that speak directly or indirectly to our testosterone needs?

And are there archetypes that address our aging--as our signature testosterone fades--that can guide us through that life transition, the way maid-mother-crone speaks to women?
The book, Sacred Paths for Modern Men, is a great read that addresses your very question Altair.

The author states there are 12 archetypes for men, each of which we may or may not go through one at a time or have multiple at a time. The twelve - if I  remember correctly - are:

Divine Child
Lover
Warrior
Trickster
Green Man
Guide/Teacher
Craftsman
Magician
Destroyer
King
Healer
Sacrificed One

While the text is easy to read, these are not inclusive of all the male-oriented mysteries available to us IMHO.

I'm on the subway right now, but did find this link to be of interest to this thread: https://meadmuse.wordpress.com/2009/07/07/male-mysteries-pagan-male-archetypes/

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

“You have brains in your head. You have feet in your shoes. You can steer yourself any direction you choose. You're on your own. And you know what you know. And YOU are the one who'll decide where to go...”
― Dr. Seuss, Oh, the Places You'll Go

Darkhawk

  • Senior Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 5005
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 902
    • View Profile
    • Suns in her Branches
  • Religion: An American Werewolf in the Akhet; Kemetic; Feri; Imaginary Baltic Heathen; Discordian; CoX; Etc.
  • Preferred Pronouns: any of he, she, they
Re: Pagan guy talk
« Reply #13 on: December 28, 2017, 04:51:24 pm »
Men, I think, have less to go on in today's paganism. (Maybe because much of neopaganism evolved in response to centuries of patriarchal religion.) What male archetypes have you found meaningful in paganism? Do you think there's anything especially male that gets addressed or needs addressing in a pagan spiritual context?

I was going to wander on out again because I didn't have anything useful to say, but I suddenly had a thought.

I think the dearth of male iconic images may actually be because "maleness" is taken as a sort of cultural default, the unmarked case, and thus becomes this sort of diffuse, unspecific meta-thing.

The MMC archetypes are basically rooted in a heavily reductionist model of womanhood as being essentially divided into categories based on reproductive utility, after all.  And that doesn't really have any parallels for the male, because maleness is defined by, well, everything else, from that paradigm - except for the archetypal formulations of maleness that are Forbidden.  (Those can have iconic status but are not treated as aspirational.)

So when one tries to invert that and come up with an MMC equivalent, one winds up with a weird thing because male reproductive stuff isn't actually a filter that "maleness" is treated through, and the concept of the life-stages as all-encompassing and all-consuming the same way gets a whole lot more "... buh?"  And trying to find archetypes that have a scope that makes more sense, but since "maleness" is that unmarked cultural default, it's like trying to punch clouds.

(Please excuse the vagueness here, I've done a whole lot more grappling with "whiteness" as being like punching clouds in this fashion than I have gender.)

I think that a gender-oriented particularization needs to include conceptualising models of maleness as concrete ideas (and idealizations) but also to liberate models of femaleness from uterus status.  Somewhere in the middle would be good - where "mother" and "father" archetypes can exist but not attempt to exclude other manners of beingness - for both those chunks of the gendery-wendery stuff.
as the water grinds the stone
we rise and fall
as our ashes turn to dust
we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

MadZealot

  • Adept Member
  • ********
  • Join Date: Nov 2011
  • Location: So Cal
  • Posts: 2483
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 191
  • Eye yam tu papi.
    • View Profile
  • Religion: Bitter Clinger. Sith Lord.
Re: Pagan guy talk
« Reply #14 on: December 28, 2017, 08:48:35 pm »
What male archetypes have you found meaningful in paganism?

I'm only really familiar with the archetypal horned god from Wicca. Although, I suppose some of the Majors in Tarot count; imo, they're 22 slices of human personality.
Oh, is it time again to say "Fuck Trump gently in the ear with a swarm of pissed-off hornets?"?

Okay. Fuck Trump gently in the ear with a swarm of pissed-off hornets.

Tags:
 

Related Topics

  Subject / Started by Replies Last post
19 Replies
3371 Views
Last post March 25, 2012, 08:24:32 am
by Aisling
The new guy

Started by Raug Vinchenzo Moretti Introductions

4 Replies
599 Views
Last post December 09, 2012, 06:43:32 am
by Waldhexe
3 Replies
1256 Views
Last post January 24, 2013, 01:16:43 pm
by Laveth
Hi from the New Guy

Started by CeileDe Introductions

4 Replies
720 Views
Last post July 09, 2015, 07:53:25 am
by RandallS
15 Replies
3238 Views
Last post August 17, 2015, 08:58:04 pm
by 70sWoodstock

* Who's Online

  • Dot Guests: 35
  • Dot Hidden: 0
  • Dot Users: 0

There aren't any users online.

* Please Donate!

The Cauldron's server is expensive and requires monthly payments. Please become a Bronze, Silver or Gold Donor if you can. Donations are needed every month. Without member support, we can't afford the server.

* Shop & Support TC

The links below are affiliate links. When you click on one of these links you will go to the listed shopping site with The Cauldron's affiliate code. Any purchases you make during your visit will earn TC a tiny percentage of your purchase price at no extra cost to you.

* In Memoriam

Chavi (2006)
Elspeth (2010)
Marilyn (2013)

* Cauldron Staff

Host:
Sunflower

Message Board Staff
Board Coordinator:
Darkhawk

Assistant Board Coordinator:
Aster Breo

Senior Staff:
Aisling, Jenett, Sefiru

Staff:
Allaya, Chatelaine, EclecticWheel, HarpingHawke, Kylara, PerditaPickle, rocquelaire

Discord Chat Staff
Chat Coordinator:
Morag

Cauldron Council:
Bob, Catja, Emma-Eldritch, Fausta, Jubes, Kelly, LyricFox, Phouka, Sperran, Star, Steve, Tana

Site Administrator:
Randall

SimplePortal 2.3.6 © 2008-2014, SimplePortal