collapse

* "Unable to verify referring url. Please go back and try again" Problem Logging In?

If you get an "Unable to verify referring url. Please go back and try again" error when you try to log in, you need to be sure you are accessing the board with a url that starts with "https://ecauldron.com".  If it starts with https://www.ecauldron.com" (or "http://www.ecauldron.com") you will get this error because "www.ecauldron.com" is not technically the same website as "ecauldron.com". Moving to the more secure "https" means it is more picky about such things.

Author Topic: Cultural Heritage: Yay or Nay?  (Read 19991 times)

stephyjh

  • Grand Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 1597
  • Total likes: 2
    • View Profile
Cultural Heritage: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #150 on: July 21, 2012, 02:38:03 pm »
Quote from: Nyktipolos;65334
Tagging onto Stephy's post as well, the problem with using a "dictionary definition" is that most of the time those dictionaries are created by white people, who more often than not have a variety of other privileges, which results in them refusing to acknowledge certain terms (like cisgender and transmisogyny, f'ex) because they are privileged enough to not realize that NOT acknowledging them and putting them in hurts communities.

So like Stephy said, racial prejudice is a much more accurate word to use.

Also, the dictionary definition has not substantially changed since the beginning of the 20th century, when ideas about race were so different that interracial marriage was by and large illegal, and many minority groups weren't even allowed to vote. Thinking on the subject has changed immensely in the past century.
A heretic blast has been blown in the west,
That what is no sense must be nonsense.

-Robert Burns

iulla

  • Journeyman
  • *****
  • Join Date: Dec 2011
  • Posts: 157
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Cultural Heritage: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #151 on: July 21, 2012, 02:54:04 pm »
Quote from: triple_entendre;65309
On the other hand, while people should be able to take whatever path they will, it's just much easier when that path is paved, marked with clearly painted signs, or at least visible. A lot of paths have been grown over, a few even blocked off, so-- I get the significance of culture and heritage, in spirituality, now, kind of.

Oh, I definitely agree with you there!  I'm not saying that people shouldn't use their heritage as a springboard for choosing a path: I know of a handful of people who do, and it can be very rewarding.  You are connecting with the gods and practices of your ancestors, and possibly your ancestors themselves - what could be better than feeling that connection?


Some paths are easier to see than others, that's very true.  Following a path that you are at least somewhat familiar with makes the transition all the more easier, but learning about a new path can give you a whole new perspective.
 
Quote from: Nyktipolos;65334
Tagging onto Stephy's post as well, the problem with using a "dictionary definition" is that most of the time those dictionaries are created by white people, who more often than not have a variety of other privileges, which results in them refusing to acknowledge certain terms (like cisgender and transmisogyny, f'ex) because they are privileged enough to not realize that NOT acknowledging them and putting them in hurts communities.

So like Stephy said, racial prejudice is a much more accurate word to use.

I don't know...the sociological definition is just...  

Call it what you will, if you are discriminating on someone based on skin color alone, if you are assigning characteristics that have nothing to do with skin color onto a person, and if you are of the belief that a group with a certain skin color is inferior (or superior) to yours, then, well, that's just ridiculous and wrong.  Whether you are in the minority or not shouldn't matter.  And I know that prejudice and power very often go hand in hand.  It all just seems very...pedantic.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2012, 03:01:13 pm by iulla »
dum spiro, spero

Lucus Antiquus:  my religious blog

LiminalAuggie

  • Journeyman
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 127
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Cultural Heritage: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #152 on: July 21, 2012, 03:41:44 pm »
Quote from: iulla;65340
Call it what you will, if you are discriminating on someone based on skin color alone, if you are assigning characteristics that have nothing to do with skin color onto a person, and if you are of the belief that a group with a certain skin color is inferior (or superior) to yours, then, well, that's just ridiculous and wrong.  Whether you are in the minority or not shouldn't matter.  And I know that prejudice and power very often go hand in hand.  It all just seems very...pedantic.


Here's my two cents:
I can see how the specificity of this definition of racism can seem pedantic. I can totally see how the contrast of "well this is the sociology geek definition" and "this is the common parlance of the word" makes the former look, well, a bit stuffy and useless for everyday conversation. And when talking about other things I am generally all about looking at language as a fluid evolving thing and how it is fundamentally democratic and should not be locked up an ivory tower, and instead reflect the usage of the people, but.
But. Talking about racism.

My perspective is, I guess, a little bit different. I'm not a sociology geek. I don't have a PhD in this stuff. Despite that, I absolutely go with the sociological standard meaning of "racism" because that is the definition that reflects my everyday life experience. The racism I experience is not about individual people bearing enmity toward me (or my enmity towards other people) because of skin tone. Or, I should say, it's not just about that. The racism I experience includes a whole big system-wide series of hurts, of daily reminders that I am Other, of a whole collection of institutionalized bias that, because of my skin tone and my facial features and the texture of my hair, make it pervasively clear that the playing field is not level and that I do not have equal footing in the world.

So when I talk about racism I talk about a wider scope than individual skin-based prejudice, because the problem is more comprehensive than individual acts of hatred. And trying to fix that problem has to go deeper than just stopping people from hating each other for superficial reasons, because there are fundamental flaws in the structure of society. It's not about intellectualism and pedantry, it's about the difficulties vast swaths of everyday people face just trying to get by in the world.

I'm sorry, that turned into way more than two cents, that was like a dollar. :o

Faemon

  • Grand Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2012
  • Posts: 1229
  • Total likes: 9
    • View Profile
Re: Cultural Heritage: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #153 on: July 21, 2012, 03:52:53 pm »
Quote from: iulla;65340
Quote from: Nyktipolos;65334
Tagging onto Stephy's post as well, the problem with using a "dictionary definition" is that most of the time those dictionaries are created by white people, who more often than not have a variety of other privileges, which results in them refusing to acknowledge certain terms (like cisgender and transmisogyny, f'ex) because they are privileged enough to not realize that NOT acknowledging them and putting them in hurts communities.

So like Stephy said, racial prejudice is a much more accurate word to use.
I don't know...the sociological definition is just...  

Call it what you will, if you are discriminating on someone based on skin color alone, if you are assigning characteristics that have nothing to do with skin color onto a person, and if you are of the belief that a group with a certain skin color is inferior (or superior) to yours, then, well, that's just ridiculous and wrong.  Whether you are in the minority or not shouldn't matter.  And I know that prejudice and power very often go hand in hand.  It all just seems very...pedantic.

Not only does it distract from the principle of the conflict, (I think, less so than functioning as a crucial reminder about the slant of the landscape,) but I've witnessed the social justice definition fall apart pretty much whenever intersectionality is involved, or the approach of any power-shift tipping point, in a discussion.

Quote from: LiminalAuggie
The racism I experience includes a whole big system-wide series of hurts, of daily reminders that I am Other, of a whole collection of institutionalized bias that, because of my skin tone and my facial features and the texture of my hair, make it pervasively clear that the playing field is not level and that I do not have equal footing in the world.

So when I talk about racism I talk about a wider scope than individual skin-based prejudice, because the problem is more comprehensive than individual acts of hatred.
This still holds true, I certainly would not ignore this. I'd only opine that the redefinition of one word is far too simple to express and assert this experience and context.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2012, 03:59:45 pm by Faemon »
The Codex of Poesy: wishcraft, faelatry, alchemy, and other slight misspellings.
the Otherfaith: Chromatic Genderbending Faery Monarchs of Technology. DeviantArt

Jabberwocky

  • Master Member
  • ******
  • Join Date: Feb 2012
  • Posts: 451
  • Total likes: 23
    • View Profile
Re: Cultural Heritage: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #154 on: July 22, 2012, 08:10:54 am »
Quote from: Nyktipolos;65334
Tagging onto Stephy's post as well, the problem with using a "dictionary definition" is that most of the time those dictionaries are created by white people, who more often than not have a variety of other privileges, which results in them refusing to acknowledge certain terms (like cisgender and transmisogyny, f'ex) because they are privileged enough to not realize that NOT acknowledging them and putting them in hurts communities.

On the flipside, much of the discussion that takes place round these issues is very much in a North American liberal identity politics framework.  While it's often assumed to be universal, that isn't the case.

For a minor example of that, I got into an argument online for talking about "black people" as opposed to "people of colour".  Thing is, "poc" is not a term that you should be using if you're in the UK- it will be met with incomprehension at best and hostility at worst.  (I don't say this in a "poor me" kind of way.  It's an irritant, not a major issue).

There are certain unrecognised issues of cultural dominance that come into play here.  The UK is one thing- we're still pretty culturally prevalent so it's not that important.  But I strongly suspect when you get outside of the Anglosphere, let alone outside of Europe, this is going to be even more of an issue.
Your heart is a muscle as big as your fist.

Faemon

  • Grand Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2012
  • Posts: 1229
  • Total likes: 9
    • View Profile
Re: Cultural Heritage: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #155 on: July 22, 2012, 08:48:09 am »
Quote from: Jabberwocky;65416
On the flipside, much of the discussion that takes place round these issues is very much in a North American liberal identity politics framework.  While it's often assumed to be universal, that isn't the case.

For a minor example of that, I got into an argument online for talking about "black people" as opposed to "people of colour".  Thing is, "poc" is not a term that you should be using if you're in the UK- it will be met with incomprehension at best and hostility at worst.  (I don't say this in a "poor me" kind of way.  It's an irritant, not a major issue).

There are certain unrecognised issues of cultural dominance that come into play here.  The UK is one thing- we're still pretty culturally prevalent so it's not that important.  But I strongly suspect when you get outside of the Anglosphere, let alone outside of Europe, this is going to be even more of an issue.

 
I watched a feature where Jane Elliott, an American schoolteacher who taught her kindergarteners why Martin Luther King was murdered, (they asked,) by dividing them by eye color and declaring that one was better than the other. The kids invented their own nasty ways of embracing their roles. The next week, she switched them around. The third week, they all agreed that judging whole groups of people by color (of skin, or eye) is bad.

The feature itself was more about how she taught adults this concept. It's the same way, but much harsher than (I hope) she treated her kindergarten students. It went pretty much like every flamewar on Tumblr when .

But
The Codex of Poesy: wishcraft, faelatry, alchemy, and other slight misspellings.
the Otherfaith: Chromatic Genderbending Faery Monarchs of Technology. DeviantArt

Darkhawk

  • Senior Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 4882
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 763
    • View Profile
    • Suns in her Branches
  • Religion: An American Werewolf in the Akhet; Kemetic; Feri; Imaginary Baltic Heathen; Discordian; CoX; Etc.
  • Preferred Pronouns: any of he, she, they
Re: Cultural Heritage: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #156 on: July 22, 2012, 12:58:25 pm »
Quote from: Jabberwocky;65416
On the flipside, much of the discussion that takes place round these issues is very much in a North American liberal identity politics framework.  While it's often assumed to be universal, that isn't the case.

 
I have seen that brought up in a context of the definition of "racism" before, as that format is very specifically American.
as the water grinds the stone
we rise and fall
as our ashes turn to dust
we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

Juniperberry

  • Grand Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Banned!
  • Posts: 1891
  • Total likes: 3
    • View Profile
Re: Cultural Heritage: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #157 on: July 22, 2012, 01:41:27 pm »
Quote from: Tobias;65291

 My original post was aimed at those who have chosen a pagan religion over Christianity, and feel obligated to completely root out all traces of their former religion due to peer pressure or other illogical reasoning.  I do not want anyone to have to suffer cultural loss, and *gasp*, think that should apply to former/current/half Christians as well!


I kind of get what you're saying here but it sort of makes me chuckle. Christianity is like a sponge that absorbs culture. Hispanic Catholicism differs from Irish Catholicism, Fire and Brimstone Baptists differ from the ambivalent  Christian Wasps. So which Christian culture are you afraid of losing?

I actually think that those interested in cultural heritage find through research and deconstruction that there are notso much boxes and categories of religion in history but a thread of transition and acculturation that connects us from point a to point b. In fact, it all sort of comes around full circle.
The pace of progress in artificial intelligence (I’m not referring to narrow AI) is incredibly fast. [...] The risk of something seriously dangerous happening is in the five year timeframe. 10 years at most.--Elon Musk

I am in the camp that is concerned about super intelligence," [Bill] Gates wrote. "First the machines will do a lot of jobs for us and not be super intelligent. That should be positive if we manage it well. A few decades after that though the intelligence is strong enough to be a concern. I agree with Elon Musk and some others on this and don\'t understand why some people are not concerned."

Nyktipolos

  • Grand Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • *
  • Posts: 1498
  • Total likes: 2
    • View Profile
Re: Cultural Heritage: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #158 on: July 22, 2012, 05:53:53 pm »
Quote from: Jabberwocky;65416
On the flipside, much of the discussion that takes place round these issues is very much in a North American liberal identity politics framework.  While it's often assumed to be universal, that isn't the case.


I've talked with a number of people about this definition of racism as well as the term PoC who live outside the US and do not always identify as having a liberal-slanted political view.

That being said, it is up to the individual on how they want to be identified, and that should be respected. That being said, 'PoC' is a political term, not necessarily a physical descriptor (although it is, too). It's why I know of Saami (both who live in Sweden and the UK) who identify as a PoC, even though their skin is white.

But I do recognize that much of the discussions on racism and privilege happen in North America. I can't speak for non-NA people on how they choose to identify, etc.
"Though my soul may set in darkness, it will rise in perfect light;
I have loved the stars too fondly to be fearful of the night." - Sarah Williams
On the Rivers

Zythan

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2012
  • Posts: 9
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Cultural Heritage: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #159 on: July 26, 2012, 10:58:19 am »
Quote from: SatSekhem;46324
Did you base your pagan path off of the cultures in your family tree or not?

 
Yes and no. I'm about half German, quarter Irish and a quarter French (I usually tend to forget about the French side in lieu of the Irish). I started out looking into Druidry because I felt a "click" there, and it also made sense with my Irish ethnicity. However, a couple weeks in I felt that I really needed a deity to connect with and never felt that with anything Celtic. I basically went out and did a meditation, as if to say "Hey deities, here I am." I had an experience which then led me to Odin, and ever since I've felt an extremely strong connection to Him and the Norse pantheon. I suppose that could be because of the German side? There's Scandinavian somewhere along the line (I know from my appearance, mainly eyes, and family tree).

Anyways, long story short, cultural heritage had a bit of an impact on what I started with, but as I went along it became less chosen by me.

FollowerofOdin

  • Master Member
  • ******
  • Join Date: Dec 2012
  • Posts: 371
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Cultural Heritage: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #160 on: January 10, 2013, 03:45:39 pm »
Quote from: SatSekhem;46324
I'm just, kind of, taking a poll about the pagans on the site who utilized their cultural heritage to find a path versus those who haven't.

So.

Did you base your pagan path off of the cultures in your family tree or not?

 
Yes, I do. I'm drawn to my cultural heritage and worship the gods of my ancestors. Still working on the books, though.

Materialist

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Oct 2012
  • Posts: 605
  • Total likes: 1
    • View Profile
Re: Cultural Heritage: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #161 on: January 23, 2013, 12:40:47 pm »
Quote from: SatSekhem;46324
I'm just, kind of, taking a poll about the pagans on the site who utilized their cultural heritage to find a path versus those who haven't.

So.

Did you base your pagan path off of the cultures in your family tree or not?


Yes, the ritual structure I use is derived from my ancestral religions of British/Scandinavian/Indo-Iranian. Mythologically, theologically, general beliefs-wise, I follow the ideas of Joseph Campbell's interpretations of religion and the beliefs of the World Pantheist Movement out of old mother Britain.

Materialist

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Oct 2012
  • Posts: 605
  • Total likes: 1
    • View Profile
Re: Cultural Heritage: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #162 on: January 23, 2013, 01:01:26 pm »
Quote from: LiminalAuggie;46330
Oh this opens up a whole can of worms for me!
I want to include aspects of my ancestral heritage in my practice because for the longest time in my Pagan wanderings I've been focusing on "generic" spirituality, as it were, and I want to make my path more personally meaningful and get a sense of focus.

However, being biracial I quickly hit this wall of "well I don't know where in Africa my dad's ancestors were from" and "I'm an American, isn't it cultural appropriation to claim X pantheon if I didn't grow up around it?" and "okay I have European heritage but if I limit myself to European cultures is that some form of internal colonial oppression?"

Long story short: I get stuck in really anxious ethical debates with myself when I try to apply cultural heritage to my spiritual path.
I know for sure I've got English and French heritage so that's "safe" for research, but it's slow going at this point.


I hear you. I'm also of mixed ancestry, and trying to find the perfect fusion of all the elements is an ongoing process. For African ancestry genetic tests are available that can help narrow down where your family came from. Oprah Winfrey had it done, I think Wanda Sykes did, bunch of other celebrities have had it done for PBS shows.

When I'm studying pre-Christian religions, if it sends a thrill through me, it turns out to be an ancestral one. I found Mazdayasna awesome, and afterwards genetic testing on my maternal grandfather's side showed that part of the tree most likely originated around Armenia. What a coincidence. Certain aspects of Hinduism have always attracted me-and guess what? Testing myself showed I'm part Indian. Also part British and Scandinavian, religions that have attracted me for a while.

Gee, maybe it's a sign?

So I think you shouldn't limit yourself. Read stuff about African religions, see if any of it calls to you-I'll have to do this as well, also got me some African heritage.

Bosque

  • Jr. Newbie
  • *
  • Join Date: Aug 2013
  • Posts: 1
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Cultural Heritage: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #163 on: August 18, 2013, 07:07:20 am »
Quote from: SatSekhem;46324
I'm just, kind of, taking a poll about the pagans on the site who utilized their cultural heritage to find a path versus those who haven't.

So.

Did you base your pagan path off of the cultures in your family tree or not?


Simple answer: No.

Expanded answer: For a long time i was stuck trying to determine which "type" to follow and that proved quite problematic. My country is literally the western end of Europe and there have been so many peoples movements in this land, some of them very relevant while others were just passing through, that to pick one was nearly impossible for me, especially since i had an interest in all.

Now I think that the most important thing to do is to honour the spirits of the land you are in. This is something that i view outside the concept of "personal gods". Some of the spirits around are indeed gods in their own right, others aren't, but the inspiration and awe that initially drove me to paganism has no land nor cultural bounds and I have the freedom to navigate that richness, so long as I respect the gods own context, protocols and taboos.

That said, to my knowledge, the cultures we derive our gods from had a very different notion of what ancestry meant and where you came from didnt necessarily have an impact on who you worshipped, so long as you knew that that god was there. The gods travelled with the people that honoured them and often times, especially when the culture in question had a wanderlust to them or conditions arose that had them on the move, you had several deities that had a "pan" status and were worshipped in lands quite different from the one that originated them. Other times, soldiers and merchants brought new deities with them. Sometimes you had syncretic deities emerging from the contact of two cultures (think about the romano-gallic deities, some the greek deities - Aphrodite comes to  mind) and so on.

Aiwelin

  • Master Member
  • ******
  • Join Date: Feb 2012
  • Posts: 382
  • Total likes: 2
    • View Profile
Re: Cultural Heritage: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #164 on: August 19, 2013, 06:48:08 pm »
Quote from: SatSekhem;46324
I'm just, kind of, taking a poll about the pagans on the site who utilized their cultural heritage to find a path versus those who haven't.

So.

Did you base your pagan path off of the cultures in your family tree or not?

 
I wanted to reply to this awhile ago, but completely forgot!  So here's my late note :)

I base my path, loosely, on my cultural heritage - or at least the half of it that I know anything about.  I spent some time a long time ago on one of those ancestry websites and traced my ancestors back to the early (for some) or late (for others) 1800s when they first came to the US from a mix of Germany, Poland, Ireland, and England.  When I found ADF and went searching for a hearth culture, I chose a dual path of Anglo-Saxon and Celtic pantheons to honor my ancestors (since the Saxons were a Germanic culture, I think it fits in well enough).

My primary reason for this is connecting with my Ancestors, which is a big part of my practice.  But secondarily, I also wanted to avoid the issues of cultural appropriation and 'shiny' syndrome by picking something in my history and sticking with it - I am interested in Egyptian mythology, but I don't want to ruffle any feathers, and I'm pretty content with my path where it is at the moment.  Not that I think anyone who strays from their European heritage is appropriating anything, obviously it depends on the individual, but I just didn't want to have to deal with the ethical quandaries involved.

On the other hand, I am very interested in researching local Native American tribal religions and their relation to the spirits of place.  I haven't had time to do that yet, and I'm not sure it's anything I'd incorporate into my practice, but I feel the spirits pulling me towards that research in a way that indicates they might prefer to be honored in a way they are more familiar with.  So I'm not sure how I'm going to handle that if it does become something I'm very interested in :(
Devotee of Nerthus
Worshipper of Germanic Deities
Now blogging on Patheos Pagan!  Check out Heathen at Heart

In the Nebraska-Iowa area?  Come check out Prairie Shadow Protogrove, ADF!
Ár nDraíocht Féin
The Troth

Tags:
 

Related Topics

  Subject / Started by Replies Last post
116 Replies
19600 Views
Last post October 25, 2016, 05:18:52 pm
by Yei
37 Replies
8843 Views
Last post February 05, 2012, 03:38:17 pm
by Micheál
110 Replies
12921 Views
Last post July 18, 2015, 07:33:39 pm
by RecycledBenedict
71 Replies
8064 Views
Last post July 23, 2015, 10:19:23 pm
by Louisvillian
7 Replies
949 Views
Last post April 30, 2015, 09:43:15 am
by rocquelaire

* Who's Online

  • Dot Guests: 47
  • Dot Hidden: 0
  • Dot Users: 0

There aren't any users online.

* Please Donate!

The Cauldron's server is expensive and requires monthly payments. Please become a Bronze, Silver or Gold Donor if you can. Donations are needed every month. Without member support, we can't afford the server.

* Shop & Support TC

The links below are affiliate links. When you click on one of these links you will go to the listed shopping site with The Cauldron's affiliate code. Any purchases you make during your visit will earn TC a tiny percentage of your purchase price at no extra cost to you.

* In Memoriam

Chavi (2006)
Elspeth (2010)
Marilyn (2013)

* Cauldron Staff

Host:
Sunflower

Message Board Staff
Board Coordinator:
Darkhawk

Assistant Board Coordinator:
Aster Breo

Senior Staff:
Aisling, Jenett, Sefiru

Staff:
Allaya, Chatelaine, EclecticWheel, HarpingHawke, Kylara, PerditaPickle, rocquelaire

Discord Chat Staff
Chat Coordinator:
Morag

Cauldron Council:
Bob, Catja, Emma-Eldritch, Fausta, Jubes, Kelly, LyricFox, Phouka, Sperran, Star, Steve, Tana

Site Administrator:
Randall