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Author Topic: Conservative Women vs. the Dark Arts  (Read 1066 times)

Darkhawk

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Re: Conservative Women vs. the Dark Arts
« Reply #15 on: December 14, 2018, 04:05:54 pm »
Is this complicated by the fact that there might be some actual Satanists out there? Are any kinds of Satanists considered pagan, or are they a separate thing? I was sort of driving at this question on another thread, but maybe I was not being clear. I believe that most (all? many?) pagans do not admit any kind of idea of Satan. It is a Christian idea and they do not believe in it. Some Christians just project their own "idea" of the devil onto anyone with different views from theirs.

The forms of Satanism that descend from LaVey's stuff are typically not considered pagan, though I imagine some Temple of Set people might be (ToS being, if I remember my research properly, a theistic Satanism offshoot, but not typically pagan-identified); Luciferean Satanism is one of the root sources of modern paganism through several angles.

http://sunsinherbranches.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/Pagan-Family-Tree-v.1.png is one of the simplified bits of my relevant research - note the Satanism down the left side offshooting from Christianity is rather distinct from the roughly centreline Satanism coming from literature.  http://sunsinherbranches.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/RW-Soupmap-v.2.1.png has Madeline Montalban on it but no LaVey.

(http://sunsinherbranches.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/Pagan-Clade-Simplified-Graphical-Soup-v.5.png is  what's being simplified, so, y'know.  The history of modern paganism is complicated.)
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EnderDragonFire

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Re: Conservative Women vs. the Dark Arts
« Reply #16 on: December 14, 2018, 06:03:15 pm »
(http://sunsinherbranches.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/Pagan-Clade-Simplified-Graphical-Soup-v.5.png is  what's being simplified, so, y'know.  The history of modern paganism is complicated.)

I was gonna complain that the first table left a lot of stuff out, but then I looked at the second table. Glad to see that it acknowledges the influence of things like Sufism, which are not normally recognized, on the long term religious though of the western world that led to Paganism (and other modern religious movements).
"The worshippers of the gods go to them; to the manes go the ancestor-worshippers; to the Deities who preside over the elements go their worshippers; My devotees come to Me." ... "Whichever devotee desires to adore whatever such Deity with faith, in all such votaries I make that particular faith unshakable. Endowed with that faith, a votary performs the worship of that particular deity and obtains the fruits thereof, these being granted by Me alone." - Sri Krishna

EclecticWheel

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Re: Conservative Women vs. the Dark Arts
« Reply #17 on: December 14, 2018, 07:50:06 pm »
Is this complicated by the fact that there might be some actual Satanists out there? Are any kinds of Satanists considered pagan, or are they a separate thing? I was sort of driving at this question on another thread, but maybe I was not being clear. I believe that most (all? many?) pagans do not admit any kind of idea of Satan. It is a Christian idea and they do not believe in it. Some Christians just project their own "idea" of the devil onto anyone with different views from theirs.

Some Satanists do identify as neo-pagan, though not all.  This group of Satanists is arguably neo-pagan:

http://theisticsatanism.com/CoAz/

I really like some of the articles on that site.
My personal moral code:

Love wisely, and do what thou wilt.

Castus

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Re: Conservative Women vs. the Dark Arts
« Reply #18 on: December 14, 2018, 09:12:39 pm »
I'm just gonna leave this little gem here:

https://www.conservativewoman.co.uk/you-neednt-believe-in-magic-to-worry-about-witchcraft/

I have to say my favourite line, possibly from any article ever, is the following:

'There’s Harry Potter of course, and also the sinister Chilling Adventures of Sabrina, complete with devil worship, cannibalism, human sacrifice and, inevitably, feminism.'

"Conservative Women vs. the Dark Arts" is hands-down my favourite thread title.
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Donal2018

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Re: Conservative Women vs. the Dark Arts
« Reply #19 on: December 14, 2018, 10:14:19 pm »
The forms of Satanism that descend from LaVey's stuff are typically not considered pagan, though I imagine some Temple of Set people might be (ToS being, if I remember my research properly, a theistic Satanism offshoot, but not typically pagan-identified); Luciferean Satanism is one of the root sources of modern paganism through several angles.

http://sunsinherbranches.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/Pagan-Family-Tree-v.1.png is one of the simplified bits of my relevant research - note the Satanism down the left side offshooting from Christianity is rather distinct from the roughly centreline Satanism coming from literature.  http://sunsinherbranches.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/RW-Soupmap-v.2.1.png has Madeline Montalban on it but no LaVey.

(http://sunsinherbranches.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/Pagan-Clade-Simplified-Graphical-Soup-v.5.png is  what's being simplified, so, y'know.  The history of modern paganism is complicated.)

That Pagan Family Tree was quite something. Thanks for posting it. The diversity of beliefs can be a bit overwhelming.

Donal2018

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Re: Conservative Women vs. the Dark Arts
« Reply #20 on: December 14, 2018, 10:38:31 pm »
Some Satanists do identify as neo-pagan, though not all.  This group of Satanists is arguably neo-pagan:

http://theisticsatanism.com/CoAz/

I really like some of the articles on that site.

Thanks for posting that link to a Satanist group's web site. I always found some of the ideas behind some brands of Satanism to be questionable. If you are really opposed to the tyranny of Abrahamic Religion, is it really efficacious to identify with what is arguably the symbol and personification of evil to so many Christians?

It seems like stirring the pot rather than finding a solution that might work to lessen the influence of Christianity. I think that pure Secularism has been fairly effective with this, whereas Satanists seem to be a minor fringe movement at most.

I mean, Satan is a figure within Christianity. If you are opposed to Christianity, especially right-wing, fundamentalism, isn't embracing Satan just another aspect of that religion? Albeit an inverted form of it? But I guess maybe that is their point.

It seems to me that they are not so much rejecting Christianity, but are rather turning it upside down. I would think that an out right rejection of all Christian elements and motifs would be more effective, and certainly less provocative. Of course, it seems that these folks are being deliberately provocative. I just question whether that is really a good idea. But, to each their own, I guess.

I will say that these Satanists are bold. I personally find the idea to be a bit distasteful and maybe not a smart move politically. I mean, why provoke the Christians by identifying with the figure in their religion that is the personification of evil? But whatever else you can say about Satanism, it does show a lot of nerve to take such a radical cultural position.

Donal2018

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Re: Conservative Women vs. the Dark Arts
« Reply #21 on: December 14, 2018, 11:10:42 pm »
Thanks for posting that link to a Satanist group's web site. I always found some of the ideas behind some brands of Satanism to be questionable. If you are really opposed to the tyranny of Abrahamic Religion, is it really efficacious to identify with what is arguably the symbol and personification of evil to so many Christians?

It seems like stirring the pot rather than finding a solution that might work to lessen the influence of Christianity. I think that pure Secularism has been fairly effective with this, whereas Satanists seem to be a minor fringe movement at most.

I mean, Satan is a figure within Christianity. If you are opposed to Christianity, especially right-wing, fundamentalism, isn't embracing Satan just another aspect of that religion? Albeit an inverted form of it? But I guess maybe that is their point.

It seems to me that they are not so much rejecting Christianity, but are rather turning it upside down. I would think that an out right rejection of all Christian elements and motifs would be more effective, and certainly less provocative. Of course, it seems that these folks are being deliberately provocative. I just question whether that is really a good idea. But, to each their own, I guess.

I will say that these Satanists are bold. I personally find the idea to be a bit distasteful and maybe not a smart move politically. I mean, why provoke the Christians by identifying with the figure in their religion that is the personification of evil? But whatever else you can say about Satanism, it does show a lot of nerve to take such a radical cultural position.

I would also note from further reading of the Church of Azazel site that these folks are clearly not just taking a political position, but also a philosophical and religious position. They seem to believe that their Gods and Goddesses are real, and not merely symbolic instruments for their opposition to the Abrahamic Traditions. I did not mean to imply in my prior post that their views were strictly political, but acknowledge that they have a strongly argued theological view.   

EclecticWheel

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Re: Conservative Women vs. the Dark Arts
« Reply #22 on: December 14, 2018, 11:31:00 pm »
I would also note from further reading of the Church of Azazel site that these folks are clearly not just taking a political position, but also a philosophical and religious position. They seem to believe that their Gods and Goddesses are real, and not merely symbolic instruments for their opposition to the Abrahamic Traditions. I did not mean to imply in my prior post that their views were strictly political, but acknowledge that they have a strongly argued theological view.

Satanists are diverse.  Only a minority are a sort of reverse Christianity, believing in Christian doctrines but rooting for the "bad" guy.  This link explains a little about evil and Satan:

http://theisticsatanism.com/varieties/FAQ-TS.html#evil

There are some forms of Satanism I respect more than others.  I respect the group I have linked to for sure.  I also like The Satanic Temple which is basically a religious humanist group.


Part of Satanic and Luciferian paths in general is antinomianism, which is a transgressive breaking of taboos and/or moral codes.  This can be done skillfully or not, of course.  For example, the Satanic Temple has had Baphomet statues displayed at Little Rock, Arkansas to protest the display of the Ten Commandments in ways that violate separation of church and state.

Satan becomes a symbol of this spiritual practice because of the associations he has culturally.  Some Satanists understand the devil to be a metaphor or symbol, whereas others like the first group I linked to have more realists views.  Even those with realist views do not tend to have a Christian view of the devil.

My personal moral code:

Love wisely, and do what thou wilt.

Donal2018

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Re: Conservative Women vs. the Dark Arts
« Reply #23 on: December 14, 2018, 11:52:04 pm »
Satanists are diverse.  Only a minority are a sort of reverse Christianity, believing in Christian doctrines but rooting for the "bad" guy.  This link explains a little about evil and Satan:

http://theisticsatanism.com/varieties/FAQ-TS.html#evil

There are some forms of Satanism I respect more than others.  I respect the group I have linked to for sure.  I also like The Satanic Temple which is basically a religious humanist group.


Part of Satanic and Luciferian paths in general is antinomianism, which is a transgressive breaking of taboos and/or moral codes.  This can be done skillfully or not, of course.  For example, the Satanic Temple has had Baphomet statues displayed at Little Rock, Arkansas to protest the display of the Ten Commandments in ways that violate separation of church and state.

Satan becomes a symbol of this spiritual practice because of the associations he has culturally.  Some Satanists understand the devil to be a metaphor or symbol, whereas others like the first group I linked to have more realists views.  Even those with realist views do not tend to have a Christian view of the devil.

Well, it is an interesting topic that bears some reading and thought. My personal view is that using an idea of Satan to oppose Christian Dogma is probably throwing more fuel on the fire than anything else. If your purpose is to oppose fundamentalism of all kinds, I would think that a form of secular humanism or religious humanism might be more effective.

The solution to overly conservative religion, in my view, is more liberal religion, maybe allied with modern secularists. That said, I am a strong believer of religious freedom, freedom of thought, freedom of association. So if someone identifies as some form of Satanist, I might not think that it is a great idea, but I will defend their right to believe, or not believe, in what they will.

Darkhawk

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Re: Conservative Women vs. the Dark Arts
« Reply #24 on: December 15, 2018, 01:39:33 am »
That Pagan Family Tree was quite something. Thanks for posting it. The diversity of beliefs can be a bit overwhelming.

There are reasons I bang the drum about modern paganism being a sociocultural movement, not a religious category; it is way too polysemous to be even remotely understood if people are hung up on "beliefs" or even "shared practices" which is marginally more useful.
as the water grinds the stone
we rise and fall
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we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

EnderDragonFire

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Re: Conservative Women vs. the Dark Arts
« Reply #25 on: December 15, 2018, 03:33:41 am »
There are reasons I bang the drum about modern paganism being a sociocultural movement, not a religious category

Eh, I still see it as a religious category. It's not a Monophyletic group, to borrow biological terminology, but rather a Paraphyletic group. It has many different ancestors and not everything under the pagan umbrella comes from the same place, but pagan religions have certain shared characteristics, or at the very least lackcertain characteristics that define other groups.
"The worshippers of the gods go to them; to the manes go the ancestor-worshippers; to the Deities who preside over the elements go their worshippers; My devotees come to Me." ... "Whichever devotee desires to adore whatever such Deity with faith, in all such votaries I make that particular faith unshakable. Endowed with that faith, a votary performs the worship of that particular deity and obtains the fruits thereof, these being granted by Me alone." - Sri Krishna

Sefiru

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Re: Conservative Women vs. the Dark Arts
« Reply #26 on: December 17, 2018, 06:43:01 pm »
My personal view is that using an idea of Satan to oppose Christian Dogma is probably throwing more fuel on the fire than anything else.

You say that like it's a bad thing. To extend your metaphor, sometimes you need a little fire to shed light on an issue.

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