collapse

Important Announcement

Changing the Guard at The Cauldron

Sunflower is the new Host of The Cauldron: A Pagan Forum
Please read this thread for more information.

* "Unable to verify referring url. Please go back and try again" Problem Logging In?

If you get an "Unable to verify referring url. Please go back and try again" error when you try to log in, you need to be sure you are accessing the board with a url that starts with "https://ecauldron.com".  If it starts with https://www.ecauldron.com" (or "http://www.ecauldron.com") you will get this error because "www.ecauldron.com" is not technically the same website as "ecauldron.com". Moving to the more secure "https" means it is more picky about such things.

Author Topic: Connecting felt feeling of ancient pagans and todays 'Tebow' Christians  (Read 5136 times)

Darkhawk

  • Senior Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 4831
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 719
    • View Profile
    • Suns in her Branches
  • Religion: An American Werewolf in the Akhet; Kemetic; Feri; Imaginary Baltic Heathen; Discordian; CoX; Etc.
  • Preferred Pronouns: any of he, she, they
Quote from: LAGoff;115252
So by nature, I include everything that is NOT God(who is the creator of all), which includes time and space and human society.

 
So a small god, then.

I like 'em bigger.
as the water grinds the stone
we rise and fall
as our ashes turn to dust
we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

Jack

  • Adept Member
  • ********
  • Join Date: Apr 2012
  • Location: Cascadia
  • Posts: 3168
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 90
    • View Profile
    • Jack of Many Trades
  • Religion: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • Preferred Pronouns: he/him/his
Connecting felt feeling of ancient pagans and todays 'Tebow' Christians
« Reply #31 on: July 11, 2013, 12:30:50 pm »
Quote from: LAGoff;115244
Yeah, I would really like to find out about the pagan religions the Israelites encountered in the OT.


I'm on my phone right now, but if by "encountered" you mean "emerged from and we're influenced by" I'll come back and make some recs later.

Quote
Could it be said that what the ancient(non-pig-eating) Israelites did (beginning circa late 2nd milienium bce Canaan) was that they were the first(as in God's first born son Ex.4:22-23) to 'escape'(I know, pejorative) the cosmic religious mindset which was- and is still in many places-  that the world/nature/the cosmos/the universe(should I capitalize these words?) is so groovy, magical, alive, holy that one feels impelled to get down on ones knees and 'groove'(I am shy about using the word worship, but would it be correct to use that word{ie. worship} in reference to this?) It?

It could be said, if you wanted to be wrong. Which does seem to be your goal so far.

Of course worship would be the correct word! You make it pretty clear that you have already figured out, presumably by rote repetition, that it's offensive to refer to what everyone else does as "grooving" or any other verb that implies that it's not really worship, we're just too dumb to tell the difference.

Do I think the ancient Jews were the first to go beyond animism? Not really. Were they the first to go henotheistic as a culture? Maybe - I know there was a thread of it in Egypt at one point but I don't think it caught on, and I know that's a common thread in Hinduism but it's certainly not the only one. Polytheism doesn't mean worshipping the world and the cosmos necessarily, any more than Jews or Christians are worshipping it just because G_d made it/is in it.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2013, 12:32:51 pm by Jack »
Hail Mara, Lady of Good Things!
"The only way to cope with something deadly serious is to try to treat it a little lightly." -Madeleine L'Engle

Jack

  • Adept Member
  • ********
  • Join Date: Apr 2012
  • Location: Cascadia
  • Posts: 3168
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 90
    • View Profile
    • Jack of Many Trades
  • Religion: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • Preferred Pronouns: he/him/his
Connecting felt feeling of ancient pagans and todays 'Tebow' Christians
« Reply #32 on: July 11, 2013, 12:39:01 pm »
Quote from: LAGoff;115252
"human society" is one of those- I would say created- "things" that I include when I mentioned all those created things less than(perhaps pejorative?) God(The Creator).
I certainly many times feel the groove that human society provides and that I am tempted to worship when I am sometimes in the right crowd, but I don't worship it because only God(YHWH) is to be worshipped.
So by nature, I include everything that is NOT God(who is the creator of all), which includes time and space and human society.

Interestingly enough, you know where else I see people talk about how they are tempted to worship humanity or society, but instead they know all worship must go to their one God who created all those things but apparently doesn't think much of them? Those same evangelical Christians. Weird, huh?
Hail Mara, Lady of Good Things!
"The only way to cope with something deadly serious is to try to treat it a little lightly." -Madeleine L'Engle

Jack

  • Adept Member
  • ********
  • Join Date: Apr 2012
  • Location: Cascadia
  • Posts: 3168
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 90
    • View Profile
    • Jack of Many Trades
  • Religion: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • Preferred Pronouns: he/him/his
Connecting felt feeling of ancient pagans and todays 'Tebow' Christians
« Reply #33 on: July 11, 2013, 12:42:56 pm »
Quote from: Darkhawk;115256
So a small god, then.

I like 'em bigger.

I'm inclined to approach it from the other direction - the concept or idea that brought forth all things is just so far beyond them that worshipping is unnecessary and abstract, like calling the president because the paperboy keeps missing your porch.

I like my gods smaller - small enough to notice me and understand what I need and want. :)
Hail Mara, Lady of Good Things!
"The only way to cope with something deadly serious is to try to treat it a little lightly." -Madeleine L'Engle

yewberry

  • Grand Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 1775
  • Total likes: 1
    • View Profile
Quote from: LAGoff;115253
So how would you characterize the "surrounding theologies"?

 
How 'bout not like you did.  Insultingly.  Like everyone in this thread has mentioned and you've utterly ignored because you seem either oblivious or troll-ish.

Brina

Darkhawk

  • Senior Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 4831
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 719
    • View Profile
    • Suns in her Branches
  • Religion: An American Werewolf in the Akhet; Kemetic; Feri; Imaginary Baltic Heathen; Discordian; CoX; Etc.
  • Preferred Pronouns: any of he, she, they
Quote from: Jack;115262
I'm inclined to approach it from the other direction - the concept or idea that brought forth all things is just so far beyond them that worshipping is unnecessary and abstract, like calling the president because the paperboy keeps missing your porch.

I like my gods smaller - small enough to notice me and understand what I need and want. :)

 
I tend towards the feeling that a god that can create a universe but not manifest in any meaningful way within it is both small and abstract; the largeness I'm concerned with is in the space in which I actually exist.  Which may be "small enough to understand what I need and want", because it's actually got some damn things in common with me, but still large in significance because actually doing something relevant.

(But really at this point I'm just making size queen jokes.  I mean, I could talk about the amazing similarities between the underlying theological structures of the Temple in Jerusalem and every Egyptian temple ever, since the floor plans and reasons for those floor plans are remarkably similar, but what would be the point?)
as the water grinds the stone
we rise and fall
as our ashes turn to dust
we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

Chabas

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 656
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Quote from: LAGoff;115252
"human society" is one of those- I would say created- "things" that I include when I mentioned all those created things less than(perhaps pejorative?) God(The Creator).
I certainly many times feel the groove that human society provides and that I am tempted to worship when I am sometimes in the right crowd, but I don't worship it because only God(YHWH) is to be worshipped.
So by nature, I include everything that is NOT God(who is the creator of all), which includes time and space and human society.


Tip #2 for having a decent conversation: try sticking with generally accepted definitions of words, or at least explaining AHEAD of time when you're not. Makes things easier.

--Chabas

Jack

  • Adept Member
  • ********
  • Join Date: Apr 2012
  • Location: Cascadia
  • Posts: 3168
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 90
    • View Profile
    • Jack of Many Trades
  • Religion: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • Preferred Pronouns: he/him/his
Quote from: Darkhawk;115269
I tend towards the feeling that a god that can create a universe but not manifest in any meaningful way within it is both small and abstract; the largeness I'm concerned with is in the space in which I actually exist.  Which may be "small enough to understand what I need and want", because it's actually got some damn things in common with me, but still large in significance because actually doing something relevant.


I suspect this is one of those things where we each go in opposite directions and end up at the same point. Like physics. So for me, the abstract largeness of the Tao exists, but in some ways it's kind of meaningless, too. Large enough to be relevant is definitely important... though I've worked with wights that fit that definition, too.

Hmm, this is definitely interesting and needs more thoughtful chewing on my part.

Quote
(But really at this point I'm just making size queen jokes.  I mean, I could talk about the amazing similarities between the underlying theological structures of the Temple in Jerusalem and every Egyptian temple ever, since the floor plans and reasons for those floor plans are remarkably similar, but what would be the point?)

 
I always figured that was just Because Exodus, and then I read some theories about the lack of evidence of the Exodus. So I'm looking for new thoughts on the subject, and could be interested in yours. ;)
Hail Mara, Lady of Good Things!
"The only way to cope with something deadly serious is to try to treat it a little lightly." -Madeleine L'Engle

stephyjh

  • Grand Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 1597
  • Total likes: 2
    • View Profile
Connecting felt feeling of ancient pagans and todays 'Tebow' Christians
« Reply #38 on: July 11, 2013, 03:31:38 pm »
Quote from: Darkhawk;115256
So a small god, then.

I like 'em bigger.

Size queen. :p
A heretic blast has been blown in the west,
That what is no sense must be nonsense.

-Robert Burns

mandrina

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 890
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Quote from: LAGoff;115255
Now I may be getting somewhere: Tebow has a very close relationship with his god(Jesus).
I assumed pagans did(in the ancient days) too.
I will think about this.
Thanks.  Though you and your professor may be wrong, its worth chewing cud over.

 
Honestly, what are your credentials that you are questioning a professor teaching a course about hinduism, which is a very ancient religion with lots and lots of history and evidence still around about it?

Honestly, everything I've seen with ROman religion suggests that they didn't have a 'close friendly relationship" with their gods, heck they didn't even require belief of individuals, just the ritual.  Those Christians got in trouble cause they wouldn't do the state worship.  IIRC, the Jews had a special dispensation to not have to worhip the roman gods in the state things.

Anybosy who knows better can correct me on the roman gods, preferably with a reference to a good source.
Katrina

"I have a bad feeling about this."  Every good guy in the Star Wars saga, and an occasional bad guy as well.

Jack

  • Adept Member
  • ********
  • Join Date: Apr 2012
  • Location: Cascadia
  • Posts: 3168
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 90
    • View Profile
    • Jack of Many Trades
  • Religion: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • Preferred Pronouns: he/him/his
Quote from: LAGoff;115255
Thanks.  Though you and your professor may be wrong, its worth chewing cud over.

 
For what it's worth to you, which is probably not much, the professor of the Hinduism class I took in college said similar things, and she was both a Hindu scholar and a practicing Hindu.
Hail Mara, Lady of Good Things!
"The only way to cope with something deadly serious is to try to treat it a little lightly." -Madeleine L'Engle

Jack

  • Adept Member
  • ********
  • Join Date: Apr 2012
  • Location: Cascadia
  • Posts: 3168
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 90
    • View Profile
    • Jack of Many Trades
  • Religion: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • Preferred Pronouns: he/him/his
Quote from: Jack;115258
I'm on my phone right now, but if by "encountered" you mean "emerged from and we're influenced by" I'll come back and make some recs later.

 
I think a good place for you to start is with this page of links. The FAQs all still work to the best of my knowledge, though some of the other links have become defunct over time.
Hail Mara, Lady of Good Things!
"The only way to cope with something deadly serious is to try to treat it a little lightly." -Madeleine L'Engle

LAGoff

  • Sr. Newbie
  • **
  • Join Date: Jul 2013
  • Posts: 11
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
    • http://lagoff.livejournal.com
Quote from: Jack;115262
I'm inclined to approach it from the other direction - the concept or idea that brought forth all things is just so far beyond them that worshipping is unnecessary and abstract, like calling the president because the paperboy keeps missing your porch.

I like my gods smaller - small enough to notice me and understand what I need and want. :)

 
This("liking my gods smaller") is what I assumed ancient paganism was about. I picture it like wifi: I have the god of my room; then there's the houselhold god who I share with my family; then there's the god of the area I live in; and then there's "so the far beyond... abstract" god over all gods.
 
What is perplexing me is what someone said here about how his/her professor said that the ancient pagans didn't have a personal relationship with [even] the "god of their room".  (He/she also included Roman Catholicism in with this)

Can someone correct me(if I'm mistaken) here about my wifi view? and also why you think these ancients(and todays RC's) didn't have a personal relationship with their gods? and how each of you see the "god"/powers and how it looks like in your life?

Jack

  • Adept Member
  • ********
  • Join Date: Apr 2012
  • Location: Cascadia
  • Posts: 3168
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 90
    • View Profile
    • Jack of Many Trades
  • Religion: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • Preferred Pronouns: he/him/his
Quote from: LAGoff;115350
This("liking my gods smaller") is what I assumed ancient paganism was about. I picture it like wifi: I have the god of my room; then there's the houselhold god who I share with my family; then there's the god of the area I live in; and then there's "so the far beyond... abstract" god over all gods.


You can have a god who's small enough to listen to you without having the kind of "personal relationship" that's associated with evangelical Christianity and some strains of modern paganism. I suspect someone who felt the need to loudly and publicly praise their gods every time they successfully did their job would have been looked at slightly askance in most ancient cultures.
 
Quote
What is perplexing me is what someone said here about how his/her professor said that the ancient pagans didn't have a personal relationship with [even] the "god of their room".  (He/she also included Roman Catholicism in with this)

Can someone correct me(if I'm mistaken) here about my wifi view? and also why you think these ancients(and todays RC's) didn't have a personal relationship with their gods? and how each of you see the "god"/powers and how it looks like in your life?

 
I have a blog. It's linked right below this post. If you want to read about my religion, you can go there. I have absolutely no faith you'll actually read what I write in a meaningful way, so I'm disinclined to write a lengthy summary for you here.
Hail Mara, Lady of Good Things!
"The only way to cope with something deadly serious is to try to treat it a little lightly." -Madeleine L'Engle

Sophia C

  • Grand Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Aug 2012
  • Location: London, UK
  • *
  • Posts: 1967
  • Country: gb
  • Total likes: 2
    • View Profile
    • http://leithincluan.wordpress.com/
  • Religion: Gaelic-tinged polytheism, quite attached to Cailleach Bhearra, Narnian heretic, some Christian stuff
  • Preferred Pronouns: They/them
Quote from: LAGoff;115072
I should add that I smell 'paganism' in Tebow and televangelism and the most of Christianity, although I am also studying the pagan factor(or lack of) of the less pagan(in my opinion)  original church of James/Jerusalem/Ebionites/Nazarenes that died out circa 2nd or 3rd CE(certainly by Constantine's time).


The phenomenon of being 'close' to one's god is probably a modern one. However, it exists across almost all religions. There is nothing in any one religion that makes it more susceptible to this approach to god/s. It is more about (late) modern culture than it is about a specific religion or theology.

In 'America's Four Gods', Frose and Bader argue that there are four primary ways in which members of almost every religion see their god/s today: the authoritative god, the benevolent god, the critical god and the distant god. This is a model, not a theology, so it's more about one's personal relationship to one's god(s) than about one's theology. I think they make a very strong argument for this - and they make it clear that the 'four gods' exist across all religions that they have encountered - it's a cultural thing, not a theological thing. In the same way, many modern religious phenomena are more closely linked to culture than specific religious context. (Note that I'm a sociologist, and so I would say that, wouldn't I. But still.)

By extension, the phenomenon that some theologians have (somewhat unhelpfully) called 'Jesus is my boyfriend' is actually cross-religious, more related to modern America (and the modern 'West') than to any specific theology or cosmology. Looking at Frose and Bader's arguments, I think this could fit with their 'benevolent god' model. It could also be seen as an extension of the celebrity-focused, informal and highly personal culture we tend to experience today. The only problem is that sociology tends to be quite ahistorical, and most sociologists don't discuss the origins of this phenomenon. In my personal opinion (and I'm a sociologist not an historian*, so I may be wrong), I suspect that in Christianity it is linked to substitutionary atonement theology, which is evangelical and fairly recent. It was definitely not a theology of the early church - we can't find at all until the tenth century, and it doesn't pop up in its modern form until the Reformers, who were critiquing the Catholic concept of salvation by works, and needed a concept that focused on the grace of God alone. Even then, it doesn't start to look quite so personal until more recently.

And much of evangelical Christianity is nothing like this personal. The 'authoritarian god' has always been a prominent approach in evangelicalism - in the Welsh revivals, for example. (My 'Welsh Chapel' great-grandfather seemed to believe that everyone was going to hell except the twenty-five members of his chapel. I'm only slightly exaggerating.) With the recent anti-hell theologies emerging from the more 'benevolent god' end of the evangelical church (such as Rob Bell's work), a lot of evangelicals on the other end of the spectrum are getting louder. Think of all the Hell Houses you see around Halloween, as an example. 'Fire and brimstone' preaching and theology has been a feature of Christianity since the Reformation, and it's not going anywhere.

And you can find all these phenomena across most of the mainstream religions in the West. Judaism included, by the way.

*I'm a doctor, Jim, not a mechanic...
"We're all stories, in the end. Make it a good one, eh?"
- Doctor Who

Tags:
 

Related Topics

  Subject / Started by Replies Last post
10 Replies
4280 Views
Last post June 24, 2012, 02:11:28 pm
by nancyrowina
134 Replies
10621 Views
Last post February 26, 2013, 06:11:41 pm
by Owl
0 Replies
2400 Views
Last post June 20, 2012, 12:03:33 pm
by LyricFox
19 Replies
1364 Views
Last post January 26, 2013, 09:17:34 am
by Jenett
0 Replies
1085 Views
Last post March 22, 2014, 07:05:06 pm
by anonymus

* Who's Online

  • Dot Guests: 16
  • Dot Hidden: 0
  • Dot Users: 0

There aren't any users online.

* Please Donate!

The Cauldron's server is expensive and requires monthly payments. Please become a Bronze, Silver or Gold Donor if you can. Donations are needed every month. Without member support, we can't afford the server.

* In Memoriam

Chavi (2006)
Elspeth (2010)
Marilyn (2013)

* Cauldron Staff

Host:
Sunflower

Message Board Staff
Board Coordinator:
Darkhawk

Assistant Board Coordinator:
Aster Breo

Senior Staff:
Aisling, Jenett, Sefiru

Staff:
Allaya, Chatelaine, EclecticWheel, HarpingHawke, Kylara, PerditaPickle, rocquelaire

Discord Chat Staff
Chat Coordinator:
Morag

Cauldron Council:
Bob, Catja, Emma-Eldritch, Fausta, Jubes, Kelly, LyricFox, Phouka, Sperran, Star, Steve, Tana

Site Administrator:
Randall