collapse

* "Unable to verify referring url. Please go back and try again" Problem Logging In?

If you get an "Unable to verify referring url. Please go back and try again" error when you try to log in, you need to be sure you are accessing the board with a url that starts with "https://ecauldron.com".  If it starts with https://www.ecauldron.com" (or "http://www.ecauldron.com") you will get this error because "www.ecauldron.com" is not technically the same website as "ecauldron.com". Moving to the more secure "https" means it is more picky about such things.

Author Topic: Connecting felt feeling of ancient pagans and todays 'Tebow' Christians  (Read 5224 times)

Darkhawk

  • Senior Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 4854
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 734
    • View Profile
    • Suns in her Branches
  • Religion: An American Werewolf in the Akhet; Kemetic; Feri; Imaginary Baltic Heathen; Discordian; CoX; Etc.
  • Preferred Pronouns: any of he, she, they
Quote from: LAGoff;115163
There's got to be one pagan writer before 30 CE(after that we cant be sure if they were contaminated by the powerful emerging force of Christianity) who wrote of his daily walk with Mithra, or Adonis, or Horus, Tammuz, Ishtar, Marduk, etc.

 
So you want something as completely modern in concept as a personal religious narrative, and you want it from someone elite enough to be literate and lucky enough to have their texts preserved.

Your best shot is going to be reading ancient Greek philosophers, I suspect.  They do have a rather snobbish, parochial, and elitist approach to religious theory, of course; disdain for ordinary people is, unfortunately, not completely modern.
as the water grinds the stone
we rise and fall
as our ashes turn to dust
we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

HeartShadow

  • Adept Member
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 2195
  • Total likes: 3
    • View Profile
    • http://www.flamekeeping.org
Connecting felt feeling of ancient pagans and todays 'Tebow' Christians
« Reply #16 on: July 10, 2013, 02:06:54 pm »
Quote from: LAGoff;115163
That's why I only mentioned Nazareth and Jerusalem- circa 30 of common era.
(Today, one could argue that the 'pagans' are the hicks in the bible belt{roughly, 'the country'}, and the sophisticates{who the hicks should look to to get caught up} are the Manhattan/Hollywood/Zen/New Agers in the big city; but, as you say, with the internet, those boundaries don't really apply any more in the physical sense of heath/city.

I assume that the paganism of today is roughly similar to the paganism before the common era; but I cant be sure unless I can read a testimony from the daily felt feeling standpoint of an ancient practitioner(s).  There's got to be one pagan writer before 30 CE(after that we cant be sure if they were contaminated by the powerful emerging force of Christianity) who wrote of his daily walk with Mithra, or Adonis, or Horus, Tammuz, Ishtar, Marduk, etc.
I assume India and the far east in general was, and is now full of uncontaminated by Christianity/Islam paganism.  Perhaps I should look there for these writings because perhaps the Christians(and Muslims) destroyed all these writings.  

Again, I am sorry for putting you down.

You continue to NOT MAKE SENSE.  Seriously.

Modern paganism is just that.  Modern.  And your continued inability to post without disparagement of what you claim to look for makes me not want to help.  At all.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2013, 03:04:02 pm by SunflowerP »

Jack

  • Adept Member
  • ********
  • Join Date: Apr 2012
  • Location: Cascadia
  • Posts: 3168
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 90
    • View Profile
    • Jack of Many Trades
  • Religion: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • Preferred Pronouns: he/him/his
Quote from: LAGoff;115163
I assume that the paganism of today is roughly similar to the paganism before the common era;


You can assume that, but any recon that's spent time in neo-pagan or neo-Wiccan circles will laugh hysterically.

Quote
but I cant be sure unless I can read a testimony from the daily felt feeling standpoint of an ancient practitioner(s).  There's got to be one pagan writer before 30 CE(after that we cant be sure if they were contaminated by the powerful emerging force of Christianity) who wrote of his daily walk with Mithra, or Adonis, or Horus, Tammuz, Ishtar, Marduk, etc.


You keep saying that this has to exist and... it doesn't have to exist. We have very little that was written by individuals before then. Almost everything we do have talks a lot more about what Important And Kingly People And Priests And Warriors did. Jimbobicles, Random Greek Pagan Farmer, didn't have a livejournal and didn't leave a record. I suppose you could read about, say, Semele or Psyche, who did get up close and personal with their gods, but you're not going to read it from their own pens.

Quote
I assume India and the far east in general was, and is now full of uncontaminated by Christianity/Islam paganism.  Perhaps I should look there for these writings because perhaps the Christians(and Muslims) destroyed all the(European/Mediteranean/Middle Eastern) pagan writings.


Ahahahahahahahaha.

Hahahahahaha.

Hahaha.

... Oh, you're serious.

Quote
Again, I am sorry for putting you down.

 
Somehow I just don't believe you.
Hail Mara, Lady of Good Things!
"The only way to cope with something deadly serious is to try to treat it a little lightly." -Madeleine L'Engle

LAGoff

  • Sr. Newbie
  • **
  • Join Date: Jul 2013
  • Posts: 11
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
    • http://lagoff.livejournal.com
Quote from: Jack;115166
me: "I assume that the paganism of today is roughly similar to the paganism before the common era";
you: "You can assume that, but any recon that's spent time in neo-pagan or neo-Wiccan circles will laugh hysterically."QUOTE

Are you saying that there is some fundamental difference between the ancient and modern mind?

and if not, then what was wrong/deficient with the old time pagan religions that the modern pagans had to so fundamentally change them?

in other words, what is the fundamental difference between them so that it would be useless for me to understand the old pagan religions by reading about the new pagan religions?

would 'you'(pl.) consider the vedas, mahabarata, ancient Shinto texts, ancient Zoroastrian texts(if they exist) a good place to continue my quest to understand the ancient pagan mind?

yewberry

  • Grand Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 1775
  • Total likes: 1
    • View Profile
Quote from: LAGoff;115172
Are you saying that there is some fundamental difference between the ancient and modern mind?

He's suggesting that there are many fundamental differences between ancient pagan beliefs and neo-pagan beliefs.  Because there really are, whether or not you believe it.

Is this some enormous logical leap for you?  And if so, why?

Brina
« Last Edit: July 10, 2013, 03:11:39 pm by yewberry »

Jack

  • Adept Member
  • ********
  • Join Date: Apr 2012
  • Location: Cascadia
  • Posts: 3168
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 90
    • View Profile
    • Jack of Many Trades
  • Religion: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • Preferred Pronouns: he/him/his
Quote from: LAGoff;115172
Are you saying that there is some fundamental difference between the ancient and modern mind?


No, I said there's a fundamental difference between ancient and modern practice.

Quote
and if not, then what was wrong/deficient with the old time pagan religions that the modern pagans had to so fundamentally change them?


The problem is that we are lacking in a great deal of information on ancient religions. Hell, we barely know what early heretical Christians practiced. As a heathen I have... a couple of brief references to high seats and hospitality practices, and a story about Frey getting paraded through his community, and... I think that's about it.

As a Baltic-flavored pagan I have some modern festivals, which mostly had the religion scrubbed out of them. There are some awesome people in Latvia and Lithuania doing the work to try to... re-religion them, but it's slow going.

So we just plain can't use a lot of ancient paganism, because it no longer exists. It's not an option.

Quote
in other words, what is the fundamental difference between them so that it would be useless for me to understand the old pagan religions by reading about the new pagan religions?


Much of modern "neo-pagan magic" is drawn from medieval alchemical and ceremonial magic. A modern neo-pagan ritual that you might attend probably starts with casting a circle and calling the quarters, which I don't think any ancient pagans would recognize, and that's just in the first five minutes.

Quote
would 'you'(pl.) consider the vedas, mahabarata, ancient Shinto texts, ancient Zoroastrian texts(if they exist) a good place to continue my quest to understand the ancient pagan mind?

 
The Vedas and the Mahabharata, the Nihongi and the Kojiki, (and also there's this place called CHINA it's pretty awesome you may have heard of it) are good reading and I recommend them. Have a party. Shinto and Hinduism are also LIVING TRADITIONS that are still being practiced, so you can understand modern people, too! It's pretty amazing how that works.

Also Islam is the most popular religion in Asia, that's why I was laughing at your statement.
Hail Mara, Lady of Good Things!
"The only way to cope with something deadly serious is to try to treat it a little lightly." -Madeleine L'Engle

SunflowerP

  • Host
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Location: Calgary AB
  • Posts: 8308
  • Country: ca
  • Total likes: 266
  • Don't teach your grandmother to suck eggs!
    • View Profile
    • If You Ain't Makin' Waves, You Ain't Kickin' Hard Enough
  • Religion: Eclectic religious Witchcraft
  • Preferred Pronouns: sie/hir/hirs/hirself
Quote from: LAGoff;115172


 
A Reminder:
Hi, LAGoff,

Just a quick note:  Please leave the quote code (the parts inside square brackets] intact. If you're unable to trim the quoted text without damaging the code, it's better if you don't trim. The code provides a trackback link to the post being quoted, which is why our  rules require quoting.

This isn't a formal warning, just a reminder.  No  reply is necessary, but if you have questions or need clarification,  please feel free to contact a member of staff privately.

Thanks!
Sunflower, TC Forum Staff
I'm the AntiFa genderqueer commie eclectic wiccan Mod your alt-right bros warned you about.
I do so have a life; I just live part of it online!
“Selfishness is not living as one wishes to live, it is asking others to live as one wishes to live.” - Oscar Wilde
"Nobody's good at anything until they practice." - Brina (Yewberry)
My much-neglected blog "If You Ain't Makin' Waves, You Ain't Kickin' Hard Enough"

Darkhawk

  • Senior Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 4854
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 734
    • View Profile
    • Suns in her Branches
  • Religion: An American Werewolf in the Akhet; Kemetic; Feri; Imaginary Baltic Heathen; Discordian; CoX; Etc.
  • Preferred Pronouns: any of he, she, they
Quote from: LAGoff;115172
and if not, then what was wrong/deficient with the old time pagan religions that the modern pagans had to so fundamentally change them?

 
Even if we managed by sheer overwhelming luck to manage to fill in the gaps so perfectly that we actually successfully recreated them, we will never know we did so.

And that's assuming you are only talking about reconstructionist religions; the stuff that is, you know, modern paganism and has no pretense at even attempting to recreate ancient paganisms is even less likely to succeed at creation of identical material ex nihilo.

Look, man, I'm not going around asking you what's wrong with the true name of your god, or whether there is some fundamental differences between the minds of ancient and modern that you don't know what it is.  Consider that you are being about as respectful of modern paganisms as someone who suggests that you're not really Jewish because you're not offering sacrifices at the Temple.
as the water grinds the stone
we rise and fall
as our ashes turn to dust
we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

LAGoff

  • Sr. Newbie
  • **
  • Join Date: Jul 2013
  • Posts: 11
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
    • http://lagoff.livejournal.com
Quote from: Jack;115142
.
Now if you wanted books comparing early Judaism to Canaanite, Babylonian, and other nearby pagan religions, those I could probably help you with.
 .


Yeah, I would really like to find out about the pagan religions the Israelites encountered in the OT.

Could it be said that what the ancient(non-pig-eating) Israelites did (beginning circa late 2nd milienium bce Canaan) was that they were the first(as in God's first born son Ex.4:22-23) to 'escape'(I know, pejorative) the cosmic religious mindset which was- and is still in many places-  that the world/nature/the cosmos/the universe(should I capitalize these words?) is so groovy, magical, alive, holy that one feels impelled to get down on ones knees and 'groove'(I am shy about using the word worship, but would it be correct to use that word{ie. worship} in reference to this?) It?

Chabas

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 656
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Quote from: LAGoff;115244
to 'escape'(I know, pejorative) the cosmic religious mindset


So if you KNOW it's pejorative, and it's been pointed out to you that that's problematic several times now, why not choose a different word? You keep doing this thing where you say something distinctly unfriendly, then point out that you're aware it's unfriendly, as if that would make it somehow more friendly. Why not just make an effort to get along by not being totally dismissive of your audience?

Quote
which was- and is still in many places-  that the world/nature/the cosmos/the universe(should I capitalize these words?) is so groovy, magical, alive, holy that one feels impelled to get down on ones knees and 'groove'(I am shy about using the word worship, but would it be correct to use that word{ie. worship} in reference to this?) It?

 
You know, you're missing a LOT of the point of a lot of the religions you're talking about. Ancient Egyptian religion, f'ex, was far more focused on human society than it was on nature.

--Chabas

Darkhawk

  • Senior Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 4854
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 734
    • View Profile
    • Suns in her Branches
  • Religion: An American Werewolf in the Akhet; Kemetic; Feri; Imaginary Baltic Heathen; Discordian; CoX; Etc.
  • Preferred Pronouns: any of he, she, they
Quote from: LAGoff;115244
Could it be said that what the ancient(non-pig-eating) Israelites did (beginning circa late 2nd milienium bce Canaan) was that they were the first(as in God's first born son Ex.4:22-23) to 'escape'(I know, pejorative) the cosmic religious mindset which was- and is still in many places-  that the world/nature/the cosmos/the universe(should I capitalize these words?) is so groovy, magical, alive, holy that one feels impelled to get down on ones knees and 'groove'(I am shy about using the word worship, but would it be correct to use that word{ie. worship} in reference to this?) It?

 
Could it be said that you're seeking a means of justifying a belief that your religious path is in some distinct way superior to your hilariously uninformed mischaracterisations of surrounding theologies?
as the water grinds the stone
we rise and fall
as our ashes turn to dust
we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

Nyktelios

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 562
  • Total likes: 2
    • View Profile
Quote from: LAGoff;115072
I mainly am looking to see if an ancient pagan had the same relationship to their God/gods as a Christian does today: you know, did they walk, talk, love Mithra,etc. like today's Christians walk with, talk, love Christ?

 
The idea of a close, personal relationship with a deity is a very Protestant Christian one, and also one in Protestant offshoots in New Age movements. I think traditional paganism has more in common with Catholic Christianity, as far as the high ritualism, the priests, and the esthetics of the statues, candles, and incense.

I had a professor for a Hinduism course I took a few years ago in university who was telling us about Hindu rituals, and how they could be very long, tedious, and hard to follow, even for people experienced in the tradition. She explained that whole notion of religious rituals being for the purpose of getting "good feelings" is a recent, Protestant idea that most religions, especially ancient ones, don't really share.

There are modern pagans who think of the gods as their imaginary friends and think they have personal relationships with them as peers rather than as higher beings, but like I said, this is more due to Protestant influence on the New Age movement, so you probably won't find historical precedent for it in ancient pagan traditions.

LAGoff

  • Sr. Newbie
  • **
  • Join Date: Jul 2013
  • Posts: 11
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
    • http://lagoff.livejournal.com
Quote from: Chabas;115246


You know, you're missing a LOT of the point of a lot of the religions you're talking about. Ancient Egyptian religion, f'ex, was far more focused on human society than it was on nature.

--Chabas


"human society" is one of those- I would say created- "things" that I include when I mentioned all those created things less than(perhaps pejorative?) God(The Creator).
I certainly many times feel the groove that human society provides and that I am tempted to worship when I am sometimes in the right crowd, but I don't worship it because only God(YHWH) is to be worshipped.
So by nature, I include everything that is NOT God(who is the creator of all), which includes time and space and human society.

LAGoff

  • Sr. Newbie
  • **
  • Join Date: Jul 2013
  • Posts: 11
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
    • http://lagoff.livejournal.com
Quote from: Darkhawk;115249
Could it be said that you're seeking a means of justifying a belief that your religious path is in some distinct way superior to your hilariously uninformed mischaracterisations of surrounding theologies?


So how would you characterize the "surrounding theologies"?

LAGoff

  • Sr. Newbie
  • **
  • Join Date: Jul 2013
  • Posts: 11
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
    • http://lagoff.livejournal.com
Quote from: Carnelian;115250
The idea of a close, personal relationship with a deity is a very Protestant Christian one, and also one in Protestant offshoots in New Age movements. I think traditional paganism has more in common with Catholic Christianity, as far as the high ritualism, the priests, and the esthetics of the statues, candles, and incense.

I had a professor for a Hinduism course I took a few years ago in university who was telling us about Hindu rituals, and how they could be very long, tedious, and hard to follow, even for people experienced in the tradition. She explained that whole notion of religious rituals being for the purpose of getting "good feelings" is a recent, Protestant idea that most religions, especially ancient ones, don't really share.

There are modern pagans who think of the gods as their imaginary friends and think they have personal relationships with them as peers rather than as higher beings, but like I said, this is more due to Protestant influence on the New Age movement, so you probably won't find historical precedent for it in ancient pagan traditions.


Now I may be getting somewhere: Tebow has a very close relationship with his god(Jesus).
I assumed pagans did(in the ancient days) too.
I will think about this.
Thanks.  Though you and your professor may be wrong, its worth chewing cud over.

Tags:
 

Related Topics

  Subject / Started by Replies Last post
10 Replies
4338 Views
Last post June 24, 2012, 02:11:28 pm
by nancyrowina
134 Replies
10694 Views
Last post February 26, 2013, 06:11:41 pm
by Owl
0 Replies
2431 Views
Last post June 20, 2012, 12:03:33 pm
by LyricFox
19 Replies
1383 Views
Last post January 26, 2013, 09:17:34 am
by Jenett
0 Replies
1101 Views
Last post March 22, 2014, 07:05:06 pm
by anonymus

* Who's Online

  • Dot Guests: 45
  • Dot Hidden: 0
  • Dot Users: 0

There aren't any users online.

* Please Donate!

The Cauldron's server is expensive and requires monthly payments. Please become a Bronze, Silver or Gold Donor if you can. Donations are needed every month. Without member support, we can't afford the server.

* In Memoriam

Chavi (2006)
Elspeth (2010)
Marilyn (2013)

* Cauldron Staff

Host:
Sunflower

Message Board Staff
Board Coordinator:
Darkhawk

Assistant Board Coordinator:
Aster Breo

Senior Staff:
Aisling, Jenett, Sefiru

Staff:
Allaya, Chatelaine, EclecticWheel, HarpingHawke, Kylara, PerditaPickle, rocquelaire

Discord Chat Staff
Chat Coordinator:
Morag

Cauldron Council:
Bob, Catja, Emma-Eldritch, Fausta, Jubes, Kelly, LyricFox, Phouka, Sperran, Star, Steve, Tana

Site Administrator:
Randall