collapse

* "Unable to verify referring url. Please go back and try again" Problem Logging In?

If you get an "Unable to verify referring url. Please go back and try again" error when you try to log in, you need to be sure you are accessing the board with a url that starts with "https://ecauldron.com".  If it starts with https://www.ecauldron.com" (or "http://www.ecauldron.com") you will get this error because "www.ecauldron.com" is not technically the same website as "ecauldron.com". Moving to the more secure "https" means it is more picky about such things.

Author Topic: Can priests/priestesses conduct legal marriages?  (Read 3455 times)

MarieBay

  • Journeyman
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 106
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Can priests/priestesses conduct legal marriages?
« on: March 11, 2012, 10:43:08 pm »
Do pagan priests/priestesses have the legal authority to marry people?

The question just popped into my head. I'm sure the answer depends on what tradition you're looking at...

Katefox

  • Journeyman
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 127
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Can priests/priestesses conduct legal marriages?
« Reply #1 on: March 11, 2012, 11:27:29 pm »
Quote from: MarieBay;45570
Do pagan priests/priestesses have the legal authority to marry people?

The question just popped into my head. I'm sure the answer depends on what tradition you're looking at...

 
Wouldn't it also depend on whether the government recognises your tradition as able to ordain clergy?  I mean, I assume there must be some process for becoming a legal clergyperson, maybe some period of attending a recognised seminary?  Something so that someone can't just wake up one day and decide they're an ordained minister.  (And I assume that also varies by country, as to which religions are legally recognised.)

mlr52

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 781
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
    • http://www.GIN.michaellrichardson.com
Re: Can priests/priestesses conduct legal marriages?
« Reply #2 on: March 12, 2012, 12:03:09 am »
Quote from: Katefox;45575
Wouldn't it also depend on whether the government recognises your tradition as able to ordain clergy?  I mean, I assume there must be some process for becoming a legal clergyperson, maybe some period of attending a recognised seminary?  Something so that someone can't just wake up one day and decide they're an ordained minister.  (And I assume that also varies by country, as to which religions are legally recognised.)

 
Here is a link to become a ordained minister for free.  (there are other sites some charge).

http://www.themonastery.org/

Once you become a pastor, minister, rabbi or priest, you can proceed to perform baptisms, administer traditional weddings and even start your own ministry. ULC can support you with an array of online church services including ministerial training, spiritual books and guides, and many other resources.

Become a minister today, it is always free of charge. You do not have to purchase anything from ULC to be an online ordained minister. All that we ask is for you to promote freedom of and from religion and to "do that which is right." It is up to each individual to determine what is right as long as it does not infringe upon the rights of others and is within the law.
Light Your Candle, In Love and Service, Blessed Be.
I am a Notary Public for The State of New York, - I do not charge for Notary Fee\'s, I Live in Brooklyn, N.Y.

Jenett

  • Senior Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Location: Boston, MA
  • Posts: 3133
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 675
    • View Profile
    • Seeking: First steps on a path
  • Religion: Initiatory religious witchcraft
  • Preferred Pronouns: she/her
Re: Can priests/priestesses conduct legal marriages?
« Reply #3 on: March 12, 2012, 01:05:38 am »
Quote from: MarieBay;45570
Do pagan priests/priestesses have the legal authority to marry people?

The question just popped into my head. I'm sure the answer depends on what tradition you're looking at...

 
It's actually a state law issue, in the US. Some states have relatively loose requirements. Some have relatively loose requirements if it's a one-time thing (special favour for a close friend, or sibling or whatever), but tighter ones for long-term licenses. And some places get more picky.

This is one of the reasons for the growth of groups (Covenant of the Goddess, but there are tons of small regional or location based ones) beyond single tradition lines - some states are a lot happier with people issuing marriage licenses who have connections to a larger religious community of some kind.

(I'm currently in the "Would have had to jump through some hoops in Minnesota, but could have if I'd wanted (have all the requirements for the relevant groups in law), but never bothered, Maine is a little less complicated, but I haven't done it there, either.)
Seek Knowledge, Find Wisdom: Research help on esoteric and eclectic topics (consulting and other services)

Seeking: first steps on a Pagan path (advice for seekers and people new to Paganism)

Annie Roonie

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 915
  • Total likes: 1
    • View Profile
Re: Can priests/priestesses conduct legal marriages?
« Reply #4 on: March 12, 2012, 01:34:29 am »
Quote from: MarieBay;45570
Do pagan priests/priestesses have the legal authority to marry people?

The question just popped into my head. I'm sure the answer depends on what tradition you're looking at...


There are a few places to get ordained online with a nonspecific religion but states have their own licensing. In Ohio, all it takes is sending in a copy of the credentials ( you have to pay for those usually) from the church and the application form and the fee (10-15$).

A colleague has done this so that she can perform non-traditional marriages legally. She is not Wiccan but she and anyone else could be.  

Knowing it is so easy here, I think people are more concerned with having the ceremony done correctly as per their religions and by people who are actually recognized as able to perform the rites. And that is far more complicated than simply legally marrying people.

Rhyshadow

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Feb 2012
  • Posts: 717
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Can priests/priestesses conduct legal marriages?
« Reply #5 on: March 12, 2012, 03:40:31 am »
Quote from: MarieBay;45570
Do pagan priests/priestesses have the legal authority to marry people?

The question just popped into my head. I'm sure the answer depends on what tradition you're looking at...


I'm not quite sure how it works your side of the border, but down here, as Jenett has said, it depends on the state laws.  And while MN does require a few things, it's not all that hard - or at least it wasn't 11 years ago when I got my ministerial license here.

Best thing to do is check Canadian National Law and the specific laws in your Province - there should be sections on how to obtain a ministerial license/certificate - and with that in hand, you now have the legal right to sign marriage licenses, visit people in prison, officiate at funerals, etc

sailor

  • Grand Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 1505
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Can priests/priestesses conduct legal marriages?
« Reply #6 on: March 12, 2012, 07:10:30 am »
Quote from: mlr52;45576
Here is a link to become a ordained minister for free.  (there are other sites some charge).

http://www.themonastery.org/

Once you become a pastor, minister, rabbi or priest, you can proceed to perform baptisms, administer traditional weddings and even start your own ministry. ULC can support you with an array of online church services including ministerial training, spiritual books and guides, and many other resources.

Become a minister today, it is always free of charge. You do not have to purchase anything from ULC to be an online ordained minister. All that we ask is for you to promote freedom of and from religion and to "do that which is right." It is up to each individual to determine what is right as long as it does not infringe upon the rights of others and is within the law.

 
Many US states don't recognize ULC ordinations per se as valid due to the set up of the ULC.  You have to have an actual congregation that grants ordination in most states, if you have the congregation you don't need the ULC; and without the congregation, the ULC ordination isn't accepted.

Virginia I believe requires a congregation consist of at least 3 people, one of which can be the clergy person.

RandallS

  • Site Admin
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Location: NE Ohio
  • Posts: 10177
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 254
    • View Profile
  • Religion: Hellenic Pagan
Re: Can priests/priestesses conduct legal marriages?
« Reply #7 on: March 12, 2012, 08:13:31 am »
Quote from: MarieBay;45570
The question just popped into my head. I'm sure the answer depends on what tradition you're looking at...

As others have said, requirements to sign the marriage license as the person doing the ceremony vary greatly from state to state in the US as marriage is a power of state government. That said, the state can't stop a religious marriage ceremony, only decide whether or not it has legal standing as created a marriage civilly.  Also, if the religion has requirements for who can perform marriages, those would need to be met in addition to the state requirements for the marriage to be valid both civilly and religiously.
Randall
RetroRoleplaying [Blog]: Microlite74/75/78/81, BX Advanced, and Other Old School Tabletop RPGs
Microlite20: Lots of Rules Lite Tabletop RPGs -- Many Free
OSR.SPACE: Old School Tabletop RPG Community

SunflowerP

  • Host
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Location: Calgary AB
  • Posts: 8308
  • Country: ca
  • Total likes: 266
  • Don't teach your grandmother to suck eggs!
    • View Profile
    • If You Ain't Makin' Waves, You Ain't Kickin' Hard Enough
  • Religion: Eclectic religious Witchcraft
  • Preferred Pronouns: sie/hir/hirs/hirself
Re: Can priests/priestesses conduct legal marriages?
« Reply #8 on: March 12, 2012, 07:17:57 pm »
Quote from: Rhyshadow;45581
I'm not quite sure how it works your side of the border, but down here, as Jenett has said, it depends on the state laws.  And while MN does require a few things, it's not all that hard - or at least it wasn't 11 years ago when I got my ministerial license here.

Best thing to do is check Canadian National Law and the specific laws in your Province - there should be sections on how to obtain a ministerial license/certificate - and with that in hand, you now have the legal right to sign marriage licenses, visit people in prison, officiate at funerals, etc

 
About the same in Canada as in the States - marriage is in provincial jurisdiction, and gaining the legal authority to perform one doesn't have much to do with religion.

Other functions vary (and I believe this is also the case on both sides of the border) - officiating at funerals is not a legal function at all, and only a religious one insofar as the religion has specific requirements about it; if the latter doesn't apply, anyone can do it (being in the business of doing it is a whole 'nother thing).  I think the reason people conflate it with marriage is because civilly-recognized marriage involves a marriage certificate, which must be signed by the officiant who must be legally authorized to do so, and the legal ramifications of death involve a death certificate - but (and here I'm getting into Alberta-specific stuff) that's a document issued by the province based on the registration of death, the form for which is completed by "the spouse, next of kin, or person who has full knowledge of the facts surrounding the person who has passed away".  It no more requires an accredited officiant to sign it, than a registration of birth does.

I don't know a great deal about prison visitation, but I'd guess that visitation at the request of one particular inmate would not necessarily require ministerial certification (but would likely involve the inmate's lawyer putting in a formal request, the approval of which would depend on certain conditions/requirements being met - ministerial certification, if available in that jurisdiction, might well be one way to meet them).  Going beyond "by request" and "one particular inmate" gets into chaplaincy accreditation - if what I see in pagan news items on the subject is anything to go by, either this is different than ministerial credentials, or else there are many jurisdictions in which ministerial credentials are more difficult than what you encountered.

Sunflower
I'm the AntiFa genderqueer commie eclectic wiccan Mod your alt-right bros warned you about.
I do so have a life; I just live part of it online!
“Selfishness is not living as one wishes to live, it is asking others to live as one wishes to live.” - Oscar Wilde
"Nobody's good at anything until they practice." - Brina (Yewberry)
My much-neglected blog "If You Ain't Makin' Waves, You Ain't Kickin' Hard Enough"

MarieBay

  • Journeyman
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 106
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Can priests/priestesses conduct legal marriages?
« Reply #9 on: March 15, 2012, 06:55:03 pm »
Quote from: SunflowerP;45663

Other functions vary (and I believe this is also the case on both sides of the border) - officiating at funerals is not a legal function at all, and only a religious one insofar as the religion has specific requirements about it; if the latter doesn't apply, anyone can do it (being in the business of doing it is a whole 'nother thing).  I think the reason people conflate it with marriage is because civilly-recognized marriage involves a marriage certificate, which must be signed by the officiant who must be legally authorized to do so, and the legal ramifications of death involve a death certificate - but (and here I'm getting into Alberta-specific stuff) that's a document issued by the province based on the registration of death, the form for which is completed by "the spouse, next of kin, or person who has full knowledge of the facts surrounding the person who has passed away".  It no more requires an accredited officiant to sign it, than a registration of birth does.

I don't know a great deal about prison visitation, but I'd guess that visitation at the request of one particular inmate would not necessarily require ministerial certification (but would likely involve the inmate's lawyer putting in a formal request, the approval of which would depend on certain conditions/requirements being met - ministerial certification, if available in that jurisdiction, might well be one way to meet them).  Going beyond "by request" and "one particular inmate" gets into chaplaincy accreditation - if what I see in pagan news items on the subject is anything to go by, either this is different than ministerial credentials, or else there are many jurisdictions in which ministerial credentials are more difficult than what you encountered.

Sunflower

 
Neat-o! I hadn't even thought of adding officiating funerals, births, or chaplaincy to the list of functions a person might perform in addition to conducting marriage ceremonies, Sunflower. Makes sense though.

sailor

  • Grand Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 1505
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Can priests/priestesses conduct legal marriages?
« Reply #10 on: March 15, 2012, 09:25:25 pm »
Quote from: MarieBay;45982
Neat-o! I hadn't even thought of adding officiating funerals, births, or chaplaincy to the list of functions a person might perform in addition to conducting marriage ceremonies, Sunflower. Makes sense though.

 
Lets see.

Add visiting the sick.  Teaching religious ed.  Advocating for political change. Getting killed. Getting drunk. Acting as judge.

Lots of things that clergy do as clergy.

Dezdura

  • Sr. Newbie
  • **
  • Join Date: Mar 2012
  • Posts: 18
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Can priests/priestesses conduct legal marriages?
« Reply #11 on: March 17, 2012, 05:05:51 pm »
Quote from: MarieBay;45570
Do pagan priests/priestesses have the legal authority to marry people?

The question just popped into my head. I'm sure the answer depends on what tradition you're looking at...


People are Legally married when they go to a courthouse, and file for a marriage license. Churches and Religious marriage is whatever you want, or not at all. It is totally unnecessary to have a religious marriage. The people involved usually want a religious ceremony, because marriage is a major life-passage, but really, all the bells and whistles are not needed.

stephyjh

  • Grand Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 1597
  • Total likes: 2
    • View Profile
Can priests/priestesses conduct legal marriages?
« Reply #12 on: March 17, 2012, 05:32:26 pm »
Quote from: Dezdura;46201
People are Legally married when they go to a courthouse, and file for a marriage license. Churches and Religious marriage is whatever you want, or not at all. It is totally unnecessary to have a religious marriage. The people involved usually want a religious ceremony, because marriage is a major life-passage, but really, all the bells and whistles are not needed.

Not in all areas. In my state, the signature of an officiant, whether religious or civil, is legally required.
A heretic blast has been blown in the west,
That what is no sense must be nonsense.

-Robert Burns

Rhyshadow

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Feb 2012
  • Posts: 717
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Can priests/priestesses conduct legal marriages?
« Reply #13 on: March 17, 2012, 06:40:53 pm »
Quote from: stephyjh;46204
Not in all areas. In my state, the signature of an officiant, whether religious or civil, is legally required.

 
Same in Minnesota - the minister has to sign the document in order for it to be complete - I know - I was told the requirement when I got my license and I've signed a few

sailor

  • Grand Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 1505
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Can priests/priestesses conduct legal marriages?
« Reply #14 on: March 17, 2012, 11:21:18 pm »
Quote from: Dezdura;46201
People are Legally married when they go to a courthouse, and file for a marriage license. Churches and Religious marriage is whatever you want, or not at all. It is totally unnecessary to have a religious marriage. The people involved usually want a religious ceremony, because marriage is a major life-passage, but really, all the bells and whistles are not needed.

 
Can you provide a citation for this claim?  I've looked at marriage laws for a lot of the states and none of them work that way.

If your assertion was the case, there would be no legally binding marriages performed by clergy.

Tags:
 

Related Topics

  Subject / Started by Replies Last post
0 Replies
424 Views
Last post April 09, 2013, 12:12:48 pm
by blackwolf696
16 Replies
1922 Views
Last post October 15, 2014, 07:34:28 pm
by EclecticWheel
3 Replies
975 Views
Last post June 18, 2015, 05:12:40 pm
by beachglass
3 Replies
949 Views
Last post July 05, 2015, 06:51:12 am
by Altair
6 Replies
498 Views
Last post August 29, 2018, 10:22:32 pm
by Demophon

* Who's Online

  • Dot Guests: 38
  • Dot Hidden: 0
  • Dot Users: 3
  • Dot Users Online:

* Please Donate!

The Cauldron's server is expensive and requires monthly payments. Please become a Bronze, Silver or Gold Donor if you can. Donations are needed every month. Without member support, we can't afford the server.

* In Memoriam

Chavi (2006)
Elspeth (2010)
Marilyn (2013)

* Cauldron Staff

Host:
Sunflower

Message Board Staff
Board Coordinator:
Darkhawk

Assistant Board Coordinator:
Aster Breo

Senior Staff:
Aisling, Jenett, Sefiru

Staff:
Allaya, Chatelaine, EclecticWheel, HarpingHawke, Kylara, PerditaPickle, rocquelaire

Discord Chat Staff
Chat Coordinator:
Morag

Cauldron Council:
Bob, Catja, Emma-Eldritch, Fausta, Jubes, Kelly, LyricFox, Phouka, Sperran, Star, Steve, Tana

Site Administrator:
Randall