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Author Topic: Are You a God-Slave? Will You Be?  (Read 33335 times)

SatSekhem

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Are You a God-Slave? Will You Be?
« on: August 30, 2011, 12:56:23 pm »
In the book that I've been reading, I've stumbled upon the phrase "god-slave" which both intrigued me and worried me and disgusted me and terrified me. From what I have gathered, the terminology is similar to that of having a patron deity, however, instead of merely having this divine parent, so to speak, loving you and offering you encouragement from afar, you have literally dedicated your every waking second to the patron that has chosen you.

Let me reiterate:

You have completely dedicated your entire life to this god/dess that has chosen you.

At least... I think. I think that's the reasoning behind that terminology.

The reason I stumbled upon all of this confusing morass was because of Galina Krasskova, free range tribalist heathen and the article written on patheos that I've linked here. Specifically, she says:

Quote

Spiritual commitment is a very complex thing. I think that many of us come to Paganism and Heathenry not realizing that the Gods are quite real, and that once we enter into the process of devotion, They can sometimes ask for a very daunting level of commitment. I've noticed that for some folks, the Gods are a nice idea but it's a totally different matter when one encounters what scholar of religion Rudolf Otto called the "numinous tremendens et fascinans." We're conditioned in many ways to assume that spirituality should make us feel good, should not inconvenience us, should be about what we want to do, not what might be necessary. Too many times we think that we can control the process.

By consciously using the word "slave" (as Odin directed me to) it brings home the point that sometimes we don't get to do that. It's a troublesome term, but it implies a level of binding commitment more accurately than anything else I have come up with. Part of the problem that people have with the term stems from the terrible abuses inflicted by one group of people on another throughout history, but part of it comes from disrespect for service. I have seen the term "godservant" evoke almost as heated a response.

As to value and honor -- it is an honor to serve the Gods in whatever capacity They determine to be right and proper. There is immense value in knowing and accepting one's place, which in turn allows a person to truly shine. That is not something I think that we should be setting limits on. I think it's for the Gods to define the terms of the relationship and the terms of one's service. I am many things in my relationship to Odin and one of those things is His godatheow, perhaps the core note of my service. It is a very beautiful thing and terrifying and I wouldn't change it for the world, save to learn how to do it better.


I was just wondering... how do you guys feel about all of this?

Personally, I can see my relationship with Sekhmet heading in this direction. So far, she's been the distant parent coaxing me to live my life appropriately. So far, she's been there to pick me up when I'm down and to yell at me when I'm wrong and to give me encouragement when I need it most. That's where she is now: she's teaching me and letting me come to conclusions on my own and I think, at some point, she would enjoy having me become a god-slave.

Honestly, I don't think I'm at all ready for that level of commitment. All joking about commitment phobias aside, it's a really big step. It's ten times more serious, to me, than marrying the significant other that you love. It's thirty times more important than anything else that I could do on this plane of existence. To me, it's important, but I just... I can't even imagine giving of myself so completely to my Hubby. How can I get that way with Sekhmet?

If that is the direction that I am heading, and something inside of me is saying yes very clearly, then I think I have a long way to go before I get there. I'm excited at having something so clearly to look forward to but I'm also... leery. It's... so much. Just. So much.
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Stardancer

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Re: Are You a God-Slave? Will You Be?
« Reply #1 on: August 30, 2011, 02:12:07 pm »
Quote from: SatSekhem;16631
In the book that I've been reading, I've stumbled upon the phrase "god-slave" which both intrigued me and worried me and disgusted me and terrified me. From what I have gathered, the terminology is similar to that of having a patron deity, however, instead of merely having this divine parent, so to speak, loving you and offering you encouragement from afar, you have literally dedicated your every waking second to the patron that has chosen you.


I was just wondering... how do you guys feel about all of this?

.


I feel.. all kudos to those who walk that path, really. I'm certainly occasionally moving in that direction with Gaia - not by dedicating my life to Her, but by learning to Exist. As She is (personal interpretation and UPG alert!) the Goddess of Physical Manifestation, the Universe Being, she started to teach me that I have value. My value moved from 0 to 1. Then she worked on getting that into my head for a decade or so. (Slow learner here...). Now she is working on teaching me that I have a physical presence, that as Hers, I also Am. That what I do matters - even on the most miniature scale, like any other of her creatures. The very least of Her beings live, Exist, die. And they are important, of value 1 (geek here), as long as they are. I have a body - no, I AM a body. Feeling my skin, the air moving to acomodate me, my voice haveing a presence and being noticed. Never needing to 'escape' this world.

Once I am capable of Being that fully and at all times - well, then I guess I embody Her principles as best I as a human can. And I suppose that is another definition of being Her servant or slave.

But I'm really not there yet... :)
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celestialwolf

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Re: Are You a God-Slave? Will You Be?
« Reply #2 on: August 30, 2011, 02:28:51 pm »
Quote from: SatSekhem;16631
In the book that I've been reading, I've stumbled upon the phrase "god-slave" which both intrigued me and worried me and disgusted me and terrified me.

 
I would equate that to being a monk or nun. I feel that is different than serving the Gods. I would say that I serve the Gods but I am not their servant or slave. My path is my own choice, just as my actions are. I serve out of respect, honor and love. While my path is full-time, it doesn't have to take the whole of me unless I choose so. Like Stardancer said, kudos to those who can but that isn't the path I'll be walking.

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Re: Are You a God-Slave? Will You Be?
« Reply #3 on: August 30, 2011, 02:54:07 pm »
Quote from: SatSekhem;16631
In the book that I've been reading, I've stumbled upon the phrase "god-slave" which both intrigued me and worried me and disgusted me and terrified me. From what I have gathered, the terminology is similar to that of having a patron deity, however, instead of merely having this divine parent, so to speak, loving you and offering you encouragement from afar, you have literally dedicated your every waking second to the patron that has chosen you.



I'm not sure.  I'm dedicated to Aset now as Her Shemsu--to honor Her before others.  But that's a different commitment than a Hemet Netjer.  Hemet can mean servant, wife or slave in ancient Egyptian.  

Some people need the word "godslave" and others need "godservant" to nuance their particular relationship with a deity.  I think it may have something to do with BDSM and having that kind of a relationship with a deity.  (Someone please correct me if I'm wrong here).
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Re: Are You a God-Slave? Will You Be?
« Reply #4 on: August 30, 2011, 02:56:40 pm »
Quote from: SatSekhem;16631


I was just wondering... how do you guys feel about all of this?

 
I wish I had read this first before responding earlier lol.

I have mixed feelings about it. I think it's cool, but it's not something you take lightly. Some days, I feel like I'm being moved in that direction. I pretty much do whatever Set says anyways, and if he tells me to go here, or do that, or look into X, Y, or Z- I do it. I don't know that he has 110% control of what I do, or who I am, etc. But he certainly does play a heavy heavy role in my life, and how I live it.

I really have a hard time determining whether I fall into that category or not- for me, it's like defining priesthood and all of that. It's really hard for me to see or say if I would be one, or not. But the idea is interesting to me. And in some ways it appeals to me, and in other ways, it doesn't.

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Lokabrenna

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Re: Are You a God-Slave? Will You Be?
« Reply #5 on: August 30, 2011, 03:00:56 pm »
Quote from: SatSekhem;16631

I was just wondering... how do you guys feel about all of this?


Good gods! You mentioned the Author Who Shall Not Be Named (on the Asatru and Heathenry SIG, at least). Suffice it to say that she is VERY controversial (not just because of this, though it is one reason) within the community.

That said, Hrafn has an interesting article on the term "godatheow" vs. "godaþegn" or "god-servant" (þegn means something like "a noble servant of a higher noble") which might be of interest: http://hrafnspeil.blogspot.com/2009/05/godaegn-and-godatheow.html

There's also this post by Nicanthiel Hrafnhild (who coined the term "godaþegn") which is referenced in the article above: http://hrafnhild.wordpress.com/2009/04/01/goda%C3%BEegn/

Okay, now that I'm done dumping reading material on this controversial topic, I should chime in with my own opinion. I guess, in a nutshell, that certain gods might want that sort of relationship, but I can't see Freyr ever wanting it. (In fact, he is known as the god who "frees all fetters", so it would follow that he wouldn't be very enthused about the idea.) For myself, the idea that any deity would force me into such a relationship without my consent is absolutely abhorrent, but that's me. Other people relate to the gods in different ways.

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Re: Are You a God-Slave? Will You Be?
« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2011, 03:23:01 pm »
Quote from: SatSekhem;16631
In the book that I've been reading, I've stumbled upon the phrase "god-slave" which both intrigued me and worried me and disgusted me and terrified me.

 
I am certainly not willing to discuss this in a thread that starts with someone being disgusted by my life.
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Re: Are You a God-Slave? Will You Be?
« Reply #7 on: August 30, 2011, 04:03:52 pm »
Quote
By consciously using the word "slave" (as Odin directed me to) it brings home the point that sometimes we don't get to do that. It's a troublesome term, but it implies a level of binding commitment more accurately than anything else I have come up with. Part of the problem that people have with the term stems from the terrible abuses inflicted by one group of people on another throughout history, but part of it comes from disrespect for service. I have seen the term "godservant" evoke almost as heated a response.



I am curious to know how comfortable, or how often, African-Americans feel about calling themselves slaves, religiously or otherwise. I can't imagine it's a huge part of their worship or something that they find sacred, but I don't know.  

I do think that slave meant somthing historically different to our ancestors, and was more along the lines of a landlord/tenant relationship. The slave was provided a house and land, and a percentage of what he earned went to his master. Any insult to the master would result in death, but they were also given the oppurtunity for freedom. Though a slave often times followed a master into death as well (moreso the females).

So now I'm curious if Odin means 'slave' in the way that we think of 'slave'.

Eh, probably doesn't matter.
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Re: Are You a God-Slave? Will You Be?
« Reply #8 on: August 30, 2011, 05:33:10 pm »
Quote from: SatSekhem;16631
In the book that I've been reading, I've stumbled upon the phrase "god-slave" which both intrigued me and worried me and disgusted me and terrified me. From what I have gathered, the terminology is similar to that of having a patron deity, however, instead of merely having this divine parent, so to speak, loving you and offering you encouragement from afar, you have literally dedicated your every waking second to the patron that has chosen you.

 
I want to start by echoing what Darkhawk said: the framing of this conversation doesn't make me feel very inclined to share the details either.

However, I have a - deity installed, in part - "sharing information is a good thing" button and so you get it anyway.

I identify myself as M'Lady's handmaiden. Slave is not a particularly useful cultural term. (She's English. Very firmly Not Celtic, as she is wont to point out, but I'm still in the stages of tracking down whether that means English, or originally Saxon or Angle, or what - mostly, I'm at the stage where I need to go to England and wander around a bunch of places to make more progress, and that's obviously budget-dependent.)

Anyway, the equation for her is that I am very much Hers, my hands do Her work, and more to the point, my brain does Her work. However, it's more like being the administrative assistant to a very capable executive: I have a great deal of discretion in *how* that work gets done, and she rarely cares a lot about my method. (Ok, that's also helped by the fact that she's been pretty clear that technology is Not Her Thing, so I think a lot of the mechanism is sort of opaque to her, too.)

A lot of my work for her is very tied into my professional life: the primary directive I have from her is "reach out to those who thirst", with a very knowledge-focused twist on 'thirst'. It's not just about water, or even about information: it's about giving people tools to recognise and support their own thirsts. If I have more than a day or two in a row in which I don't help someone find information that matters to them, that makes their life better, that's a failure. (Fortunately, I *like* doing that, but it means going out and finding places, when they don't appear in my day organically. All hail the Internet for helping with that.)

This relationship has some benefits: I am pretty sure she had a hand in the fact that my going back and finishing my grad degree (after a 5 year absence) went *far* more smoothly than it had any right to. And while being out of work for a year was really hard - and the more so because my identity is so tied into my profession as a librarian - that I came out of that with what has turned out to be an awesome new job, with awesome people, in a *much* healthier work environment, and one where I can continue to grow and learn for years to come.

But doing her work is also why I have this 120+ page website with Seeker-friendly info. It's why I know that teaching in person is going to be back on the radar sooner rather than later, move or no move. It's why when certain people ask, I will drop everything and do what I can to help. And it's why I always have to leave a certain amount of gap in my life for stuff M'Lady wants. She doesn't want specific stuff often, but when she does, it shoots to the top of my to-do list, or takes over all my spare energy for a while. (And it's something I can't logic with: my brain will go all out on whatever the necessary project is, for an extended period of time, until whatever it is is done.)

I do know people in god-spouse or god-slave type relationships where the deity has a very strong opinion about their romantic life: my impression has been that M'Lady is fine with anyone who treats me well, and doesn't try to make me less than I am. (Having tried that once with the ex-husband, I am not interested in repeating the experience, so I'm all for that as a restriction, really.) But I've also been entirely single for going on 6 years, so, y'know, not the simplest thing either.

It is not a relationship I'd suggest anyone necessarily seek out - for one thing, it's not a thing you can make happen. It's something that's got to grow organically from an existing relationship. Likewise, there are things you give up in this kind of relationship. Some people may not mind giving those things up, or think they're a particularly harsh restriction - but they're still there.

And like any other major commitment, it's something you can't step away from, just because you're bored or tired or done now. Likewise, because it's with a deity, their ideas of what is reasonable for you (in terms of timescale, energy, focus, etc.) and your idea may be quite different: it can require some negotiation up front. Be careful what you say yes to, and what precedents you set. Make short term commitments first, to try things out. ("I'm interested: can we try it for a year and re-evaluate at the end?" is a lot better than making a lifetime commitment the first time.)

I was fortunate in a lot of ways that I first built my relationship at a point in my training when I was not allowed to make ongoing deity commitments (it's one of the things that students are protected from until initiation in my tradition: you can negotiate some stuff, do some short-term exploration, but it's basically an extension of the theory of "minors can't sign contracts" so that people can grow up and explore in relative safety without being burdened with long-term results of something they regret later, or would choose to do differently with more experience.) For people who don't have that external limit, going slowly is even more critical - I'd encourage a deep relationship of that kind to have a 3-5 year build time to be done sensibly, before someone makes lifetime long-lasting commitments.
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SatSekhem

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Re: Are You a God-Slave? Will You Be?
« Reply #9 on: August 30, 2011, 06:18:34 pm »
Quote from: Darkhawk;16669
I am certainly not willing to discuss this in a thread that starts with someone being disgusted by my life.

 
I'm sorry you saw this as someone against BDSM or what have you... being disgusted by the practice. In reality, when I read these things, nothing in the "bondage" lifestyle remotely popped up: I'm thinking more along the lines of plantations with whips forcing men and women to work until they drop dead. I don't consider that lifestyle at all because it is none of my business who does what when they're at home, either with a god/dess or with an s.o.
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Re: Are You a God-Slave? Will You Be?
« Reply #10 on: August 30, 2011, 07:21:57 pm »
Quote from: SatSekhem;16631
..I was just wondering... how do you guys feel about all of this?...


I am a devotee to the gods / goddesses I am sworn to and honor.  I live my life as I both see fit and as I am guided to do in their service or following.  Yet the critical facet is that none of the gods / goddesses I am sworn to want a blind subservient and obediant servant.

If anything they want a person who knows them and ask's and seeks.  One who serves them best by growing and testing the limits and boundaires of thier lives.  A slave does a thing out of fear of punishment or the false hope of reward of some sort.  I am no slave, I do what I do out of a sense of commitment to them.  I do not respond out of a place of fear of what they might do nor do I follow from a position of hoping I shall be given some rewards for doing so.

I do not cower before them for they do not inflict punishment upon me.  I do not stand definate before them for they do not give me cause to do that either.  Do they reward me for my dedication and commitment?  In some ways I suppose yes, but in many ways I trully think I am given their blessing at times for when I am better and feel comfort then I am better at doing for them and to a degree of being what it is they desire me to be or do.

But a god-slave?  Not hardly

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Re: Are You a God-Slave? Will You Be?
« Reply #11 on: August 30, 2011, 07:51:42 pm »
Quote from: SatSekhem;16691
I'm sorry you saw this as someone against BDSM or what have you... being disgusted by the practice. In reality, when I read these things, nothing in the "bondage" lifestyle remotely popped up: I'm thinking more along the lines of plantations with whips forcing men and women to work until they drop dead. I don't consider that lifestyle at all because it is none of my business who does what when they're at home, either with a god/dess or with an s.o.

 
Regardless of my additional BDSM interactions with mortal partners, you started out being disgusted by my spiritual life.
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Re: Are You a God-Slave? Will You Be?
« Reply #12 on: August 30, 2011, 08:26:00 pm »
Quote from: Darkhawk;16706
Regardless of my additional BDSM interactions with mortal partners, you started out being disgusted by my spiritual life.

 
After my hazing was over everything has been mutual since then.   The hazing was really the most awesome part.  It was really trippy and intense and most people probably would of went to the hospital but I saw it through.

Since that ceased everything with all bodies has been relatively mutual and without request.  Although there have been some female and even male that have acted in an extremely sexual nature towards me, many females.  

I won't go through names but I will say I haven't participated.  Just a little nerving I guess, I've heard about the succubus and incubus.  Got to be careful. LAWL

No real requests have been made that are to demanding.  Odin requested I spill some blood for the ground to drink, but never held me to it.  Which is something I understand to that nature.  It wasn't alarming but I never committed to it.

Other than that I think am a little more fortunate than most despite my entry into this type of realm and wide council.  It's a gift a blessing and a curse at times because my mind is an open channel.  Can't do shit without it being witnessed.

So don't mock any Gods. Mock no one.  Particularly Odin.

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Re: Are You a God-Slave? Will You Be?
« Reply #13 on: August 30, 2011, 09:43:20 pm »
Quote from: SatSekhem;16631
I was just wondering... how do you guys feel about all of this?
.


I don't see what the big deal is.

If the gods want some one  to give up their free will entirley they probably have their reasons and I can only hope they're good ones.  At times I have had to wonder if it wasn't just for the LOLLZ.

But they really don't seem to expect it of too many people.

Now there are people who don't want to have the responsibility for their own life, there are people who really feel they need to earn their pats on the head and doggee biscuits from their patron, there are people whose sexuality makes it best to relate to them as a dom [Kaldera comes to mind as an example of the last case]  and there are probably more legitimate reasons I could come with if I actually liked the idea more than I seem to.  IOW I guess it's a legit thing, but I don't see most benefitting from going in that direction and that includes me.
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Re: Are You a God-Slave? Will You Be?
« Reply #14 on: August 30, 2011, 10:02:21 pm »
Quote from: SatSekhem;16631

I was just wondering... how do you guys feel about all of this?

 To me, it's important, but I just... I can't even imagine giving of myself so completely to my Hubby. How can I get that way with Sekhmet?



Honestly, I don't worry about it too much. While I agree I couldn't give that much of myself to my husband (no matter how much I truly love him), I DO give myself over to my children that way. What they need, I give, to the best of my ability no matter how taxing, annoying, or tiring it may become. They did not choose to be born, I chose that, so I am responsible for them until they are not children anymore.....and longer if necessary. (My husband chose to have to put up with me :)  )  I can see after the kids are grown and gone MAYBE devoting that kind of energy to a deity, but the way I see it I do that already by living my life the way I do. If they want/need more from me, I guess they will just have to wait a few more years.
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