collapse
2020 Donation Drive

It's time for our annual Server Donation Drive! We need to raise at least $710 to keep The Cauldron's server online for another year. Please help! Either hit that Paypal button to the right and make a one-time donation in any amount or set up a monthly Bronze, Silver or Gold Donor subscription. You can find more info in this message!

Donations as of 21 October 2020: $558 donated. Only $152 more needed! Thank you, donors!


Note: This total is updated manually, usually once a day


* Recent Posts

Re: Developing and Nurturing a Positive Mindset by Sefiru
[October 19, 2020, 07:12:35 pm]


Re: Dreaming of Moonlight on Water by entwife
[October 19, 2020, 12:06:02 pm]


Re: Dreaming of Moonlight on Water by PerditaPickle
[October 19, 2020, 07:15:27 am]


Re: Dreaming of Moonlight on Water by ehbowen
[October 18, 2020, 09:50:51 pm]


Dreaming of Moonlight on Water by entwife
[October 18, 2020, 03:14:20 pm]

Author Topic: The God Delusion  (Read 2346 times)

Nymree

  • Journeyman
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jan 2016
  • Posts: 102
  • Country: gb
  • Total likes: 16
    • View Profile
  • Preferred Pronouns: she/her/her
The God Delusion
« on: October 24, 2016, 10:40:10 am »
Book by Richard Dawkins, I haven't read it yet but was wondering if anyone else had and if it is a good read. Thoughts?

Sarah

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Apr 2013
  • Posts: 827
  • Total likes: 3
    • View Profile
Re: The God Delusion
« Reply #1 on: October 24, 2016, 11:15:07 am »
Quote from: Nymree;197914
Book by Richard Dawkins, I haven't read it yet but was wondering if anyone else had and if it is a good read. Thoughts?

 
I hated it in so many ways for so many reasons. He doesn't understand the point of stories, he doesn't understand what religious communities are for or how they work. He doesn't understand that the people best placed to change negatives things about communities are the people within them. The book has no nuance in it at all.

A much better book is Dan Dennett's  "Breaking the Spell: Religion as a Natural Phenomenon" I don't agree with  many of his conclusions but its a much more thoughtful, nuanced, and sensible book
Knowing when to use a shovel is what being a witch is all about. Nanny Ogg, Witches Abroad

Jabberwocky

  • Master Member
  • ******
  • Join Date: Feb 2012
  • Posts: 452
  • Total likes: 25
    • View Profile
Re: The God Delusion
« Reply #2 on: October 24, 2016, 02:07:49 pm »
Quote from: Nymree;197914
Book by Richard Dawkins, I haven't read it yet but was wondering if anyone else had and if it is a good read. Thoughts?

It's a lazy collection of straw men.  Give me Bertrand Russell any day.

Eagleton puts it better than I could.

Quote
Imagine someone holding forth on biology whose only knowledge of the subject is the Book of British Birds, and you have a rough idea of what it feels like to read Richard Dawkins on theology. Card-carrying rationalists like Dawkins, who is the nearest thing to a professional atheist we have had since Bertrand Russell, are in one sense the least well-equipped to understand what they castigate, since they don’t believe there is anything there to be understood, or at least anything worth understanding. This is why they invariably come up with vulgar caricatures of religious faith that would make a first-year theology student wince.

From http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n20/terry-eagleton/lunging-flailing-mispunching
« Last Edit: October 24, 2016, 02:13:45 pm by Jabberwocky »
Your heart is a muscle as big as your fist.

Darkhawk

  • Senior Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 4980
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 883
    • View Profile
    • Suns in her Branches
  • Religion: An American Werewolf in the Akhet; Kemetic; Feri; Imaginary Baltic Heathen; Discordian; CoX; Etc.
  • Preferred Pronouns: any of he, she, they
Re: The God Delusion
« Reply #3 on: October 24, 2016, 05:59:07 pm »
Quote from: Nymree;197914
Book by Richard Dawkins, I haven't read it yet but was wondering if anyone else had and if it is a good read. Thoughts?

 
Pretty much everything I've seen from all of the Big Name Atheists seems to be framed as an argument against a form (some would say a caricature but I would apply Belledame's Law and say for every social-argument strawman there is a walking scarecrow somewhere) of doctrinaire Christianity, which means it has partial applicability to other Abrahamic monotheisms especially in their more doctrinaire forms.  It's pretty popular for a reason - doctrinaire Christianity and other such things has left a lot of people wounded in various ways - but as an agnostic polytheist, I basically am left with, "... and?" about all the major points I've seen argued or quoted.

It hasn't really gotten me to want to look deeper, because the public-facing arguments are so irrelevant.
as the water grinds the stone
we rise and fall
as our ashes turn to dust
we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

EclecticWheel

  • Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Jul 2013
  • Location: Texas
  • Posts: 738
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 190
    • View Profile
  • Religion: Christo-Eclectic
  • Preferred Pronouns: he/him/his
Re: The God Delusion
« Reply #4 on: October 25, 2016, 12:34:31 am »
Quote from: Darkhawk;197948
Pretty much everything I've seen from all of the Big Name Atheists seems to be framed as an argument against a form (some would say a caricature but I would apply Belledame's Law and say for every social-argument strawman there is a walking scarecrow somewhere) of doctrinaire Christianity, which means it has partial applicability to other Abrahamic monotheisms especially in their more doctrinaire forms.  It's pretty popular for a reason - doctrinaire Christianity and other such things has left a lot of people wounded in various ways - but as an agnostic polytheist, I basically am left with, "... and?" about all the major points I've seen argued or quoted.
It hasn't really gotten me to want to look deeper, because the public-facing arguments are so irrelevant.

 
I read it once around 5 or 6 years ago.  From what I remember some arguments are interesting, but he is not all that great at arguing them, and his arguments apply only to some forms of monotheistic belief.


And there is enough nuance in most Christian theologies to have some wiggle room in dealing with much of his criticisms which are not so much about atheism, but religion itself.


He conflates the topics.  And then the book is pretty much irrelevant to less doctrinal forms of Christianity, especially those strains of theology and practice that are non-theistic and take a non-literal approach to God and other matters.


A much better book is Atheism Explained, by David Ramsay Steele.  Mostly it deals with monotheistic belief, but polytheism is addressed to some degree.  The author does not believe that religion is the root of all evil, nor is he interested in converting others to atheism.


The book was written simply because he finds the speculation itself enjoyable, and if others wish to read it and are convinced and find any improvement in their lives, great.  If they are not convinced he is not too concerned as he does not believe religion makes people do wicked things.


It really is a much more friendly, enjoyable book, and I think someone with a philosophical background is much more apt to tackling this topic than a scientist who has no such background.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2016, 12:36:13 am by EclecticWheel »
My personal moral code:

Love wisely, and do what thou wilt.

Sorcha

  • Master Member
  • ******
  • Join Date: Jun 2016
  • Posts: 387
  • Total likes: 36
    • View Profile
Re: The God Delusion
« Reply #5 on: January 15, 2017, 05:04:17 pm »
Quote from: Darkhawk;197948
Pretty much everything I've seen from all of the Big Name Atheists seems to be framed as an argument against a form (some would say a caricature but I would apply Belledame's Law and say for every social-argument strawman there is a walking scarecrow somewhere) of doctrinaire Christianity, which means it has partial applicability to other Abrahamic monotheisms especially in their more doctrinaire forms.  It's pretty popular for a reason - doctrinaire Christianity and other such things has left a lot of people wounded in various ways - but as an agnostic polytheist, I basically am left with, "... and?" about all the major points I've seen argued or quoted.

It hasn't really gotten me to want to look deeper, because the public-facing arguments are so irrelevant.

 
I still consider myself "Christian with a lot of wiggle room" and I rarely find an atheist argument compelling because usually they only work if addressing a specific religion. Otherwise, it's kind of like, "Well, congrats; conservative Baptists are now defeated. Have you tackled the Episcopalians yet? Good luck."

One thing I've let go of in life is a need to "prove" my beliefs. I've never found that you can argue somebody into belief. You can present the issue as you see it, and if they don't find that compelling, you're done.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Tags:
 

Related Topics

  Subject / Started by Replies Last post
13 Replies
3246 Views
Last post April 16, 2013, 07:24:16 pm
by Annie Roonie
5 Replies
1314 Views
Last post October 16, 2012, 10:05:11 am
by Raven Rose
39 Replies
6920 Views
Last post June 01, 2014, 02:59:27 pm
by Rhaethe
1 Replies
652 Views
Last post June 26, 2014, 08:22:43 pm
by Scales
5 Replies
671 Views
Last post August 20, 2020, 04:42:57 pm
by Aveya

Beginner Area

Warning: You are currently in a Beginner Friendly area of the message board.

* Who's Online

  • Dot Guests: 61
  • Dot Hidden: 0
  • Dot Users: 1
  • Dot Users Online:

* Please Donate!

The Cauldron's server is expensive and requires monthly payments. Please become a Bronze, Silver or Gold Donor if you can. Donations are needed every month. Without member support, we can't afford the server.

* Shop & Support TC

The links below are affiliate links. When you click on one of these links you will go to the listed shopping site with The Cauldron's affiliate code. Any purchases you make during your visit will earn TC a tiny percentage of your purchase price at no extra cost to you.

* In Memoriam

Chavi (2006)
Elspeth (2010)
Marilyn (2013)

* Cauldron Staff

Host:
Sunflower

Message Board Staff
Board Coordinator:
Darkhawk

Assistant Board Coordinator:
Aster Breo

Senior Staff:
Aisling, Jenett, Sefiru

Staff:
Allaya, Chatelaine, EclecticWheel, HarpingHawke, Kylara, PerditaPickle, rocquelaire

Discord Chat Staff
Chat Coordinator:
Morag

Cauldron Council:
Bob, Catja, Emma-Eldritch, Fausta, Jubes, Kelly, LyricFox, Phouka, Sperran, Star, Steve, Tana

Site Administrator:
Randall

SimplePortal 2.3.6 © 2008-2014, SimplePortal