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Author Topic: Edain McCoy: Good, bad, or indifferent? And where else should I be looking?  (Read 5505 times)

Allec

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Re: Edain McCoy: Good, bad, or indifferent? And where else should I be looking?
« Reply #30 on: December 15, 2013, 09:51:58 am »
Quote from: Lionrhod;132024
I read the same letter you linked to, but not the one with all the citations. By the time of my last post I was getting sick and tired of the subject. This time I went back and read the letter with the author's replies.

When from line one the author starts whining about a missing accent on their name, I know that I'm going to spend the rest of my letter rolling my eyes. Guess what? I don't have that kind of accent on my keyboard. I know there's a function somewhere in windows but I'm not going to go searching for it. So if this person wrote me an email they would most likely get an unaccented Hi so-and-so back too.

As said, I have not read Witta so I can't verify for myself this person's claim that McCoy is racist etc. I do agree that the claim that the USA is responsible for religions in South America was pretty funny. Racist, however is a strong word.

As for ancient Irish potato goddesses, that's pretty darn funny, and should probably serve as a warning to anyone that reads McCoys' book that something is a bit fishy. I suppose next someone will be writing about ancient Italian tomato goddesses.

However what I don't see on this site is any proof that the existence of this book in any way harms the author of the site.

Nor (as I would expect from all the nonsense of the letters) do I even see the author doing something which might actually be useful, which would be to point out the specifics of what is wrong with the book so that future potential readers of the book would be warned. Other than the potato goddess and the claim that this is an Irish tradition as taught her by her teachers, I am given no idea why this book is allegedly evil.

And no, I'm not going to go out and find a copy to read for myself. I have better things to spend my money on than a book which is obviously (at least in part) junk.

However, historical inaccuracies aside, I don't know that the entire book is junk, and it's even possible that some parts of it have helped some people.

It also appears that there was an earlier exchange of emails which was not printed on this site? Or is this person saying that other's have corrected him/her? That part is confusing. If there were earlier letters the author should probably have provided them. If not, it would certainly help to know what on earth the author is talking about.

(Can't seem to get it to copy/paste but I'm talking about the 3rd paragraph starting with "I have been corrected.")

Anyway, having read the letter, I still don't understand why the author thinks he/she is owed an apology.

Further, the author has made the mistake of attacking a person not the work in question. Thereby putting me in sympathy with McCoy no matter what I think of her work.

 
First, let me quote Asch to reiterate while you're wrong about the racism:

Quote from: Asch;131091
That shit about the potato goddess is her being racist, period. It is in no way or shape true and equating potatoes with Irish people is not rooted in nice things to say the least. She's a disgrace and an object lesson in how not to do All The Things.

 
Second, McCoy wrote a book that presented itself as the religion of Ireland when in fact it has nothing to do with Ireland other than caching in on the racist and simplistic connotations people have towards Celtic spirituality. The Irish Potato Goddess is just the most well-known example of how she obviously didn't research. When the author of the letters tells her that, she replies that Americans can do whatever they want in the name of freedom.

It's hard for many Americans to understand what it means to have a culture taken since there isn't "much" of what one would consider a culture in the states. However, that doesn't mean that people who do have a cultural identity do not suffer when their culture is distorted, erased, or exploited.

As for some nitty-gritty: McCoy or yourself could easily copy his name into the email. That takes all of one extra second to do instead of mistyping someone's name. As for if Éamonn wrote an email prior, it seems like he could have easily have tried to discuss the book with other people.

Lastly, "Racism" is a strong word that isn't used enough. Too many things go on from the States and other places that are racist, but people are more concerned with using that word than the problematic actions. Therefore, yes. The book she wrote is racist. Don't get mad at that word usage, get mad that she was able to publish something so offensive and degrading to the Irish culture.
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stephyjh

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Edain McCoy: Good, bad, or indifferent? And where else should I be looking?
« Reply #31 on: December 15, 2013, 11:51:43 am »
Quote from: Allec;132609
First, let me quote Asch to reiterate while you're wrong about the racism:


 
Second, McCoy wrote a book that presented itself as the religion of Ireland when in fact it has nothing to do with Ireland other than caching in on the racist and simplistic connotations people have towards Celtic spirituality. The Irish Potato Goddess is just the most well-known example of how she obviously didn't research. When the author of the letters tells her that, she replies that Americans can do whatever they want in the name of freedom.

It's hard for many Americans to understand what it means to have a culture taken since there isn't "much" of what one would consider a culture in the states. However, that doesn't mean that people who do have a cultural identity do not suffer when their culture is distorted, erased, or exploited.

As for some nitty-gritty: McCoy or yourself could easily copy his name into the email. That takes all of one extra second to do instead of mistyping someone's name. As for if Éamonn wrote an email prior, it seems like he could have easily have tried to discuss the book with other people.

Lastly, "Racism" is a strong word that isn't used enough. Too many things go on from the States and other places that are racist, but people are more concerned with using that word than the problematic actions. Therefore, yes. The book she wrote is racist. Don't get mad at that word usage, get mad that she was able to publish something so offensive and degrading to the Irish culture.

Your statements are not factually accurate. To say that the US does not have much of a culture, when US culture is spreading and choking out others throughout the world at an alarming rate, is simply false. If not cultural markers, then what exactly would you call Thanksgiving turkey, rock music, the Super Bowl, Black Friday shopping, the spread of American slang to English-speaking groups worldwide, etc? The only way to think that the US doesn't have much of a culture is to assume that this is the default, from which "culture" means any deviation, which is the same cultural privilege (note: cultural, not racial, which by definition means not racist) of which you're accusing McCoy. I'm not saying her claims are valid. I'm saying that yours aren't either.
A heretic blast has been blown in the west,
That what is no sense must be nonsense.

-Robert Burns

Nyktipolos

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Re: Edain McCoy: Good, bad, or indifferent? And where else should I be looking?
« Reply #32 on: December 15, 2013, 03:27:37 pm »
Quote from: Allec;132609
The Irish Potato Goddess is just the most well-known example of how she obviously didn't research.

 
I know it's a common meme with McCoy's work, and just because I'm pointing this out does not negate the other problematic aspects of her work, but as far as I can tell McCoy never actually wrote about an "ancient Irish Potato Goddess". She does mention that the potato is a symbol of "the goddess" because it's an underground vegetable, which is definitely problematic in the sense that she ignores that the potato is a North American native food and was transplanted over (although people can connect any sort of fruit or vegetable to an ancient god, but McCoy is writing her book in the context of all this stuff being actual, ancient Irish religion).

If anyone can find a source for her having wrote this in her book(s), I'd greatly appreciate it. But when I went searching using electronic copies, I could never find her using that phrasing at all, just the above example.
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Merin

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Re: Edain McCoy: Good, bad, or indifferent? And where else should I be looking?
« Reply #33 on: December 15, 2013, 11:04:09 pm »
Quote from: Darkhawk;132028
I would suspect that the overwhelming majority of people on this forum don't celebrate "the 8 holidays", since they're not actually a part of our religions.  We have our own, don't need those.


Of course.  I understand that not everyone follows the Wheel.  I was merely addressing the OP and falling prey to one of my classic blunders: assumption. :)

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Re: Edain McCoy: Good, bad, or indifferent? And where else should I be looking?
« Reply #34 on: December 16, 2013, 04:30:32 am »
Quote from: Merin;132640
Of course.  I understand that not everyone follows the Wheel.  I was merely addressing the OP and falling prey to one of my classic blunders: assumption. :)

 
Well, hey, at least you didn't start a land war in Central Asia. :)

Allec

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Re: Edain McCoy: Good, bad, or indifferent? And where else should I be looking?
« Reply #35 on: December 17, 2013, 10:05:03 pm »
Quote from: stephyjh;132617
Your statements are not factually accurate. To say that the US does not have much of a culture, when US culture is spreading and choking out others throughout the world at an alarming rate, is simply false. If not cultural markers, then what exactly would you call Thanksgiving turkey, rock music, the Super Bowl, Black Friday shopping, the spread of American slang to English-speaking groups worldwide, etc? The only way to think that the US doesn't have much of a culture is to assume that this is the default, from which "culture" means any deviation, which is the same cultural privilege (note: cultural, not racial, which by definition means not racist) of which you're accusing McCoy. I'm not saying her claims are valid. I'm saying that yours aren't either.

 
I think I misrepresented myself: I don't mean to say that the USA doesn't have a culture, just the the majority of people don't understand it to be so. Especially people who are drawn to paganism, as many hate football, shopping, and other staples of American culture and are seeking out something different.

I don't get this sentence: "The only way to think that the US doesn't have much of a culture is to assume that this is the default, from which "culture" means any deviation, which is the same cultural privilege (note: cultural, not racial, which by definition means not racist) of which you're accusing McCoy." Would you expand upon it?

Nonetheless, I know several people who live in Ireland who find that book a disgrace, racist, and full of falsehoods.
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stephyjh

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Re: Edain McCoy: Good, bad, or indifferent? And where else should I be looking?
« Reply #36 on: December 17, 2013, 11:17:19 pm »
Quote from: Allec;132870
I think I misrepresented myself: I don't mean to say that the USA doesn't have a culture, just the the majority of people don't understand it to be so. Especially people who are drawn to paganism, as many hate football, shopping, and other staples of American culture and are seeking out something different.

I don't get this sentence: "The only way to think that the US doesn't have much of a culture is to assume that this is the default, from which "culture" means any deviation, which is the same cultural privilege (note: cultural, not racial, which by definition means not racist) of which you're accusing McCoy." Would you expand upon it?

Nonetheless, I know several people who live in Ireland who find that book a disgrace, racist, and full of falsehoods.

 
I'm not saying that it's not false. I'm saying that when it's on a cultural, rather than racial, basis, that it is by definition impossible that the book would be racist.

The prevalent failure to recognize US culture means that one is assuming that US culture is just "how everyone is," an assumed standard, rather than recognizing the things that are unique to the US. This is cultural privilege on the part of the person doing the assuming. It comes packaged with the assumption that "culture" means "anything that's not the standard, normal way that I as a member of a privileged culture do things." That's a cultural bias that ranks US culture as above others. That's what McCoy is doing by bastardizing Irish culture in her books and treating it as not important enough to get right.
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Re: Edain McCoy: Good, bad, or indifferent? And where else should I be looking?
« Reply #37 on: December 18, 2013, 05:06:06 am »
Quote from: stephyjh;132878
I'm not saying that it's not false. I'm saying that when it's on a cultural, rather than racial, basis, that it is by definition impossible that the book would be racist.

The prevalent failure to recognize US culture means that one is assuming that US culture is just "how everyone is," an assumed standard, rather than recognizing the things that are unique to the US. This is cultural privilege on the part of the person doing the assuming. It comes packaged with the assumption that "culture" means "anything that's not the standard, normal way that I as a member of a privileged culture do things." That's a cultural bias that ranks US culture as above others. That's what McCoy is doing by bastardizing Irish culture in her books and treating it as not important enough to get right.

 
It is cultural bias, but in my opinion it is also racism.

Racism against Irish people goes way back to the "No Irish" signs in establishments in the UK. I don't know much about the Irish in the US, but in the UK, there's a long history of racism towards people of Irish origin. We are considered an ethnic group here, for exactly that reason - you can answer either "White British" or "White Irish" (or "White Other") on ethnic monitoring forms as a result, because of the history of racism against the Irish. I think it's minimizing that historical experience - which still continues today - to refuse to call racism racism.
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stephyjh

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Edain McCoy: Good, bad, or indifferent? And where else should I be looking?
« Reply #38 on: December 18, 2013, 07:43:53 am »
Quote from: Naomi J;132900
It is cultural bias, but in my opinion it is also racism.

Racism against Irish people goes way back to the "No Irish" signs in establishments in the UK. I don't know much about the Irish in the US, but in the UK, there's a long history of racism towards people of Irish origin. We are considered an ethnic group here, for exactly that reason - you can answer either "White British" or "White Irish" (or "White Other") on ethnic monitoring forms as a result, because of the history of racism against the Irish. I think it's minimizing that historical experience - which still continues today - to refuse to call racism racism.

In the US, where McCoy, Allec, and I are located, however, Irish people are simply considered white and as such part of the racial majority. The lines are not drawn the same way in the place and context where the offense is taking place. The difference from a US perspective would be classified as cultural. I'm not saying it's not ignorant and bigoted. I'm saying that, at least in the context of where it's taking place, it's a *different* axis of oppression.
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Re: Edain McCoy: Good, bad, or indifferent? And where else should I be looking?
« Reply #39 on: December 18, 2013, 08:48:56 am »
Quote from: stephyjh;132906
In the US, where McCoy, Allec, and I are located, however, Irish people are simply considered white and as such part of the racial majority.


Until they open their mouths and speak, at which point they're just too adorably quaint and exoticized for words. Or did you mean nth-generation one-quarter (or whatever) Irish-Americans?

Just because the framework has changed in the US, doesn't mean citizens of Ireland don't experience it as racism.

Quote
I'm saying that, at least in the context of where it's taking place, it's a *different* axis of oppression.

 
Where and when. The USian social construction of 'white enough' hasn't always included the Irish.

The part that has me stymied is your claim a couple posts back, 'I'm saying that when it's on a cultural, rather than racial, basis, that it is by definition impossible that the book would be racist.' Exactly how does the cultural basis preclude racism?

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Re: Edain McCoy: Good, bad, or indifferent? And where else should I be looking?
« Reply #40 on: December 18, 2013, 08:59:29 am »
Quote from: SunflowerP;132915
Just because the framework has changed in the US, doesn't mean citizens of Ireland don't experience it as racism.


Or people of Irish origin in places that are not the US. Irish people have emigrated in many international directions over the years, and their experiences have been varied depending on country. I remember racism towards people of Irish origin here within my lifetime, for various socio-cultural reasons and inflamed by media reaction to things like IRA terrorism. Just because some countries have a good experience of Irish integration in recent years, doesn't mean all countries do. People of Irish origin, and (from what I've heard from friends and family) Irish people in Eire too, are aware of these trends and types of racism. That's part of why dismissive, belittling cultural misappropriation has overtones of racism even if it's not intended as such.

And in the case of Irish culture, not taking it particularly seriously is part of the racism. The content and quality of racism varies depending on context. Hence my ire at the 'potato goddess' thing. (Even though it seems McCoy didn't quite put it like that.)
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Re: Edain McCoy: Good, bad, or indifferent? And where else should I be looking?
« Reply #41 on: December 18, 2013, 09:15:11 am »
Quote from: Nyktipolos;132622
I know it's a common meme with McCoy's work, and just because I'm pointing this out does not negate the other problematic aspects of her work, but as far as I can tell McCoy never actually wrote about an "ancient Irish Potato Goddess". She does mention that the potato is a symbol of "the goddess" because it's an underground vegetable, which is definitely problematic in the sense that she ignores that the potato is a North American native food and was transplanted over (although people can connect any sort of fruit or vegetable to an ancient god, but McCoy is writing her book in the context of all this stuff being actual, ancient Irish religion).

If anyone can find a source for her having wrote this in her book(s), I'd greatly appreciate it. But when I went searching using electronic copies, I could never find her using that phrasing at all, just the above example.

 
It's all about context, really:

Quote from: McCoy
"Potatoes, Ireland's staple crop, were used magickally in spells for healing and fertility, and were also carved into various forms for image magick much as the mandrake root is today. Because they grew underground potatoes were sacred to the Goddess and used in female fertility rites. Potatoes have a grounding effect. If you feel frazzled and stressed out cuddle a potato."(p82)


There's so much wrong with that paragraph I don't even know where to start, but the last line kills me, every time. And no, she doesn't explicitly refer to a "Potato Goddess" but calling them sacred to "the Goddess" makes them her domain, so the label is reasonable enough in that respect.

At some point in the book she does admit that potatoes aren't native to Ireland, though in this particular part of the book I think she ignores that, but in many ways that makes her claims – over all and then all over again with the potatoes – even more egregious.

stephyjh

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Edain McCoy: Good, bad, or indifferent? And where else should I be looking?
« Reply #42 on: December 18, 2013, 09:49:48 am »
Quote from: Naomi J;132916
Or people of Irish origin in places that are not the US. Irish people have emigrated in many international directions over the years, and their experiences have been varied depending on country. I remember racism towards people of Irish origin here within my lifetime, for various socio-cultural reasons and inflamed by media reaction to things like IRA terrorism. Just because some countries have a good experience of Irish integration in recent years, doesn't mean all countries do. People of Irish origin, and (from what I've heard from friends and family) Irish people in Eire too, are aware of these trends and types of racism. That's part of why dismissive, belittling cultural misappropriation has overtones of racism even if it's not intended as such.

And in the case of Irish culture, not taking it particularly seriously is part of the racism. The content and quality of racism varies depending on context. Hence my ire at the 'potato goddess' thing. (Even though it seems McCoy didn't quite put it like that.)

Point taken, privilege checked. My apologies.
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Re: Edain McCoy: Good, bad, or indifferent? And where else should I be looking?
« Reply #43 on: December 18, 2013, 10:19:20 am »
Quote from: stephyjh;132906
In the US, where McCoy, Allec, and I are located, however, Irish people are simply considered white and as such part of the racial majority.

 
I think that depends somewhat on when and where in the US you're talking about.  My granddad tells some pretty crazy stories his dad passed to him about growing up Irish in the US.  There were Irish ghettos; and some of those neighborhoods of very poor, mostly of Irish descent people still exist today.
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Re: Edain McCoy: Good, bad, or indifferent? And where else should I be looking?
« Reply #44 on: December 18, 2013, 04:31:43 pm »
Quote from: Seren;132917
It's all about context, really:

There's so much wrong with that paragraph I don't even know where to start, but the last line kills me, every time. And no, she doesn't explicitly refer to a "Potato Goddess" but calling them sacred to "the Goddess" makes them her domain, so the label is reasonable enough in that respect.

At some point in the book she does admit that potatoes aren't native to Ireland, though in this particular part of the book I think she ignores that, but in many ways that makes her claims – over all and then all over again with the potatoes – even more egregious.

 
I understand. That was the only part I saw referenced to a goddess and potatoes, hence why I was wondering if I had missed a particular mention of this meme. I do understand why that paragraph can be offensive, but I feel like McCoy's work should be criticized for what she is writing, and not statements or figures created that are falsely attributed to her. It doesn't need it, in any case.
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