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Author Topic: Summary of Issues  (Read 3173 times)

HeartShadow

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Summary of Issues
« on: June 30, 2014, 02:00:53 pm »
I'm going to try and summarize the issues brought up, and see if they're all here.

    dogpiling

    snarkfests, including "why is the rep gone" posts for snark

    "if you don't know, I'm not telling you" toxicity (commonly seen in social justice circles, and I believe the "social justice" problem mentioned before)


These issues have led to a culture that's becoming toxic and bullying - I'm separating those out because I'm trying to focus on specific behaviors that can be dealt with.

Not getting into solutions, is this an accurate summary of the ISSUES?  Is something missing?

acidrica

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Re: Summary of Issues
« Reply #1 on: June 30, 2014, 02:16:54 pm »
Quote from: HeartShadow;151787
I'm going to try and summarize the issues brought up, and see if they're all here.

    dogpiling

    snarkfests, including "why is the rep gone" posts for snark

    "if you don't know, I'm not telling you" toxicity (commonly seen in social justice circles, and I believe the "social justice" problem mentioned before)


These issues have led to a culture that's becoming toxic and bullying - I'm separating those out because I'm trying to focus on specific behaviors that can be dealt with.

Not getting into solutions, is this an accurate summary of the ISSUES?  Is something missing?

 
Lack of respect and basic politeness maybe? Other than that, I do see this as accurate. I've personally found it helpful to remind people who say certain things that saying those things doesn't automatically make them the -worst person ever-. It's a mistake, and while it can/does cause harm, they aren't any less human, if that makes sense. I mean, I think there's a difference between tone policing ('I'm not going to listen to you because you're flipping out') and 'hey, you're uh, being mean'.

I'm still tired though, so this might be not be accurate.

stephyjh

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Re: Summary of Issues
« Reply #2 on: June 30, 2014, 02:19:28 pm »
Quote from: HeartShadow;151787
I'm going to try and summarize the issues brought up, and see if they're all here.

    dogpiling

    snarkfests, including "why is the rep gone" posts for snark

    "if you don't know, I'm not telling you" toxicity (commonly seen in social justice circles, and I believe the "social justice" problem mentioned before)

These issues have led to a culture that's becoming toxic and bullying - I'm separating those out because I'm trying to focus on specific behaviors that can be dealt with.

Not getting into solutions, is this an accurate summary of the ISSUES?  Is something missing?
Finger-pointing, scapegoating, and ignoring of legitimate concerns are major ones I see that you missed.

There's a current of "prove you were hurt" that makes reporting difficult if not impossible.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2014, 02:21:59 pm by stephyjh »
A heretic blast has been blown in the west,
That what is no sense must be nonsense.

-Robert Burns

HeartShadow

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Re: Summary of Issues
« Reply #3 on: June 30, 2014, 02:32:08 pm »
Quote from: stephyjh;151793
Finger-pointing, scapegoating, and ignoring of legitimate concerns are major ones I see that you missed.

There's a current of "prove you were hurt" that makes reporting difficult if not impossible.

 
The thing is, you're /saying/ that's there, but it's NEVER been a standard of proof AT ALL.

OTHER than the thread this is split off of, has there been finger pointing and scapegoating?  If so, I'll add it in.  If we're just talking that thread - surprise, a thread talking about toxic issues got toxic.

But "prove hurt" has NEVER been a standard for reporting a message, nor WILL it be.  That's part of what we're trying to avoid here - something that can be actually seen from the outside, not a subjective hurt-feeling.  Because hurt-feeling is a standard that is IMPOSSIBLE to impose without silencing everything and just sitting there.  Looking at our own feet.

stephyjh

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Re: Summary of Issues
« Reply #4 on: June 30, 2014, 02:37:57 pm »
Quote from: HeartShadow;151797
The thing is, you're /saying/ that's there, but it's NEVER been a standard of proof AT ALL.

OTHER than the thread this is split off of, has there been finger pointing and scapegoating?  If so, I'll add it in.  If we're just talking that thread - surprise, a thread talking about toxic issues got toxic.

But "prove hurt" has NEVER been a standard for reporting a message, nor WILL it be.  That's part of what we're trying to avoid here - something that can be actually seen from the outside, not a subjective hurt-feeling.  Because hurt-feeling is a standard that is IMPOSSIBLE to impose without silencing everything and just sitting there.  Looking at our own feet.
Yes. By specifying that the "if you don't know, I won't tell you" is a social justice thing rather than calling it what it is, an act of intellectual snobbery not related to the subject matter (because let's be real, "google it and come back when you know what you're talking about" isn't subject specific), that's scapegoating. I think rather than singling out one issue, it would be more effective to address the attitude of superiority that leads to that behavior.
A heretic blast has been blown in the west,
That what is no sense must be nonsense.

-Robert Burns

stephyjh

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Re: Summary of Issues
« Reply #5 on: June 30, 2014, 02:43:36 pm »
Quote from: stephyjh;151799
Yes. By specifying that the "if you don't know, I won't tell you" is a social justice thing rather than calling it what it is, an act of intellectual snobbery not related to the subject matter (because let's be real, "google it and come back when you know what you're talking about" isn't subject specific), that's scapegoating. I think rather than singling out one issue, it would be more effective to address the attitude of superiority that leads to that behavior.
To clarify, I don't claim that the problematic behavior doesn't happen around social justice issues. What I am saying is that it happens around enough other issues (burning times, shamanism, etc.) that you have the roots all wrong.
A heretic blast has been blown in the west,
That what is no sense must be nonsense.

-Robert Burns

Merin

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Re: Summary of Issues
« Reply #6 on: June 30, 2014, 03:14:39 pm »
Quote from: HeartShadow;151787
I'm going to try and summarize the issues brought up, and see if they're all here.

 
I think there is also a "If you don't know, then why are you asking?" or a "If you don't understand [something], then why are you posting?" thing going on, which is related to the "If you don't know, then I won't explain it to you."

It's seriously frustrating, because if I am asking, then  I want to know! :)

MadZealot

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Re: Summary of Issues
« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2014, 07:45:14 pm »
Quote from: stephyjh;151799
By specifying that the "if you don't know, I won't tell you" is a social justice thing rather than calling it what it is, an act of intellectual snobbery not related to the subject matter (because let's be real, "google it and come back when you know what you're talking about" isn't subject specific)

Stephy has a point.  This behaviour manifests in different ways, usually when one is asked for documentation to support a claim, ranging from the slightly snarky "google is your friend" to the outright bitchy "I'm not your dancing monkey."  And it happens in non-SJ discussions too.
So, yeah, this needs to be on the list, but in modified form.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2014, 07:48:55 pm by MadZealot »
Oh, is it time again to say "Fuck Trump gently in the ear with a swarm of pissed-off hornets?"?

Okay. Fuck Trump gently in the ear with a swarm of pissed-off hornets.

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