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Author Topic: General Feedback: Proposal; NSFW areas for discussing the intersection of sexuality and sexuality  (Read 844 times)

Hariti

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This site is a great site, (and it has a great Discord server!) but both the forum and the Discord are lacking in one crucial area; NSFW discussion.
Sexuality is an integral part of the lives of many (if not most) pagans, and human beings more generally. It is something that relates and interacts with religion and spirituality in complex and often complicated ways.

Yet. This site does not encourage the discussion of sexual topics—if anything, it discourages them. To me this seems like an oversight that needs correction. It would make TC much more inclusive and holistic if there were areas for the discussion of sexual topics.

I would personally suggest adding such areas to the forum andthe Discord server.
"The worshippers of the gods go to them; to the manes go the ancestor-worshippers; to the Deities who preside over the elements go their worshippers; My devotees come to Me." ... "Whichever devotee desires to adore whatever such Deity with faith, in all such votaries I make that particular faith unshakable. Endowed with that faith, a votary performs the worship of that particular deity and obtains the fruits thereof, these being granted by Me alone." - Sri Krishna

Castus

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This site is a great site, (and it has a great Discord server!) but both the forum and the Discord are lacking in one crucial area; NSFW discussion.
Sexuality is an integral part of the lives of many (if not most) pagans, and human beings more generally. It is something that relates and interacts with religion and spirituality in complex and often complicated ways.

Yet. This site does not encourage the discussion of sexual topics—if anything, it discourages them. To me this seems like an oversight that needs correction. It would make TC much more inclusive and holistic if there were areas for the discussion of sexual topics.

I would personally suggest adding such areas to the forum andthe Discord server.


I’m not in favour. There are plenty of places on the internet to discuss such things and TC does not have to be one of them. Yes, sexuality frequently and inevitably intersects with religion; and admittedly the pagan community writ large has always had a disproportionate amount of people who colour outside the socio-sexual lines. Even with that in mind, however, I simply don’t see a need for it. TC has always enjoyed an intelligent and articulate userbase and it isn’t like we’ve never discussed sexuality in relation to religion; it’s just been handled with tact and discretion. I have faith that Cauldronites can continue that tradition as-needed.

Also I feel it’s important to note that TC has likewise always been robustly welcoming of younger members. Personally I was 13 when I first signed up. Given the times, and the decline in forum-style communication, I think the number of young people we have coming in the doors is... probably not going to tick back up any time soon; but we should still keep them open wide all the same. Having an area devoted to NSFW stuff would require some level of policing in terms of who can and can’t see it, and I don’t think handling that is a reasonable ask of the staff apropos of no serious problem.

For the Discord though, sure. That’s a different and much more free-form and informal kettle of fish.
“Castus, meanwhile, goes straight for the bad theology like one of those creepy fish that swims up streams of pee.” — Darkhawk

Hariti

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I’m not in favour. There are plenty of places on the internet to discuss such things and TC does not have to be one of them. Yes, sexuality frequently and inevitably intersects with religion; and admittedly the pagan community writ large has always had a disproportionate amount of people who colour outside the socio-sexual lines. Even with that in mind, however, I simply don’t see a need for it. TC has always enjoyed an intelligent and articulate userbase and it isn’t like we’ve never discussed sexuality in relation to religion; it’s just been handled with tact and discretion. I have faith that Cauldronites can continue that tradition as-needed.

Also I feel it’s important to note that TC has likewise always been robustly welcoming of younger members. Personally I was 13 when I first signed up. Given the times, and the decline in forum-style communication, I think the number of young people we have coming in the doors is... probably not going to tick back up any time soon; but we should still keep them open wide all the same. Having an area devoted to NSFW stuff would require some level of policing in terms of who can and can’t see it, and I don’t think handling that is a reasonable ask of the staff apropos of no serious problem.

For the Discord though, sure. That’s a different and much more free-form and informal kettle of fish.

I suppose you have a valid argument, regarding the number of younger members here. Still, surely there could at least be a... SIG, or something similar, that vets members who join to make sure they're of age?
"The worshippers of the gods go to them; to the manes go the ancestor-worshippers; to the Deities who preside over the elements go their worshippers; My devotees come to Me." ... "Whichever devotee desires to adore whatever such Deity with faith, in all such votaries I make that particular faith unshakable. Endowed with that faith, a votary performs the worship of that particular deity and obtains the fruits thereof, these being granted by Me alone." - Sri Krishna

Jenett

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I would personally suggest adding such areas to the forum andthe Discord server.

Just to let folks know: staff has been aware there's interest in something like this, but we've been working on figuring out what format that might take, and how to make sure it's managed well, both of which present some specific challenges.

We previously had a channel on the Discord: however there were multiple comments there that went beyond the channel boundaries in ways that also crossed TC rules. Discord presents a different set of challenges in terms of redirecting conversations, catching them before they continue down a line that isn't in keeping with the channel and forum focus/rules, and simply in terms of making sure staff know what's going on there... So that one's still under discussion too.

All of which is to say, yes, under discussion, timeline uncertain.
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Hariti

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We previously had a channel on the Discord: however there were multiple comments there that went beyond the channel boundaries in ways that also crossed TC rules. Discord presents a different set of challenges in terms of redirecting conversations, catching them before they continue down a line that isn't in keeping with the channel and forum focus/rules, and simply in terms of making sure staff know what's going on there... So that one's still under discussion too.

Perhaps I am naive, but... could you not have simply kicked the offenders from the Discord and been done with it? Rather than removing the room entirely? Banning and kicking are essential tools for running a Discord server. It's not quite the same as banning and kicking on a forum.
"The worshippers of the gods go to them; to the manes go the ancestor-worshippers; to the Deities who preside over the elements go their worshippers; My devotees come to Me." ... "Whichever devotee desires to adore whatever such Deity with faith, in all such votaries I make that particular faith unshakable. Endowed with that faith, a votary performs the worship of that particular deity and obtains the fruits thereof, these being granted by Me alone." - Sri Krishna

Jenett

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Perhaps I am naive, but... could you not have simply kicked the offenders from the Discord and been done with it? Rather than removing the room entirely? Banning and kicking are essential tools for running a Discord server. It's not quite the same as banning and kicking on a forum.

First, I want to be clear here that I'm speaking for myself, not for other staff, but with my 'been around the place a long time' hat on.

Banning and kicking without the steps we take on the forum would mean applying rules and moderation differently from how we do it on the forum, which is not a philosophical approach that I think staff are inclined to, for a variety of reasons. Here's the previous announcement of it (a thread you participated in at the time, now I've reread it!) which points out that the Cauldron rules also apply to Discord.

On the forum, there's a range of possible responses ranging from redirecting the conversation, telling people to knock it off without it being a formal warning, and only if those don't work or there are persistent problems, do we move on to formal warnings and bans.

There are bunch of reasons for this, but one of the big ones, from my point of view, is that it's very easy to misread tone in text. (And relevant to Discord, especially in fast moving chat situations without a chance to preview and edit.)

We have plenty of people who are neurodivergent, those who deal with anxiety issues around saying things about a large range of topics, etc. We also hear fairly regularly from people who are concerned they've given offense, for things that are quite far away from an actual rules violation. Having a clear set of "here's how things progress" is helpful to everyone in making it clear that you're not going to get banned for a single event in almost all cases. (Spammers and virulent hate speech are pretty much the big exceptions.)

Personally speaking, I want to hear and make space for those voices in Discord (and the forum), and I'm very wary of rules that would make people feel that a single misstep or someone misreading their comments would lead to a rapid ban even if it were later removed after we'd had a chance to work out what happened. And personally, I think that's way more destructive to meaningful conversation than not having an outlet for a particular topic, no matter how relevant. 

There's also the issue that once a problematic comment is there, banning the person resolves some of the issue (they can't do that again in that space) but doesn't remove anxiety, stress, threat-response, etc. for the people who saw it happen. Given the number of people with harassment and sexual assault in their history, this is something that's obviously more complicated for sexual topics than a lot of others.

The more substantial thing we haven't solved is that it's quite possible for an issue to crop up on Discord, and for it to be some time before a staff member sees it or hears about it. By that time conversation has moved on, the person who made the comment may not be around, etc. And there's no quick and easy report button, like there is on the forum, so someone who is concerned about an issue may ping a staff member they feel comfortable with (great!) but that staff member may not check in for an extended period of time for all sorts of reasons.

In the previous announcement (linked above) we did encourage people to report that thread if they needed to report a chat issue (like all reports, that will go to all staff), but that doesn't entirely address all of the concerns. Hence the ongoing conversation.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2020, 03:35:53 pm by Jenett »
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First, I want to be clear here that I'm speaking for myself, not for other staff, but with my 'been around the place a long time' hat on.

Jenett is speaking for herself, but it has host endorsement. She sums up the issues staff are looking at very well.

And, as she noted earlier, such an area (quite possibly as a private SIG forum) is being considered by staff, several of whom would (as TC Members) also like to have one. I don't guarantee outright that it'll come to pass, but it's looked on favorably (and in a form in which Castus and others who don't want to see it won't have to).

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Hariti

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Jenett is speaking for herself, but it has host endorsement. She sums up the issues staff are looking at very well.

And, as she noted earlier, such an area (quite possibly as a private SIG forum) is being considered by staff, several of whom would (as TC Members) also like to have one. I don't guarantee outright that it'll come to pass, but it's looked on favorably (and in a form in which Castus and others who don't want to see it won't have to).

Sunflower

Duly noted, Sunflower. I will be patient and see what (if anything) you can come up with. I understand it's a complex situation.
"The worshippers of the gods go to them; to the manes go the ancestor-worshippers; to the Deities who preside over the elements go their worshippers; My devotees come to Me." ... "Whichever devotee desires to adore whatever such Deity with faith, in all such votaries I make that particular faith unshakable. Endowed with that faith, a votary performs the worship of that particular deity and obtains the fruits thereof, these being granted by Me alone." - Sri Krishna

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