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Author Topic: General Feedback: Proposal; NSFW areas for discussing the intersection of sexuality and sexuality  (Read 4802 times)

Hariti

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This site is a great site, (and it has a great Discord server!) but both the forum and the Discord are lacking in one crucial area; NSFW discussion.
Sexuality is an integral part of the lives of many (if not most) pagans, and human beings more generally. It is something that relates and interacts with religion and spirituality in complex and often complicated ways.

Yet. This site does not encourage the discussion of sexual topics—if anything, it discourages them. To me this seems like an oversight that needs correction. It would make TC much more inclusive and holistic if there were areas for the discussion of sexual topics.

I would personally suggest adding such areas to the forum andthe Discord server.
"The worshippers of the gods go to them; to the manes go the ancestor-worshippers; to the Deities who preside over the elements go their worshippers; My devotees come to Me." ... "Whichever devotee desires to adore whatever such Deity with faith, in all such votaries I make that particular faith unshakable. Endowed with that faith, a votary performs the worship of that particular deity and obtains the fruits thereof, these being granted by Me alone." - Sri Krishna

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This site is a great site, (and it has a great Discord server!) but both the forum and the Discord are lacking in one crucial area; NSFW discussion.
Sexuality is an integral part of the lives of many (if not most) pagans, and human beings more generally. It is something that relates and interacts with religion and spirituality in complex and often complicated ways.

Yet. This site does not encourage the discussion of sexual topics—if anything, it discourages them. To me this seems like an oversight that needs correction. It would make TC much more inclusive and holistic if there were areas for the discussion of sexual topics.

I would personally suggest adding such areas to the forum andthe Discord server.


I’m not in favour. There are plenty of places on the internet to discuss such things and TC does not have to be one of them. Yes, sexuality frequently and inevitably intersects with religion; and admittedly the pagan community writ large has always had a disproportionate amount of people who colour outside the socio-sexual lines. Even with that in mind, however, I simply don’t see a need for it. TC has always enjoyed an intelligent and articulate userbase and it isn’t like we’ve never discussed sexuality in relation to religion; it’s just been handled with tact and discretion. I have faith that Cauldronites can continue that tradition as-needed.

Also I feel it’s important to note that TC has likewise always been robustly welcoming of younger members. Personally I was 13 when I first signed up. Given the times, and the decline in forum-style communication, I think the number of young people we have coming in the doors is... probably not going to tick back up any time soon; but we should still keep them open wide all the same. Having an area devoted to NSFW stuff would require some level of policing in terms of who can and can’t see it, and I don’t think handling that is a reasonable ask of the staff apropos of no serious problem.

For the Discord though, sure. That’s a different and much more free-form and informal kettle of fish.
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Hariti

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I’m not in favour. There are plenty of places on the internet to discuss such things and TC does not have to be one of them. Yes, sexuality frequently and inevitably intersects with religion; and admittedly the pagan community writ large has always had a disproportionate amount of people who colour outside the socio-sexual lines. Even with that in mind, however, I simply don’t see a need for it. TC has always enjoyed an intelligent and articulate userbase and it isn’t like we’ve never discussed sexuality in relation to religion; it’s just been handled with tact and discretion. I have faith that Cauldronites can continue that tradition as-needed.

Also I feel it’s important to note that TC has likewise always been robustly welcoming of younger members. Personally I was 13 when I first signed up. Given the times, and the decline in forum-style communication, I think the number of young people we have coming in the doors is... probably not going to tick back up any time soon; but we should still keep them open wide all the same. Having an area devoted to NSFW stuff would require some level of policing in terms of who can and can’t see it, and I don’t think handling that is a reasonable ask of the staff apropos of no serious problem.

For the Discord though, sure. That’s a different and much more free-form and informal kettle of fish.

I suppose you have a valid argument, regarding the number of younger members here. Still, surely there could at least be a... SIG, or something similar, that vets members who join to make sure they're of age?
"The worshippers of the gods go to them; to the manes go the ancestor-worshippers; to the Deities who preside over the elements go their worshippers; My devotees come to Me." ... "Whichever devotee desires to adore whatever such Deity with faith, in all such votaries I make that particular faith unshakable. Endowed with that faith, a votary performs the worship of that particular deity and obtains the fruits thereof, these being granted by Me alone." - Sri Krishna

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I would personally suggest adding such areas to the forum andthe Discord server.

Just to let folks know: staff has been aware there's interest in something like this, but we've been working on figuring out what format that might take, and how to make sure it's managed well, both of which present some specific challenges.

We previously had a channel on the Discord: however there were multiple comments there that went beyond the channel boundaries in ways that also crossed TC rules. Discord presents a different set of challenges in terms of redirecting conversations, catching them before they continue down a line that isn't in keeping with the channel and forum focus/rules, and simply in terms of making sure staff know what's going on there... So that one's still under discussion too.

All of which is to say, yes, under discussion, timeline uncertain.
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Hariti

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We previously had a channel on the Discord: however there were multiple comments there that went beyond the channel boundaries in ways that also crossed TC rules. Discord presents a different set of challenges in terms of redirecting conversations, catching them before they continue down a line that isn't in keeping with the channel and forum focus/rules, and simply in terms of making sure staff know what's going on there... So that one's still under discussion too.

Perhaps I am naive, but... could you not have simply kicked the offenders from the Discord and been done with it? Rather than removing the room entirely? Banning and kicking are essential tools for running a Discord server. It's not quite the same as banning and kicking on a forum.
"The worshippers of the gods go to them; to the manes go the ancestor-worshippers; to the Deities who preside over the elements go their worshippers; My devotees come to Me." ... "Whichever devotee desires to adore whatever such Deity with faith, in all such votaries I make that particular faith unshakable. Endowed with that faith, a votary performs the worship of that particular deity and obtains the fruits thereof, these being granted by Me alone." - Sri Krishna

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Perhaps I am naive, but... could you not have simply kicked the offenders from the Discord and been done with it? Rather than removing the room entirely? Banning and kicking are essential tools for running a Discord server. It's not quite the same as banning and kicking on a forum.

First, I want to be clear here that I'm speaking for myself, not for other staff, but with my 'been around the place a long time' hat on.

Banning and kicking without the steps we take on the forum would mean applying rules and moderation differently from how we do it on the forum, which is not a philosophical approach that I think staff are inclined to, for a variety of reasons. Here's the previous announcement of it (a thread you participated in at the time, now I've reread it!) which points out that the Cauldron rules also apply to Discord.

On the forum, there's a range of possible responses ranging from redirecting the conversation, telling people to knock it off without it being a formal warning, and only if those don't work or there are persistent problems, do we move on to formal warnings and bans.

There are bunch of reasons for this, but one of the big ones, from my point of view, is that it's very easy to misread tone in text. (And relevant to Discord, especially in fast moving chat situations without a chance to preview and edit.)

We have plenty of people who are neurodivergent, those who deal with anxiety issues around saying things about a large range of topics, etc. We also hear fairly regularly from people who are concerned they've given offense, for things that are quite far away from an actual rules violation. Having a clear set of "here's how things progress" is helpful to everyone in making it clear that you're not going to get banned for a single event in almost all cases. (Spammers and virulent hate speech are pretty much the big exceptions.)

Personally speaking, I want to hear and make space for those voices in Discord (and the forum), and I'm very wary of rules that would make people feel that a single misstep or someone misreading their comments would lead to a rapid ban even if it were later removed after we'd had a chance to work out what happened. And personally, I think that's way more destructive to meaningful conversation than not having an outlet for a particular topic, no matter how relevant. 

There's also the issue that once a problematic comment is there, banning the person resolves some of the issue (they can't do that again in that space) but doesn't remove anxiety, stress, threat-response, etc. for the people who saw it happen. Given the number of people with harassment and sexual assault in their history, this is something that's obviously more complicated for sexual topics than a lot of others.

The more substantial thing we haven't solved is that it's quite possible for an issue to crop up on Discord, and for it to be some time before a staff member sees it or hears about it. By that time conversation has moved on, the person who made the comment may not be around, etc. And there's no quick and easy report button, like there is on the forum, so someone who is concerned about an issue may ping a staff member they feel comfortable with (great!) but that staff member may not check in for an extended period of time for all sorts of reasons.

In the previous announcement (linked above) we did encourage people to report that thread if they needed to report a chat issue (like all reports, that will go to all staff), but that doesn't entirely address all of the concerns. Hence the ongoing conversation.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2020, 03:35:53 pm by Jenett »
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First, I want to be clear here that I'm speaking for myself, not for other staff, but with my 'been around the place a long time' hat on.

Jenett is speaking for herself, but it has host endorsement. She sums up the issues staff are looking at very well.

And, as she noted earlier, such an area (quite possibly as a private SIG forum) is being considered by staff, several of whom would (as TC Members) also like to have one. I don't guarantee outright that it'll come to pass, but it's looked on favorably (and in a form in which Castus and others who don't want to see it won't have to).

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Jenett is speaking for herself, but it has host endorsement. She sums up the issues staff are looking at very well.

And, as she noted earlier, such an area (quite possibly as a private SIG forum) is being considered by staff, several of whom would (as TC Members) also like to have one. I don't guarantee outright that it'll come to pass, but it's looked on favorably (and in a form in which Castus and others who don't want to see it won't have to).

Sunflower

Duly noted, Sunflower. I will be patient and see what (if anything) you can come up with. I understand it's a complex situation.
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Jenett is speaking for herself, but it has host endorsement. She sums up the issues staff are looking at very well.

And, as she noted earlier, such an area (quite possibly as a private SIG forum) is being considered by staff, several of whom would (as TC Members) also like to have one. I don't guarantee outright that it'll come to pass, but it's looked on favorably (and in a form in which Castus and others who don't want to see it won't have to).

Sunflower

I'm curious if it is at all possible to create a channel in Discord wherein it's private to only those members that wish to join it? In addition, I know there are ways to authenticate a user's age so that they are in fact of legal age. Is this currently under research by TC Staff?
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SunflowerP

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I'm curious if it is at all possible to create a channel in Discord wherein it's private to only those members that wish to join it?

Yes, the upcoming SS-SIG channel will be accessible only to members of the (also private; see sticky thread in the Cauldron Community forum for how to join) SS SIG forum.

Quote
In addition, I know there are ways to authenticate a user's age so that they are in fact of legal age. Is this currently under research by TC Staff?

Neither I nor any of the other staff members with whom I've discussed it are aware of any such ways that are both reliable and not excessively privacy-intrusive. If you know of any that are both of those things, please do share.

This is, though, not pertinent to any issues we've encountered in practice with 'NSFW' areas of TC; the issues we've seen have involved adults behaving inappropriately. (This is also true of various of my experiences over several decades and a wide range of venues online and offline: younger folks granted access to venues with 'adult' activity of whatever sort rarely behave anywhere near as badly as - some - chronological adults behave when they know there are no under-18s present.)

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Hariti

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Yes, the upcoming SS-SIG channel will be accessible only to members of the (also private; see sticky thread in the Cauldron Community forum for how to join) SS SIG forum.

That makes me wonder if we could get a Discord channel for the Cauldron Cill. Speaking personally, that would make it easier for me to keep up with my shift, and to keep in contact generally.
"The worshippers of the gods go to them; to the manes go the ancestor-worshippers; to the Deities who preside over the elements go their worshippers; My devotees come to Me." ... "Whichever devotee desires to adore whatever such Deity with faith, in all such votaries I make that particular faith unshakable. Endowed with that faith, a votary performs the worship of that particular deity and obtains the fruits thereof, these being granted by Me alone." - Sri Krishna

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That makes me wonder if we could get a Discord channel for the Cauldron Cill. Speaking personally, that would make it easier for me to keep up with my shift, and to keep in contact generally.

Every so often, I think about doing that, but never get around to thinking about it for long enough to decide whether to or not (or to decide to make a thread to discuss it in the private Cill area). I'll bump this higher on my to-do list!

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Perhaps I am naive, but... could you not have simply kicked the offenders from the Discord and been done with it? Rather than removing the room entirely? Banning and kicking are essential tools for running a Discord server. It's not quite the same as banning and kicking on a forum.

Not!staff, so take my words more as "additions to the conversation" rather than "laying down the law"  ;D

My sexuality is a large part of my spirituality, or at least the two are intertwined. That said, I'm a little wary of creating a section that invites conversations on these topics - it's so incredibly fraught.

I love the Cauldron community and have found the people here to be, broadly, sensible and kind; I've been here on and off for a decade, maybe more. So, broadly, this is a social community I trust & I think would be OK at managing a channel like this.

But I'm feeling a little burnt after a recent experience on a discord server which escalated incredibly quickly. When I started permitting NSFW chat, I sort of assumed it would be slightly cheeky fanfic - and had no idea what the community would want to do with that freedom is, essentially, people with a lot of un-handled shame taking pleasure in bullying people for having the "wrong" thoughts and writing the "wrong" kind of fiction.

Without any real consideration that a social community contains people with all kinds of lived experiences, and these kinds of reactionary politics would be (unintentionally, I hope) very hostile to people who are neurodivergent, survivors, LGBT, kinky, sex workers, all sorts of people who have been marginalised for their sexual expression.

lesson learned.

So, without wanting to put a damper on a promising idea, I feel extremely Cautious about NSFW sections in open/mixed social groups which haven't primarily organised themselves around a NSFW theme*. There's a reason why "don't talk about yr sex life in public" is a social norm, & I guess my concern is that 1) other people would move into the space whose conversations were hostile to me, or, 2) the conversations I had and started would be hostile to others - neither of which I want to have happen.

I wouldn't want to mandate "100% of the Cauldron NSFW conversations must be things to my taste which I agree with" - but I never want to go through that other experience again, it was horrifying.

(*i.e. the good thing about Discord Server For An Obscure Kink or Discord Server For Horrified Mothers Who Want To Ban This Sick Filth, is that members of the community are self-selecting around that particular stance. Which isn't true of a forum for Neo-Pagans)
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But I'm feeling a little burnt after a recent experience on a discord server which escalated incredibly quickly. When I started permitting NSFW chat, I sort of assumed it would be slightly cheeky fanfic - and had no idea what the community would want to do with that freedom is, essentially, people with a lot of un-handled shame taking pleasure in bullying people for having the "wrong" thoughts and writing the "wrong" kind of fiction.

Oh, gods, the Purity Police. That's an ongoing conflict in fic fandom and adjacent spaces (basically, from what I can tell - and I've studied it some - is that it's Ship Wars that have escalated far beyond specific ships, and as they grew, been co-opted by other factions with axes to grind). The most revolting thing about it is that Purity Culture folks often claim to be doing their policing for the purpose of keeping abuse survivors and oppressed folks 'safe'.

Let me assure you that TC staff are acquainted with the phenomenon, do not care for it, and have as much interest in providing a platform for it as we have in providing a platform for any other sort of Social Justice Bullying, or bullying of any sort, which is to say, none whatsoever. And, yes, this is one of the considerations in getting the SS-SIG Discord channel going.

Thank you for your detailed input!

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The most revolting thing about it is that Purity Culture folks often claim to be doing their policing for the purpose of keeping abuse survivors and oppressed folks 'safe'.

That's what tags are for   ::) <sarcasm> But we can't let people have agency over their own trauma and healing. </sarcasm> (I have Opinions, but that's another thread I think.)

This sort of thing is why the forum-side SIG is private and has special rules.
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