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Author Topic: Ideas/Planning for the New Forum  (Read 12021 times)

beachglass

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Re: Ideas/Planning for the New Forum
« Reply #75 on: February 26, 2015, 12:54:57 pm »
Quote from: RandallS;169579
This thread is for any ideas/suggestions/etc. members may have with respect to the new forum -- for example, organization changes or the like. This thread is open to all ideas and suggestions, even those you believe staff or hosts will not like. However, the Co-Hosts have final say as to which suggestions are adopted.

 
Will there still be a reputation system after the move? If so, could we consider something that puts more focus on individual posts (e.g. an upvote/downvote system)?

Right now I can't find a way to see if a post got a lot of positive or negative rep, and I think that making this information visible might naturally prevent some "dogpiles." That is, people may be less likely to add to a chorus of critical responses if they can see that the post in question has been downvoted several times (and moreso if the first critical response also receives several upvotes).

I'd also prefer that this not be the type of system that hides posts under a certain threshold, as I think that sometimes draws more attention to them, and also breaks conversation.
"The further we go, and older we grow, the more we know, the less we show."  ~ Robert Smith

stephyjh

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Re: Ideas/Planning for the New Forum
« Reply #76 on: February 26, 2015, 01:44:45 pm »
Quote from: beachglass;171732
Will there still be a reputation system after the move? If so, could we consider something that puts more focus on individual posts (e.g. an upvote/downvote system)?

Right now I can't find a way to see if a post got a lot of positive or negative rep, and I think that making this information visible might naturally prevent some "dogpiles." That is, people may be less likely to add to a chorus of critical responses if they can see that the post in question has been downvoted several times (and moreso if the first critical response also receives several upvotes).

I'd also prefer that this not be the type of system that hides posts under a certain threshold, as I think that sometimes draws more attention to them, and also breaks conversation.

 
I feel like the Reddit-style post popularity contest you're proposing would do more harm than good. The rep system we have is already problematic enough, and I'd be happier seeing it go away than enhanced.
A heretic blast has been blown in the west,
That what is no sense must be nonsense.

-Robert Burns

Jabberwocky

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Re: Ideas/Planning for the New Forum
« Reply #77 on: February 26, 2015, 01:53:38 pm »
Quote from: stephyjh;171735
I feel like the Reddit-style post popularity contest you're proposing would do more harm than good. The rep system we have is already problematic enough, and I'd be happier seeing it go away than enhanced.

 
Yeah, this.

It would lead to rep wars.  That is not a good thing.

I've seen this work once.  On a gaming board run by a Something Awful goon where trolling each other was kinda the point of the board.  If that's not the vibe you want, I'd steer clear.

I'd personally like to see neg rep removed entirely.  It's very rarely productive.
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Re: Ideas/Planning for the New Forum
« Reply #78 on: February 26, 2015, 02:00:19 pm »
Quote from: Jabberwocky;171738

I'd personally like to see neg rep removed entirely.  It's very rarely productive.

 
I feel like I remember reading somewhere (possibly in chat) that there won't be a rep system on SMF. But I could be wrong.
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beachglass

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Re: Ideas/Planning for the New Forum
« Reply #79 on: February 26, 2015, 02:39:25 pm »
Quote from: stephyjh;171735
I feel like the Reddit-style post popularity contest you're proposing would do more harm than good. The rep system we have is already problematic enough, and I'd be happier seeing it go away than enhanced.


Perhaps I assume to much in thinking people would use it in the intended way. :) There's a sort of similar system on Ravelry (agree/disagree/etc), which seems to work reasonably smoothly but does cause friction sometimes. But that's the only board I frequent that uses that type of system (other than /. years and years ago), so I'll admit my experience here is limited.

Do you think the problem is upvote/downvote in itself, or is it anonymity of votes that allows "rep wars," or something else? Is there any place that does this well?

I certainly wouldn't mind if we didn't have a rep system at all. I think TC ran just fine before it existed. The quality posters usually made themselves apparent.
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Re: Ideas/Planning for the New Forum
« Reply #80 on: February 26, 2015, 03:30:43 pm »
Quote from: HarpingHawke;171740
I feel like I remember reading somewhere (possibly in chat) that there won't be a rep system on SMF. But I could be wrong.

 
I have a reasonably clear memory of saying, in chat, that the older version of SMF hadn't had one, so the new one might well not either, or if it did, it would likely be an add-on (as indeed it is here on VB) that we might not opt to add on - and that I would be against adding it on, if Randall were to consult his staff about it.

I don't specifically recall you being there at the time, but you could well have been.

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Re: Ideas/Planning for the New Forum
« Reply #81 on: February 26, 2015, 03:32:15 pm »
Quote from: SunflowerP;171748

I don't specifically recall you being there at the time, but you could well have been.

Sunflower

 
I don't think I added to the discussion about it, but I was definitely there. :p
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stephyjh

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Re: Ideas/Planning for the New Forum
« Reply #82 on: February 26, 2015, 05:04:53 pm »
Quote from: beachglass;171745
Perhaps I assume to much in thinking people would use it in the intended way. :) There's a sort of similar system on Ravelry (agree/disagree/etc), which seems to work reasonably smoothly but does cause friction sometimes. But that's the only board I frequent that uses that type of system (other than /. years and years ago), so I'll admit my experience here is limited.

Do you think the problem is upvote/downvote in itself, or is it anonymity of votes that allows "rep wars," or something else? Is there any place that does this well?

I certainly wouldn't mind if we didn't have a rep system at all. I think TC ran just fine before it existed. The quality posters usually made themselves apparent.
I'm going off the rep comments I've received in recent months, such as one that simply said "bitch," and one this morning that accused me of a "colossal failure of reading comprehension," when I say that the rep system is how people dish out the abuse that the rules prevent them from on the board. It's cruel and toxic, and it needs to go.
A heretic blast has been blown in the west,
That what is no sense must be nonsense.

-Robert Burns

beachglass

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Re: Ideas/Planning for the New Forum
« Reply #83 on: February 26, 2015, 05:58:02 pm »
Quote from: stephyjh;171763
I'm going off the rep comments I've received in recent months, such as one that simply said "bitch," and one this morning that accused me of a "colossal failure of reading comprehension," when I say that the rep system is how people dish out the abuse that the rules prevent them from on the board. It's cruel and toxic, and it needs to go.

 
Anonymous comments on rep -- yeah, I see what you're saying here. Much potential for abuse. I don't post enough to attract much attention in that area, so it wasn't even on my radar. It sucks that people have misused the system to attack you.

My original thought was that it would be nice if the rep was more attached to posts/content than people. But it may be that no rep system adds enough value that it's worth the problems it will cause.
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Re: Ideas/Planning for the New Forum
« Reply #84 on: February 26, 2015, 06:12:05 pm »
Quote from: stephyjh;171763
the rep system is how people dish out the abuse that the rules prevent them from on the board.

 
Staff hat on:

The rep system is still part of the board.  Abusive behaviour in the rep system is no more acceptable there than on the board.

HOWEVER.  Staff is not in the habit of digging around and reading through the rep comments, because doing so is both effortful and not part of the regular routine of board moderation, which means we do not know unless we come across it by random luck or the comment is reported.
as the water grinds the stone
we rise and fall
as our ashes turn to dust
we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

Fier

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Re: Ideas/Planning for the New Forum
« Reply #85 on: February 26, 2015, 06:24:49 pm »
Quote from: stephyjh;171763
I'm going off the rep comments I've received in recent months, such as one that simply said "bitch," and one this morning that accused me of a "colossal failure of reading comprehension," when I say that the rep system is how people dish out the abuse that the rules prevent them from on the board. It's cruel and toxic, and it needs to go.

 
I was just going to say that I find the rep feature annoying when people feel the need to bump a thread with a useless post of "You have pass rep around before giving X again". (Don't we frown upon posting just to say something like "I agree"? Why are rep posts any different?) -- But your experience of being called names through the rep system is a much more serious problem. I agree that it's not something we should worry about keeping.

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Re: Ideas/Planning for the New Forum
« Reply #86 on: February 26, 2015, 07:07:50 pm »
Quote from: Darkhawk;171778
Staff hat on:

The rep system is still part of the board.  Abusive behaviour in the rep system is no more acceptable there than on the board.

HOWEVER.  Staff is not in the habit of digging around and reading through the rep comments, because doing so is both effortful and not part of the regular routine of board moderation, which means we do not know unless we come across it by random luck or the comment is reported.

 
I will add to this, that the incident involving the 'bitch' rep comment was brought to staff attention and dealt with.

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Re: Ideas/Planning for the New Forum
« Reply #87 on: February 26, 2015, 08:08:12 pm »
Quote from: SunflowerP;171789
I will add to this, that the incident involving the 'bitch' rep comment was brought to staff attention and dealt with.

 
Thanks, Sunf, I couldn't recall if that was one that specifically came to our attention.
as the water grinds the stone
we rise and fall
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stephyjh

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Re: Ideas/Planning for the New Forum
« Reply #88 on: February 26, 2015, 09:12:23 pm »
Quote from: SunflowerP;171789
I will add to this, that the incident involving the 'bitch' rep comment was brought to staff attention and dealt with.

Sunflower
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To be fair, you did deal with it. My point in bringing it up was not to imply differently, merely that certain individuals had hidden behind the rep system to hurt me,  and that they'd succeeded in doing so, whatever consequences they might have faced after the fact. That's not a reflection on the staff, by any means, and I don't mean it as one. But whether there were consequences or not,  I got hurt, more than once, and our current rep system allowed it. So I'm glad it's likely going away.

*edited for a typo
A heretic blast has been blown in the west,
That what is no sense must be nonsense.

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Jabberwocky

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Re: Ideas/Planning for the New Forum
« Reply #89 on: February 26, 2015, 09:24:29 pm »
Quote from: stephyjh;171814
My point in bringing it up was not to imply differently, merely that certain individuals had hidden behind the rep system to hurt me,  and that they'd succeeded in doing so, whatever consequences they might have faced after the fact. That's not a reflection on the staff, by any means, and I don't mean it as one. But whether there were consequences or not,  I got hurt, more than once, and our current rep system allowed it. So I'm glad it's likely going away.

*edited for a typo

 
Fuck.  I'm sorry you were put through that.

Yeah, that absolutely solidifies my opposition to neg rep then.  I can see absolutely no benefits in allowing posters to anonymously downvote each other's posts, even without this kind of abuse.

I'm not particularly attached to the positive rep system (if it's possible to have one and not the other), but I'm not against it either.  That I think can play a constructive part.  Although as one of my main things in favour of it is that it reduces the risk of "me too" posts, if it's kept, it'd be better if people could be gently dissuaded from "I must spread some rep around" type posts.
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