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Author Topic: Have We Become What We Hate?  (Read 11991 times)

Sefiru

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Re: Have We Become What We Hate?
« Reply #15 on: February 20, 2015, 06:52:47 pm »
Quote from: Redfaery;171204
Well...no, not noticing that. I'm noticing that here at the Cauldron it's difficult for someone to voice casually homophobic, transphobic, ableist, etc. opinions without being called on it...and 20 years ago that probably wasn't the case, because awareness of those issues wasn't really a "thing" for most people.

 
Heck, it wasn't really a "thing" six years ago. Between 2009-2014 I stopped reading TC; before I left, I can't really recall social justice topics coming up much. When I came back I was surprised how much it was mentioned. I know there were some quite heated threads last year about the whole derailing thing.

I gotta say, though, the pronoun field is pretty awesome. I had no idea there were so many gender-diverse people on the board.

Jabberwocky

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Re: Have We Become What We Hate?
« Reply #16 on: February 20, 2015, 09:53:31 pm »
Quote from: Sefiru;171233
Heck, it wasn't really a "thing" six years ago. Between 2009-2014 I stopped reading TC; before I left, I can't really recall social justice topics coming up much.

 
It depends on the specifics.

Back in the early noughties, I was still fully aware that you didn't use homophobic slurs or tell racist jokes.  That stuff is pretty straightforward and I don't have a lot of sympathy for those who fall foul of it.  (Although I think there's something to be said for letting people back down from fuck ups gracefully.  That's a two way street though.  It's not going to happen if people insist on doubling down when they're called on it).

If we're talking about people using different definitions of "racism" or "privilege" to the common usage then yes, I'm inclined to give a lot more leeway.  (But I dislike the use of subcultural language in political discussions anyway, for ideological reasons).
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Lokison

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Re: Have We Become What We Hate?
« Reply #17 on: February 21, 2015, 11:22:27 am »
Quote from: random417;171185
Personally, I don't need to fit in, except I couldn't match what the group wanted enough to have a discussion. Just my 2 cents, for what it's worth.

Seconded.  When I first started coming on here, there were some good debates and talk.  Now it feels to much of a Yes group.  Not much discussion, more of a Here is a group consensus.  

It why I poke back in and see whats going on every few days.  But truthfully, if I unbookmarked the forum, I'm not sure I would remember to check back.  :o
« Last Edit: February 21, 2015, 11:26:12 am by Lokison »
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Sefiru

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Re: Have We Become What We Hate?
« Reply #18 on: February 21, 2015, 08:00:46 pm »
Quote from: Jabberwocky;171253

If we're talking about people using different definitions of "racism" or "privilege" to the common usage then yes, I'm inclined to give a lot more leeway.  (But I dislike the use of subcultural language in political discussions anyway, for ideological reasons).


That was what I was thinking of, as well as the term "Social Justice" itself becoming much more common.

Adaire

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Re: Have We Become What We Hate?
« Reply #19 on: February 21, 2015, 10:20:48 pm »
Quote from: EJay;171176
[I've moved this thread to the Suggestions board as it fits better there. Note this is a thread in which you can speak your mind to the Co-Hosts without worrying about being considered rude or annoying -- Randall]

I've been visiting and posting on'n'off here for twenty-some-odd-years and I notice some changes here and in real-world.

I remember when we'd have some lively debates on ideas when people didn't have to watch every adverb and adjective and people didn't take offense quite so quickly at a contrary idea.  Opposing ideas were food for thought and folks weren't chastised for just not agreeing with the current in-crowd.

I still come here after all this time looking for new ideas and thoughts.  What I'm finding are posts where folks are carefully treading on eggshells so as not to be bombarded and chastised and to "fit in."  I love when someone disagrees with me and can give me legitimate reasons as to why.  It helps me grow in my own beliefs.

I'm not seeing lively debates of ideas.  I'm seeing people with differing ideas being bullied instead of being engaged.  I'm seeing people wanting to be accepted into a group rather than stand outside and question.  And I see those that question being given pat answers instead of thoughtful ones.

I found TC in 2008/2009 and would agree that the atmosphere has shifted more this direction. I mostly lurk largely for this reason. FYI, if you just can't see this being an issue here it's most likely because you are part of or on the fringes of the current in-crowd.

Liadine (dragonflyeyes)

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Re: Have We Become What We Hate?
« Reply #20 on: February 21, 2015, 10:59:52 pm »
Quote from: Adaire;171324
I found TC in 2008/2009 and would agree that the atmosphere has shifted more this direction. I mostly lurk largely for this reason. FYI, if you just can't see this being an issue here it's most likely because you are part of or on the fringes of the current in-crowd.

 
I definitely agree that it's shifted over the past few years, but I see that as reflecting a societal shift, rather than a Cauldron-only one.

Can I ask what about it makes you want to lurk rather than post? I'm just genuinely curious, speaking as someone who's also been around for quite a while but who is much more likely to post due to the shift in atmosphere.
We owe it to each other to tell stories [Neil Gaiman]
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EJay

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Re: Have We Become What We Hate?
« Reply #21 on: February 22, 2015, 01:59:02 am »
Quote from: RandallS;171200
Huh? I'm not following your reasoning here.


It was a stoopid way to try to engage, since many of us come from a Christian background.  My point, tho, was that paganism allows and encourages questioning and discussions whereas many of our churches don't.  And that's what I'm seeing here from some--squelching ideas instead of pursuing them.
If you understand, things are just as they are.  If you do not understand, things are just as they are.

EJay

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Re: Have We Become What We Hate?
« Reply #22 on: February 22, 2015, 02:07:28 am »
Quote from: Redfaery;171204
Well...no, not noticing that. I'm noticing that here at the Cauldron it's difficult for someone to voice casually homophobic, transphobic, ableist, etc. opinions without being called on it...and 20 years ago that probably wasn't the case, because awareness of those issues wasn't really a "thing" for most people.

 
I don't consider myself a racist or a bigot, but I'd like to ask questions that cross the boundary lines so that I can learn, understand, and still maybe disagree with.  I like uncomfortable questions.  But talk to me about your beliefs.  Don't yell at me and call me names.  I really do want to know why you think the way you do.
If you understand, things are just as they are.  If you do not understand, things are just as they are.

EJay

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Re: Have We Become What We Hate?
« Reply #23 on: February 22, 2015, 02:10:21 am »
Quote from: Darkhawk;171210
You keep saying this?  I'd like to quote the rules:

 
Let me be clear.  It's not about spelling or using "your" or "you're."  It's about having to sidestep your ideas so much so that the original idea gets lost for fear of offense.
If you understand, things are just as they are.  If you do not understand, things are just as they are.

EJay

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Re: Have We Become What We Hate?
« Reply #24 on: February 22, 2015, 02:23:03 am »
Quote from: Juni;171211
If you see bullying, you can report it. If you see pat answers, you can down-rep the poster. If you see a dearth of thoughtful responses, you can start making them. Be the change you wish to see, etcetera etcetera.

With every new member, with every new thread, with every new post, TC changes. The western culture in which TC primarily exists has changed since the forum's founding, and had we not changed with it, we would be an odd little relic of the internet, and possibly not even exist.

I don't think hand-wringing that "oh, we've changed" is going to do any good. The way I see it- don't like what you see? Make an effort to change it by reporting, repping, or directly engaging with problems, or accept that the culture is not what you want or need and move on.

 
I'm not a hand-wringer and I don't report.  I accept change. However, I'm not willing to move on when something as amazing as The Cauldron seems to have devolved into this.  I have learned so much from this forum--I've come here under many different tags because I've changed many different times.

Change happens.  It should.  That's why I keep coming back.  I get new ideas daily and I want to share and bounce them off of people.  A lot of my ideas cross the line on what's socially acceptable, but I still have the questions.

The Cauldron has always been a safe place to ask these questions and get thoughtful ideas.  I just see now a lot of PC--pagan correct--that limits the discussions.

I'd like to have conversations with the younger pagans who have differing and newer ideas, but it seems like if you use the wrong word, suddenly it becomes a reportable offense.
If you understand, things are just as they are.  If you do not understand, things are just as they are.

EJay

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Re: Have We Become What We Hate?
« Reply #25 on: February 22, 2015, 02:28:27 am »
Quote from: Jenett;171212
Here's the thing for me - yes, learning how to speak with attention to what I'm saying takes time and energy.


I'm not saying we should give up the power of words and language.  I'm saying we don't need to jump on a word or phrase and immediately take offense.  That squelches free speech and the tough questions that we all want answered won't have a chance to even be discussed.
If you understand, things are just as they are.  If you do not understand, things are just as they are.

EJay

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Re: Have We Become What We Hate?
« Reply #26 on: February 22, 2015, 02:34:26 am »
Quote from: Jack;171215
I left the Catholic church because I got crickets from Jesus (Crickets From Jesus is my Jars of Clay cover band) and I don't hate Christians so... no?

 
Okay.  It was stoopid on my part.  I apologize and please see my post to Randall.

But seriously, I don't remember reading about crickets in the bible.  Was that from a passage I missed? Jesus and Jiminy 12:54?
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EJay

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Re: Have We Become What We Hate?
« Reply #27 on: February 22, 2015, 02:45:17 am »
Quote from: Liadine (dragonflyeyes);171223

As for this having a chilling effect on debate in a forum like this, I'm genuinely confused about how that would work. It isn't difficult to replace an offensive word with a less offensive one (though I accept that the learning process can be steeper than some people recognize, and that derailing to educate happens, which I know is also being discussed in this thread), and in 99.9% of discussions it shouldn't make any difference to the opinion being expressed. If the topic isn't about social justice topics, why would someone be inserting their feelings about [x group] anyway? And, if the topic is about [x group] or social justice topics, then saying 'no, this is what I believe' isn't derailing, it's part of the debate.

 
Okay, you're making my point.  If I want to have a particular discussion, do I use the term:  queer, fag, lesbo, gay, homo.....

If I don't use the right word, don't take offense.  Knock that chip off your shoulder and talk to me.
If you understand, things are just as they are.  If you do not understand, things are just as they are.

EJay

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Re: Have We Become What We Hate?
« Reply #28 on: February 22, 2015, 02:59:42 am »
Quote from: Jabberwocky;171253
It depends on the specifics.

Back in the early noughties, I was still fully aware that you didn't use homophobic slurs or tell racist jokes.  That stuff is pretty straightforward and I don't have a lot of sympathy for those who fall foul of it.  (Although I think there's something to be said for letting people back down from fuck ups gracefully.  That's a two way street though.  It's not going to happen if people insist on doubling down when they're called on it).

If we're talking about people using different definitions of "racism" or "privilege" to the common usage then yes, I'm inclined to give a lot more leeway.  (But I dislike the use of subcultural language in political discussions anyway, for ideological reasons).

 
I play World of Warcraft.  We have a very diverse group of old fogies in my guild.  One of the guys always comes on and says, "Hey, white people, whassup?"  He's a Mexican Jew.  One of us always has an answer.  But there's never any offense because we're not looking for one.  It's all in good humor.  Think of "Gran Torino."

My point in all of this is to try to get us back to having open discussions and not be so ready to jump on the "I'm offended" train.

I see that y'all have some very cool ideas and as I'm now in my downward side of life, I have questions that don't always have easy answers.  There are tough questions that I want to talk about, but if I'm jumped on because I use the wrong word, that helps no one.
If you understand, things are just as they are.  If you do not understand, things are just as they are.

Jack

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Re: Have We Become What We Hate?
« Reply #29 on: February 22, 2015, 03:10:35 am »
Quote from: EJay;171339
Okay, you're making my point.  If I want to have a particular discussion, do I use the term:  queer, fag, lesbo, gay, homo.....

If I don't use the right word, don't take offense.  Knock that chip off your shoulder and talk to me.

Short answer: maybe, only if you're British and need a smoke, no, sure and no. ;) See, no yelling necessary! Thanks for asking.

I am now incredibly curious what pagan subjects you want to discuss that might require the use of any of those words. If you make the thread I promise to respond to your ideas.
Hail Mara, Lady of Good Things!
"The only way to cope with something deadly serious is to try to treat it a little lightly." -Madeleine L'Engle

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