Shamanism and the term "shamanism" in Heathenry

[hlewagastir]

Hey folks,

I recently attended a Viking Age Reading Group on the university which had, among a lot of good stuff, some talk about the trancework in the sagas which were labled "shamanism" by several of the participants.
Academics can be wrong too of cause.

Anyway, I want to ask you guys if you think we should use the term, when dealing with Norse sources, to lable some of the rituals and trancework and characters, or should we lable it as trancework, souljourneys and so on instead?

[Nachtigall]

Hey folks,

I recently attended a Viking Age Reading Group on the university which had, among a lot of good stuff, some talk about the trancework in the sagas which were labled "shamanism" by several of the participants.
Academics can be wrong too of cause.

Anyway, I want to ask you guys if you think we should use the term, when dealing with Norse sources, to lable some of the rituals and trancework and characters, or should we lable it as trancework, souljourneys and so on instead?

 
Wasn't it common though, to use the term "shamanism" when referring to all practices of this kind, not limited to Siberian cultures? Eliade's work comes to mind, among others, which also talks of "Greek Shamanism", "Norse Shamanism" etc.

[Holdasown]

Hey folks,

I recently attended a Viking Age Reading Group on the university which had, among a lot of good stuff, some talk about the trancework in the sagas which were labled "shamanism" by several of the participants.
Academics can be wrong too of cause.

Anyway, I want to ask you guys if you think we should use the term, when dealing with Norse sources, to lable some of the rituals and trancework and characters, or should we lable it as trancework, souljourneys and so on instead?

Shamanism is a pretty accurate description of what they are doing so I am not sure why the word would not apply. Especially if those who are honoring the Norse gods/goddesses are calling themselves that.

[Owl]

Wasn't it common though, to use the term "shamanism" when referring to all practices of this kind, not limited to Siberian cultures? Eliade's work comes to mind, among others, which also talks of "Greek Shamanism", "Norse Shamanism" etc.

 
Exactly.  The term shamanism is often used by the 'intelligensia' (for want of a better word) to describe a group of activities.  Some people find this offensive, but it seems to have become common usage - and by PhD"s not just Joe Blow - over the years.  And really, if you cannot use that term, what term DO you use that is readily recognizable as referring to that group of activities?

[Nyktipolos]

Some people find this offensive, but it seems to have become common usage - and by PhD"s not just Joe Blow - over the years.

Just because a word is in common usage does not make it any less offensive to the group it is offending.

Plus, there are a number of words like these that people are actively trying to dissuade others from using.

And really, if you cannot use that term, what term DO you use that is readily recognizable as referring to that group of activities?

 
We've talked about this on the old before. You might try searching up "technician of the sacred" and "liminalist". Of course, people are free to come up with their own terms.

I've hit a point, personally, where what many white, western pagans today call shamanism is their own thing with an appropriated name. It has very little true links back to the Siberian shamans besides a name and a general commonality with what's called "core shamanism" today.

I have similar feels about totem/doodem.

[hlewagastir]

Shamanism is a pretty accurate description of what they are doing so I am not sure why the word would not apply. Especially if those who are honoring the Norse gods/goddesses are calling themselves that.

Shamanism might apply to some of what Odin is doing, but otherwise I don´t really see it in the sources... And Odin is a god (of death) not a shaman.

And really, if you cannot use that term, what term DO you use that is readily recognizable as referring to that group of activities?

Trancework? Souljourneys? Call it Volvaism?

[Maps]

Just because a word is in common usage does not make it any less offensive to the group it is offending.

Plus, there are a number of words like these that people are actively trying to dissuade others from using.


 
We've talked about this on the old before. You might try searching up "technician of the sacred" and "liminalist". Of course, people are free to come up with their own terms.

I've hit a point, personally, where what many white, western pagans today call shamanism is their own thing with an appropriated name. It has very little true links back to the Siberian shamans besides a name and a general commonality with what's called "core shamanism" today.

I have similar feels about totem/doodem.

 
I agree that "shamanism" as an academic term is more a categorical label and used as a point of reference for other cultures, but that ultimately the culture's word for the practice is what should be used because they are all ultimately unique. They don't all work with the same symbols, the same tools, the same spirits, the same religio-cultural systems, etc.

Using "Norse" as a qualifier doesn't really help, IMO, so I fully endorse the idea of using a word that's relevant to Heathens and the cultures it draws from in naming this set of practices if it didn't have a name already.

[Holdasown]

Shamanism might apply to some of what Odin is doing, but otherwise I don´t really see it in the sources... And Odin is a god (of death) not a shaman.



Trancework? Souljourneys? Call it Volvaism?

Whatever.

[iulla]

I agree that "shamanism" as an academic term is more a categorical label and used as a point of reference for other cultures, but that ultimately the culture's word for the practice is what should be used because they are all ultimately unique. They don't all work with the same symbols, the same tools, the same spirits, the same religio-cultural systems, etc.

Using "Norse" as a qualifier doesn't really help, IMO, so I fully endorse the idea of using a word that's relevant to Heathens and the cultures it draws from in naming this set of practices if it didn't have a name already.

This.

The word "Shaman" comes from the Evenki language of people who lived in area of Siberia (and other languages), and it's a word that describes their beliefs.  To use it to describe the practices of other cultures - whether or not they are similar in nature - isn't exactly right.  I agree that we should try and use the words from each culture.

And when modern pagans go around saying "I'm a shaman!", that gets my goat :/  Unless you were born into that culture and underwent the initiations (for want of a better word, help me out here!), you aren't a shaman.  A shamanic practitioner, maybe, but not a shaman.

[SunflowerP]

I agree that "shamanism" as an academic term is more a categorical label and used as a point of reference for other cultures, but that ultimately the culture's word for the practice is what should be used because they are all ultimately unique. They don't all work with the same symbols, the same tools, the same spirits, the same religio-cultural systems, etc.

 
And for exactly those reasons, it's an outdated academic term, at least in fields like anthropology that deal directly with it.  Current practice (so I understand from Catja) is to use the word(s) used in the culture in question - there's much more emphasis on understanding cultural practices by understanding how they fit into that culture, and far less emphasis on using comparisons with other cultures.  Trying to understand the practices of Culture A by saying, "Hey, Culture B does something a bit like that!" really isn't very efffective; it's superficial at best and can be very misleading.

It's entirely possible for academics who are in fields that don't deal directly with it to not have got the word, though - an academic is only an expert in their own field; in fields not their own, they're just another layperson.

Sunflower

[Trollkarl]

Hey folks,

I recently attended a Viking Age Reading Group on the university which had, among a lot of good stuff, some talk about the trancework in the sagas which were labled "shamanism" by several of the participants.
Academics can be wrong too of cause.

Anyway, I want to ask you guys if you think we should use the term, when dealing with Norse sources, to lable some of the rituals and trancework and characters, or should we lable it as trancework, souljourneys and so on instead?

As with so many things, the term is both accurate in the gross sense, but inaccurate in the specific.

We should encourage the use of more culturally and linguistically accurate terms of art, for which there are no exact translations, rather than relying on such inaccurate and baggage-laden terms such as "shamanism" and "witchcraft".

I try to use specific terms of art such as seið, völva, galdʀ, trolldomʀ, etc. They require additional explanation, but they are not only more precise and without incorrect associations, but the explanation in and of itself becomes an opportunity to teach.

Frankly, terms like "shamanism" and "witchcraft" are ultimately sloppy and inaccurate, especially when applied to Nordic magical practices. I'm not at all concerned with who might be offended by the use of the terms; they are adults and if we stick to the specific terminology that we need, they can weed out the rest who insist on using terms like "shamanism" loosely. Not my job to police others on their behalf.

[hlewagastir]

Whatever.

 
:whis:

We should encourage the use of more culturally and linguistically accurate terms of art, for which there are no exact translations, rather than relying on such inaccurate and baggage-laden terms such as "shamanism" and "witchcraft".

I try to use specific terms of art such as seið, völva, galdʀ, trolldomʀ, etc. They require additional explanation, but they are not only more precise and without incorrect associations, but the explanation in and of itself becomes an opportunity to teach.

Frankly, terms like "shamanism" and "witchcraft" are ultimately sloppy and inaccurate, especially when applied to Nordic magical practices.

Agreed.

My main problem with the term is that all the practices you mention are radicallly different from actual shamanism.

And for exactly those reasons, it's an outdated academic term, at least in fields like anthropology that deal directly with it.  Current practice (so I understand from Catja) is to use the word(s) used in the culture in question - there's much more emphasis on understanding cultural practices by understanding how they fit into that culture, and far less emphasis on using comparisons with other cultures.  Trying to understand the practices of Culture A by saying, "Hey, Culture B does something a bit like that!" really isn't very efffective; it's superficial at best and can be very misleading.

It's entirely possible for academics who are in fields that don't deal directly with it to not have got the word, though - an academic is only an expert in their own field; in fields not their own, they're just another layperson.

 
That might have been the problem. There were a lot of historians at the meeting but no anthropologists (and only an undergraduate in religious studies).
It would not surprise me if fields where the religious interaction with society are more important than the religion itself can be behind in things like this.

[Holdasown]

..

Let's be real honest, when it come to Heathen practitioners anything remotely UPG is shunned and in some cases called false outright. If a person identifies themselves as a shaman or shamanic practitioner then I am not going to call them a liar or false. That is arrogance.

I know some are more specific with the terms they use and some choose shaman due to their practices since it's not seidr or galdr by definition.

[hlewagastir]

Let's be real honest, when it come to Heathen practitioners anything remotely UPG is shunned and in some cases called false outright.

 
In discussions on historic heathenry, and/or heathenry in a historic context, UPG is generally not give as much weight as well supported arguments.

If a person identifies themselves as a shaman or shamanic practitioner then I am not going to call them a liar or false. That is arrogance.

I´m also glad anyone in this thread has not done any of that...

I know some are more specific with the terms they use and some choose shaman due to their practices since it's not seidr or galdr by definition.

People can practice Core shamanism and traditional shamanisme as much as they like IMO.

[Holdasown]

In discussions on historic heathenry, and/or heathenry in a historic context, UPG is generally not give as much weight as well supported arguments.



I´m also glad anyone in this thread has not done any of that...



People can practice Core shamanism and traditional shamanisme as much as they like IMO.

Sure they have several times. It's ok I am withdrawing from this SIG as far as posting and will keep my posts on the gods to an appropriate place.