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Author Topic: Problems with Heathenry  (Read 2566 times)

Jack

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Re: Problems with Heathenry
« Reply #15 on: April 05, 2018, 07:05:05 pm »


1.   Heathenism is naturally very volkish

How so?

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corrosivesquid

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Re: Problems with Heathenry
« Reply #16 on: April 10, 2018, 08:30:42 pm »


Well I think the same reason why some groups get mad if a white pagan does "cultural appropriation" is the reason why the people who feel the same way who are white will be drawn to the more volkish side of things.    (That this is our thing and not yours)

The other things is that

1.   Heathenism is naturally very volkish
2.   The racial side also comes from Prison conversions, where whites felt they needed to band together for protection.
3.   Connection to Scandi Death Metal music and some of the racial aspects.


How is Heathenry naturally volkish? I've never read about that before (unless the Information already comes from a white nationalist group). The heathens I know have never mentioned anything like that to me.

Prison gangs, I find, are often more Christian, at least here in America. We talked about them a lot in my prisons and prisoners class when I was in undergrad. Many of the larger known ones at least.

I've never heard of Heathenry having a connection to Scandi Death Metal either. I know some of my Heathen friends listen to metal but it was always more of coincidence to me than a causation. Maybe I just know strange Heathens?


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Re: Problems with Heathenry
« Reply #17 on: April 11, 2018, 12:46:39 am »

How is Heathenry naturally volkish? I've never read about that before (unless the Information already comes from a white nationalist group). The heathens I know have never mentioned anything like that to me.

Prison gangs, I find, are often more Christian, at least here in America. We talked about them a lot in my prisons and prisoners class when I was in undergrad. Many of the larger known ones at least.

I've never heard of Heathenry having a connection to Scandi Death Metal either. I know some of my Heathen friends listen to metal but it was always more of coincidence to me than a causation. Maybe I just know strange Heathens?


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Naturally volkish?  Maybe not in the Nazi way, so much as family/clan/tribe.  It depends on the heathen group.

Prison gangs?  Absolutely. I didn’t learn in a class. I asked my step brother who recently got out after almost 30 years in prison. He absolutely verified that heathen prison gangs are a thing.

As for scandi death metal, for some it would be connected. I’m not such a big fan myself, but I’m 60 years old next week, and that maybe part of it.


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Darkhawk

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Re: Problems with Heathenry
« Reply #18 on: April 11, 2018, 09:53:36 am »
Naturally volkish?  Maybe not in the Nazi way, so much as family/clan/tribe.  It depends on the heathen group.

"Volkish" as a word is at best proto-Nazi - it refers to the idea of a sort of ethnic/romantic nationalist essence which distinguished between peoples that was very popular in the 1800s.
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RandallS

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Re: Problems with Heathenry
« Reply #19 on: April 11, 2018, 02:45:17 pm »
Naturally volkish?  Maybe not in the Nazi way, so much as family/clan/tribe.  It depends on the heathen group.

In my experience, the Germanish term "volkish" is generally used by racist heathens. The standard English "folkish" is less likely to automatically imply "racist".
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Owl

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Problems with Heathenry
« Reply #20 on: April 11, 2018, 04:10:08 pm »
"Volkish" as a word is at best proto-Nazi - it refers to the idea of a sort of ethnic/romantic nationalist essence which distinguished between peoples that was very popular in the 1800s.
Yes. What I was trying, and failing, to point out is that (as Randall puts it) the folkish idea is a part of non-racist heathenry. 

Note to self- don’t post right before sleeping. Bad brain function!!!

And learn to type!!

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Darkhawk

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Re: Problems with Heathenry
« Reply #21 on: April 11, 2018, 05:16:42 pm »
In my experience, the Germanish term "volkish" is generally used by racist heathens. The standard English "folkish" is less likely to automatically imply "racist".

... I've mostly seen it in the context of "only white people allowed", so I'm not sure how much less likely that "less likely" is even if I technically agree with you?
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EnderDragonFire

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Re: Problems with Heathenry
« Reply #22 on: April 11, 2018, 08:18:24 pm »
I want to know what others (mainly other heathens) think of these issues and this idea of "No such thing as a good heathen".

What do I think? I think it's freaking disguising. Saying "No such thing as a good heathen" is *literally* the same as saying "no such thing as a good Christian," "no such thing as a good Jew," or "no such thing as a good Muslim"

YES, some Heathens are white supremacists. It's also true that some Muslim are terrorists and some Christians are members of the Ku Klux Klan. Grouping an entire faith tradition together and universally condemning them based on the actions of a few is downright EVIL!
"The worshippers of the gods go to them; to the manes go the ancestor-worshippers; to the Deities who preside over the elements go their worshippers; My devotees come to Me." ... "Whichever devotee desires to adore whatever such Deity with faith, in all such votaries I make that particular faith unshakable. Endowed with that faith, a votary performs the worship of that particular deity and obtains the fruits thereof, these being granted by Me alone." - Sri Krishna

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Re: Problems with Heathenry
« Reply #23 on: April 11, 2018, 08:21:40 pm »
What do I think? I think it's freaking disguising. Saying "No such thing as a good heathen" is *literally* the same as saying "no such thing as a good Christian," "no such thing as a good Jew," or "no such thing as a good Muslim"

YES, some Heathens are white supremacists. It's also true that some Muslim are terrorists and some Christians are members of the Ku Klux Klan. Grouping an entire faith tradition together and universally condemning them based on the actions of a few is downright EVIL!
Exactly!


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EnderDragonFire

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Re: Problems with Heathenry
« Reply #24 on: April 11, 2018, 08:24:08 pm »
Or maybe there are other issues in Heathenry which are specifically attractive to racists? I may have to think more deeply on this question.

I think, as an educated guess, it's because of the Nazis.

You see, the Nazis were German. They saw German heritage and history (not Greek, or Roman, or Slavic, etc.) as the best and most important heritage. So, those Nazis who were drawn to paganism naturally chose Germanic paganism as their path. This was actually surprisingly widespread in the Third Reich, and the Nazis adopted many Norse and Germanic symbols.

Because of this, there is now an indelible link in the minds of racists, many of whom admire and wish to emulate the Nazis, between their beliefs and those of the ancient Germans. It doesn't matter that this link is artificial and has no basis in history. Odin is a racist symbol the same reason the Swastika is a racist symbol; because racists decided he should be, and insist on continuing to use him as such.
"The worshippers of the gods go to them; to the manes go the ancestor-worshippers; to the Deities who preside over the elements go their worshippers; My devotees come to Me." ... "Whichever devotee desires to adore whatever such Deity with faith, in all such votaries I make that particular faith unshakable. Endowed with that faith, a votary performs the worship of that particular deity and obtains the fruits thereof, these being granted by Me alone." - Sri Krishna

corrosivesquid

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Re: Problems with Heathenry
« Reply #25 on: April 11, 2018, 10:44:39 pm »
What do I think? I think it's freaking disguising. Saying "No such thing as a good heathen" is *literally* the same as saying "no such thing as a good Christian," "no such thing as a good Jew," or "no such thing as a good Muslim"

YES, some Heathens are white supremacists. It's also true that some Muslim are terrorists and some Christians are members of the Ku Klux Klan. Grouping an entire faith tradition together and universally condemning them based on the actions of a few is downright EVIL!
That was my thoughts as well. I told them they were stooping down to the same level of those they claim to hate and left. They were very elitist and I wasn't going to be a part of that

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corrosivesquid

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Re: Problems with Heathenry
« Reply #26 on: April 11, 2018, 10:52:10 pm »


Naturally volkish?  Maybe not in the Nazi way, so much as family/clan/tribe.  It depends on the heathen group.

Prison gangs?  Absolutely. I didn’t learn in a class. I asked my step brother who recently got out after almost 30 years in prison. He absolutely verified that heathen prison gangs are a thing.

As for scandi death metal, for some it would be connected. I’m not such a big fan myself, but I’m 60 years old next week, and that maybe part of it.


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I'm not sure I would use the term "naturally volkish" due to the implications of the word. They are definetly tribe and hearth oriented though, but that doesn't imply that the tribe is "white people only", just that outsiders of the tribe in general aren't well trusted.

I wasn't trying to say there were no heathen prison gangs, I apologize if it came across that way. More of a "I've heard of the largely Christian ones and a few others" kind of way.

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RandallS

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Re: Problems with Heathenry
« Reply #27 on: April 12, 2018, 06:57:21 am »
... I've mostly seen it in the context of "only white people allowed", so I'm not sure how much less likely that "less likely" is even if I technically agree with you?

It's more like while volkish always seems to announce "racist heathen" so it is safe to assume using volkish to describe one's beliefs means "racist" at best and more often often "white supremacist", a few heathens use "folkish" in its not necessarily racist meaning of "family and friends first ethics" so its not really safe to automatically assume someone describing themselves as a "folkish heathen" is a racist heathen. Something like the notes the SPLC has to put on some symbols in their list of racist symbols that they also have non-racist usage.
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EnderDragonFire

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Re: Problems with Heathenry
« Reply #28 on: April 12, 2018, 01:24:34 pm »
Something like the notes the SPLC has to put on some symbols in their list of racist symbols that they also have non-racist usage.

I have to point out that they do a very poor job of that! Many of the symbols that are *not* marked as being sometimes acceptable actually are.
"The worshippers of the gods go to them; to the manes go the ancestor-worshippers; to the Deities who preside over the elements go their worshippers; My devotees come to Me." ... "Whichever devotee desires to adore whatever such Deity with faith, in all such votaries I make that particular faith unshakable. Endowed with that faith, a votary performs the worship of that particular deity and obtains the fruits thereof, these being granted by Me alone." - Sri Krishna

Megatherium

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Re: Problems with Heathenry
« Reply #29 on: April 12, 2018, 03:21:37 pm »
I think, as an educated guess, it's because of the Nazis.

You see, the Nazis were German. They saw German heritage and history (not Greek, or Roman, or Slavic, etc.) as the best and most important heritage. So, those Nazis who were drawn to paganism naturally chose Germanic paganism as their path. This was actually surprisingly widespread in the Third Reich, and the Nazis adopted many Norse and Germanic symbols.

Because of this, there is now an indelible link in the minds of racists, many of whom admire and wish to emulate the Nazis, between their beliefs and those of the ancient Germans. It doesn't matter that this link is artificial and has no basis in history. Odin is a racist symbol the same reason the Swastika is a racist symbol; because racists decided he should be, and insist on continuing to use him as such.

Yeah, fuck Nazis, they really pissed all over the revival of Heathenry before it could even get going.

I think, to some extent, this is also influenced by the historical experiences and perceptions of different types of European paganism. Classical pagan traditions had been part of the general European-Christian overculture for a long time before the Romantic revival got ahold of them, and so although those religions can and have been used in nationalistic ways, in a sense they often played a role of a common heritage for many ethnic groups in Europe and are therefore less associated with one specific type of nationalism.

Celtic, Baltic and Finnish traditions, in contrast, are associated with groups that  were marginalized within Europe, and to the extent that they have been associated with nationalism, it is more of the defensive, "stop fucking with us" nationalism rather than the imperialistic "we will crush everyone who isn't us" type of nationalism.
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